Autoworkers: 'If we go down, so does this town'

Jul 10, 2007
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NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- For the average American, this recession is scary enough.

If you're an auto worker in Kokomo, Ind., living in a town with nearly 20% unemployment and working for a company that could go belly up any day, it's downright terrifying.

"It's gloom and doom around here," said Rick Ward, a union steward standing outside a Chrysler transmission factory at quitting time. "We're just hoping it stays open. There aren't a lot of other opportunities here in central Indiana."

"We don't know what to expect," Cliff Pitcher, an electrician for Chrysler, said over a beer at a local bar.
0:00 /2:52Auto town risks extinction

Given the state of the industry, a permanent shutdown is not out of the question. And that would indeed be bad news for this car town of 45,000 people an hours drive north of Indianapolis. Nearly a quarter of Kokomo's workforce is employed in the auto sector, mostly at four Chrysler plants and a Delphi factory, the former electronics arm of General Motors.

If Delphi, currently in bankruptcy, and Chrysler closed their doors tomorrow, the town could be looking at an unemployment rate of 40%.
Staying optimistic

Despite that grim prospect, town officials remain upbeat.

"Everything is coming at us much faster than we had hoped," said Mayor Greg Goodnight. "But we've seen factories come and go. In the long run we will prevail."

Goodnight and other local officials have embarked on an aggressive attempt to lure new business to town. They've also trimmed the city's budget in the face of falling tax revenue.

Ultimately they're hoping the plants won't close outright. They believe Delphi is well positioned to emerge from bankruptcy, and that Chrysler's plants may be picked up by another automaker should the firm close shop.
0:00 /1:45Auto repair business is booming

It's an optimism that's not universally shared.

"When Chrysler and Delphi do close, I don't think we're going to see people spending any money," said Troy Black, owner of Kokomo Paint and Body. "We're headed for a major hurt."

Oddly enough for Black, the recession has actually been good for his business, as people pay to fix old cars rather than buy new ones.

But other local business are bound to suffer.

"If I don't have a job, and my co-workers don't have a job, we're not going to be spending anything," said Pitcher, the electrician.
A bare-knuckled fight

For auto workers, the answer to the problems in America's auto industry is certainly not bankruptcy - which would likely result in a renegotiation of union contracts. In Kokomo, the average union wage is about $60,000 a year, not bad in a place where the average home price is $75,000.

But the workers see bankruptcy as a rip-off.

"Do you know what bankruptcy is," asked Pitcher. "Union busting."

Ward agreed, although he did say the workers realize they may have to take further pay or benefit cuts to keep the industry alive.

The auto workers seem to want what the auto executives have been asking for - and getting - for the past several months: Money from the government to hold them over until they can reorganize their business and the economy improves.

Moreover, they resent that Wall Street has been handed billions of dollars with relatively little oversight while the auto industry has been hounded by Washington. "If they can give these banks $780 billion and then tell us no, then they are God dammed sons of bitches," Pitcher said.

If the auto industry leaves Kokomo, then the auto workers say everyone else will too.

"If we go down, the whole town goes down," said Pitcher.

Not everyone in town feels that way.

"I think there's more diversity in this town than people give it credit for," said one resident, having a micro-brew at an upscale pub. "There's more here than just the auto industry."

The resident did not want to be named, saying that tempers on this issue can run hot.

looks likely to happen with the way things are going at chrysler.

their wages are way out of line for what (little) they do and for their CoL. that would be the equivalent of me making $400k.

the workers are seemingly willing to make concessions but the unions aren't. damn unions crippling the big 3...
 

Newbian

Lifer
Aug 24, 2008
24,779
882
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Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Probably not a good time to visit there in my Nissan, my Lexus, or my Suzuki Motorcycle?

Only if you have a bumper sticker saying to buy American. ;)
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,748
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WTF are you talking about. The Unions have been making concessions. Even if the Workers worked for Free Chrysler would still be operating in the red.
 

MovingTarget

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2003
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Blaming unions here is pretty short-sighted. The unions have made concessions far more than management and the stock/bondholders. Chrysler (and the other domestics) have much bigger problems than union pay/benefits. Even if we suddenly outlawed unions and immedeately reset pay/benefits to the non-union standards, we'd still be in the same position, just without the scapegoat.

It is sad to hear about that town though. The loss of a manufacturing plant will hit any community pretty hard, so to hear that one will not recover in the event of a possible shutdown isn't surprising. Hell, look at a lot of smaller towns that are nearly deserted when all the textile mills left for Mexico and South America. There really isn't any difference, imho.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
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I don't really care if some town in Indiana "goes down". They need to pick a more compelling argument.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
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"If I don't have a job, and my co-workers don't have a job, we're not going to be spending anything," said Pitcher, the electrician.

How about that. Funny how other people do things called....Oh I don't know....finding a new job? Is that just not an option? God forbid you be forced to compete with other laborers.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
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Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Originally posted by: lupi
60k a year, that's it?

Lazy bastards should work for $15K a year and be grateful.
Or get a job in IT for $50K a year and spend most of their time at work here bitching about Union Workers.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
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A lot of you guys need to realize that if a whole bunch of autoworkers lose their jobs, that the burden of their support could mean that your mom may have to cut your allowance.

 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
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Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Originally posted by: lupi
60k a year, that's it?

Lazy bastards should work for $15K a year and be grateful.
Or get a job in IT for $50K a year and spend most of their time at work here bitching about Union Workers.

Don't gloat: you guys are next on my list.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Originally posted by: lupi
60k a year, that's it?

Lazy bastards should work for $15K a year and be grateful.
Or get a job in IT for $50K a year and spend most of their time at work here bitching about Union Workers.

Don't gloat: you guys are next on my list.
Doesn't bother me, I sell cheap Chinese made products to Latin Americans who may or may not be here in the states legally. In essence I'm working the system.
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
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Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Originally posted by: lupi
60k a year, that's it?

Lazy bastards should work for $15K a year and be grateful.
Or get a job in IT for $50K a year and spend most of their time at work here bitching about Union Workers.

Don't gloat: you guys are next on my list.
Doesn't bother me, I sell cheap Chinese made products to Latin Americans who may or may not be here in the states legally. In essence I'm working the system.

Now THAT's entrepreneurial.

You sir, need not only a raise, but also a tax cut.
 

MovingTarget

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2003
9,002
115
106
Originally posted by: Atreus21
"If I don't have a job, and my co-workers don't have a job, we're not going to be spending anything," said Pitcher, the electrician.

How about that. Funny how other people do things called....Oh I don't know....finding a new job? Is that just not an option? God forbid you be forced to compete with other laborers.

That works really well when you are in an area where the job market is flooded in addition to structural changes slowly eating away at your field. In the situation this town is in, unemployment is already so high that no other jobs are available.

Not everyone can pick up and move on a whim or go out and get retrained for another field when they know their pink slip is looming. When you speak of labor, you are speaking of people and their families, which are no where near as portable as other market goods.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
Originally posted by: MovingTarget
Originally posted by: Atreus21
"If I don't have a job, and my co-workers don't have a job, we're not going to be spending anything," said Pitcher, the electrician.

How about that. Funny how other people do things called....Oh I don't know....finding a new job? Is that just not an option? God forbid you be forced to compete with other laborers.

That works really well when you are in an area where the job market is flooded in addition to structural changes slowly eating away at your field. In the situation this town is in, unemployment is already so high that no other jobs are available.

Not everyone can pick up and move on a whim or go out and get retrained for another field when they know their pink slip is looming. When you speak of labor, you are speaking of people and their families, which are no where near as portable as other market goods.

Cross training to high demand fields and move the family.

It may not be fun, but others can do it. Sitting around on the dole will not accomplish anything.

 

TheoPetro

Banned
Nov 30, 2004
3,499
1
0
Originally posted by: MovingTarget
Originally posted by: Atreus21
"If I don't have a job, and my co-workers don't have a job, we're not going to be spending anything," said Pitcher, the electrician.

How about that. Funny how other people do things called....Oh I don't know....finding a new job? Is that just not an option? God forbid you be forced to compete with other laborers.

That works really well when you are in an area where the job market is flooded in addition to structural changes slowly eating away at your field. In the situation this town is in, unemployment is already so high that no other jobs are available.

Not everyone can pick up and move on a whim or go out and get retrained for another field when they know their pink slip is looming. When you speak of labor, you are speaking of people and their families, which are no where near as portable as other market goods.

Maybe they should have seen that coming and, oh I dont know, maybe saved some of that 60k/yr so they could move if something like this happened. I have zero sympathy for people who their whole family works at the same company in the same division and its the only company in the town. I dont care if the company is one as solid as IBM thats a recipe for disaster.
 

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
12
81
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Or get a job in IT for $50K a year and spend most of their time at work here bitching about Union Workers.

I dunnon Red, on one hand you have ppl with guaranteed work, pretty high wages for what they do, and pension plans...

Compare that to those who are mainly contractors, face fears of outsourcing or downsizing at any given time, work in an up and down market, and typically deal with pretty pissed off ppl on a daily basis...

Sorry but the Union guys have pretty cushy jobs compared to anyone I know in IT on stress alone, only now do they face potential hardship with their companies collapsing.

Then again these union guys can just get govt jobs.
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
0
They've been going down for years, the only difference is that now is time to face the music.

 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
0
Originally posted by: MovingTarget
Blaming unions here is pretty short-sighted. The unions have made concessions far more than management and the stock/bondholders. Chrysler (and the other domestics) have much bigger problems than union pay/benefits. Even if we suddenly outlawed unions and immedeately reset pay/benefits to the non-union standards, we'd still be in the same position, just without the scapegoat.

It is sad to hear about that town though. The loss of a manufacturing plant will hit any community pretty hard, so to hear that one will not recover in the event of a possible shutdown isn't surprising. Hell, look at a lot of smaller towns that are nearly deserted when all the textile mills left for Mexico and South America. There really isn't any difference, imho.

That right the is the reason why unions are pulling down US industry - for whatever reason they consider themselves capital owners/partners w/o putting any money at risk. That is if the company doesn't do as well, they will still want the same wage, yet if the company does better they want part of the profit.

 

MovingTarget

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2003
9,002
115
106
Originally posted by: halik
Originally posted by: MovingTarget
Blaming unions here is pretty short-sighted. The unions have made concessions far more than management and the stock/bondholders. Chrysler (and the other domestics) have much bigger problems than union pay/benefits. Even if we suddenly outlawed unions and immedeately reset pay/benefits to the non-union standards, we'd still be in the same position, just without the scapegoat.

It is sad to hear about that town though. The loss of a manufacturing plant will hit any community pretty hard, so to hear that one will not recover in the event of a possible shutdown isn't surprising. Hell, look at a lot of smaller towns that are nearly deserted when all the textile mills left for Mexico and South America. There really isn't any difference, imho.

That right the is the reason why unions are pulling down US industry - for whatever reason they consider themselves capital owners/partners w/o putting any money at risk. That is if the company doesn't do as well, they will still want the same wage, yet if the company does better they want part of the profit.

I disagree. Labor is a definite partner in the operation of any industry, but usually it isn't under formal organization (unions). Just because they don't have millions/billions in direct capital on the line doesn't mean that they don't assume risk. They put their futures on the line, whether it be well-being in retirement (pensions/etc), in the near future (healthcare), or right then (the almighty paycheck). Unions have a definite stake in the well being and profitability of a company, as those benefits/jobs evaporate without it.

Can you say the same about overpaid, cushy management/executive/board jobs? What about those at the top who can afford to take risks and have severence packages that amount to more than any union worker makes in a year? It sure seems that the risk-takers at the top engage in the same behavior, as you put it, 'doing better if the company does better, but expecting the same wage/benefits when the company doesn't do as well.'
 

ericlp

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
6,137
225
106
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Originally posted by: lupi
60k a year, that's it?

Lazy bastards should work for $15K a year and be grateful.

Why? Chinese workers can do it for 5K a year! :)


Oh well...

Look on the bight side! CHEAP houses for EVERYONE! Yes, you too can afford a home in kokomo, only problem is you'll have no job! But hey! At least you'll be a home owner!

 

Riceninja

Golden Member
May 21, 2008
1,841
3
81
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Cross training to high demand fields and move the family.
this.

Life's a bitch.

not everyone is created equal, brah. someone has to flip the burgers.

they shouldnt be getting paid top dollar to do so though.