AZ govener to Obama - We'll see you in court

[IndyColtsFan]

You don't have to commit any offense to be stopped.

The police are not allowed to stop you just because they think you might be illegal. They must first stop you for another reason -- speeding, weaving on the roads, etc.

 

[flavio]

Nice dodge and diversion. You didn't answer my question though.

You're question was irrelevant. If the the majority of cops don't abuse it and a minority do there's still a big problem.

I didn't say they did; I implied that you trusted them making decisions about your health care.

My healthcare is not affected by the bill.

Kind of like you obviously don't understand this one, with one exception -- I did understand the health care bill.

I understand the AZ law. You've made it obvious that you didn't understand healthcare.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Give away your rights and trust them not to abuse it. Brilliant plan there. Pretty anti-American but you know....whatever.

You mean like we did with health care?

You are an alarmist. You dodged my questions and continue diverting, so I don't know why I bother. What prevents cops from abusing ANY law on the books?

 

[flavio]

The police are not allowed to stop you just because they think you might be illegal.

Who said that?

They must first stop you for another reason -- speeding, weaving on the roads, etc.

Yes, there should be some reason. You need not commit any offense though to be stopped.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

You're question was irrelevant. If the the majority of cops don't abuse it and a minority do there's still a big problem.

It is "Your," FYI.

It is entirely relevant. By your ridiculous logic, ANY law presents a BIG problem since there is a huge potential for the police to abuse it. Again, what prevents them from abusing them?

My healthcare is not affected by the bill.

LOL. Talk to me in a few years.

I understand the AZ law. You've made it obvious that you didn't understand healthcare.

I do understand health care and unlike you, know what was passed was terrible.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Who said that?

<sigh> You do realize the law was changed, right? In its original form, they could stop you if they suspected you're an illegal, but that is no longer the case.

Yes, there should be some reason. You need not commit any offense though to be stopped.

As I said, they have to have a reason to pull you over. They cannot legally pull you over because they think you're here illegally. It is similar to the seat belt law in some states -- they can't pull you over if they see you're not wearing it, but if you get pulled over for something else and they see you're not wearing it, you will be fined.

 

[flavio]

You mean like we did with health care?

I didn't give up any rights with healthcare.

You are an alarmist.

You are a fascist.

What prevents cops from abusing ANY law on the books?

Your argument is something like "any new law is fine because cops could abuse existing laws already". Doesn't work.

 

[flavio]

<sigh> You do realize the law was changed, right? In its original form, they could stop you if they suspected you're an illegal, but that is no longer the case.

Great! My argument had nothing to do with this.

As I said, they have to have a reason to pull you over. They cannot legally pull you over because they think you're here illegally.

Who said that?

 

[IndyColtsFan]

I didn't give up any rights with healthcare.

Really? That's interesting. What if you don't want to pay for health care? What happens then?

Your argument is something like "any new law is fine because cops could abuse existing laws already". Doesn't work.

Except, of course, that similar laws have been on the books for years and the federal government has not bothered enforcing them.

You guys are hysterical. What "rights" are you giving up?

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Great! My argument had nothing to do with this.

OK, let's take a step back and get some clarification. If I understand you correctly, you keep insisting police will keep pulling people over if they look Hispanic, for example.

Is this what you're saying or not? If not, then why are you arguing?

http://www.cis.org/announcement/AZ-immigration-SB1070

The law only allows police to ask about immigration status in the normal course of &#8220;lawful contact&#8221; with a person, such as a traffic stop or if they have committed a crime.

 

[flavio]

Really? That's interesting. What if you don't want to pay for health care? What happens then?

Pay a fine. I agree that a single payer system would have been better but the insurance companies have too much lobbying power at the moment.

Except, of course, that similar laws have been on the books for years and the federal government has not bothered enforcing them.

Similar, except different.

You guys are hysterical. What "rights" are you giving up?

Can'tleave the house without your papers for fear of being detained by police. My daughter doesn't carry anything but a school but a school ID and she usually doesn't have that on her.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Pay a fine. I agree that a single payer system would have been better but the insurance companies have too much lobbying power at the moment.

Hmm, so you're forced to buy health insurance or pay a fine. That sounds like a loss of freedom to me.

Can'tleave the house without your papers for fear of being detained by police. My daughter doesn't carry anything but a school but a school ID and she usually doesn't have that on her.

Do you live in Arizona? If not, which state?

 

[flavio]

you keep insisting police will keep pulling people over if they look Hispanic, for example.

Never said anything similar. Not sure why you would think that.

Is this what you're saying or not? If not, then why are you arguing?

Because all people in AZ or traveling through are now subject to detainment if they don't have papers on them that prove their legal status. Less freedom.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Never said anything similar. Not sure why you would think that.

Then I apologize, as I must have confused you with another poster.

Because all people in AZ or traveling through are now subject to detainment if they don't have papers on them that prove their legal status. Less freedom.

I do understand where you're coming from on this, believe it or not. It is just that I feel the law is worth the risk at this point. As I mentioned in another thread, I would've preferred that Arizona not passed this law and that the Fed fulfilled its obligation, but that isn't what happened.

 

[flavio]

I do understand where you're coming from on this, believe it or not. It is just that I feel the law is worth the risk at this point. As I mentioned in another thread, I would've preferred that Arizona not passed this law and that the Fed fulfilled its obligation, but that isn't what happened.

Great! Some sort of common ground. You feel like it's a necessary evil. I do not. At least we both recognize what it is.

I would prefer to see them go after the companies that employ illegals.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

I'd like to see Arizona and the other border states sue the federal government to make the federal government reimburse those states for the costs of illegal immigration.

 

[blackangst1]

Great! Some sort of common ground. You feel like it's a necessary evil. I do not. At least we both recognize what it is.

I would prefer to see them go after the companies that employ illegals.

We are. Problem is, Obama and Co are trying to get rid of THAT, too.

 

[palehorse]

I would prefer to see them go after the companies that employ illegals.

If only Obama & Co. felt the same as you... it appears as though they won't let states do that either.

It's fucking disgusting to witness such a disconnected, inept, and impotent Federal Government after 200+ years of giving them more and more power/control every day.

 

[bob4432]

If only Obama & Co. felt the same as you... it appears as though they won't let states do that either.

It's fucking disgusting to witness such a disconnected, inept, and impotent Federal Government after 200+ years of giving them more and more power/control every day.

at this point, i really don't think "we the people" are giving anymore, it is just the gov machine is taking, taking & taking

 

[OutHouse]

Originally Posted by flavio View Post
This law gives them ability to take anyone's rights away. I'm walking through some town in AZ and a police officer says "I smell weed, stop and give me your papers". All I have is my CA driver's license. Not good enough. I'm detained until I can get someone to break in my house and mail me my birth certificate

total bullshit. you are completely drunk on the hysteria kookaid

 

[spidey07]

at this point, i really don't think "we the people" are giving anymore, it is just the gov machine is taking, taking & taking

So do something about it. Get involved - volunteer, donate. Talk to your friends. You CAN stop this. Don't let your frustration turn into apathy, turn it into action. Get motivated.

We can't do a whole lot of protesting because we have these things called jobs. But our efforts can be placed in better ways.

 

[flavio]

It's fucking disgusting to witness such a disconnected, inept, and impotent Federal Government after 200+ years of giving them more and more power/control every day.

I don't agree with everything the feds to but it's a damn sight better than what we had a few years ago.

 

[flavio]

total bullshit. you are completely drunk on the hysteria kookaid

Learn a little bit of facts before you start spouting idiotic crap.

It already happened before the law was even passed.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/art...r_Handcuffed_Forced_to_Show_Birth_Certificate

The truck driver's offense? Stopping at a weigh station. Only having his commercial driver's license on him.

 

[flavio]

at this point, i really don't think "we the people" are giving anymore, it is just the gov machine is taking, taking & taking

Yes, AZ is certainly taking some freedom.

 

[bob4432]

So do something about it. Get involved - volunteer, donate. Talk to your friends. You CAN stop this. Don't let your frustration turn into apathy, turn it into action. Get motivated.

We can't do a whole lot of protesting because we have these things called jobs. But our efforts can be placed in better ways.

i do all of the above w/ the exception of volunteering, just making a general statement. have been fighting the gov in one form or another since 1999 - contacting my reps, contacting other gov critters that don't rep me, both state and fed, talking to friends, donating to those i feel can make a difference, etc.

mostly my comment was more of an observation of how the admin has been doing stuff that is against the wishes desires of more than 50% of the country.

health care, cap & trade?, reg this, etc.