Automation is stealing jobs.

[tec699]

Link

Technology's effect on job loss is "very significant," says Sandra Polaski, an economist and senior associate at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace in Washington. "It's not just the same old thing that's been going on forever? [It's] a very big pulse of new energy, of new ways of doing things."

But the human cost has been immense. Automation has eliminated some 10 million jobs, mostly in manufacturing, over the same time period. And the traditional advice to workers ? join the computer-based "knowledge economy," or move to the service sector ? looks suspect.

"One could argue that 300,000 to 400,000 jobs, some of the best the country has ever created, have disappeared from the telecommunications sector," Cohen says. "And the benefit we got was lower phone bills."

High-value jobs are also being cut. For example, in recent years, mergers and acquisitions, as well as the increasing reliability of computer systems, have led corporations to consolidate their computer systems. In the process, they've winnowed out some highly paid positions, says Andrew Efstathiou, business and IT services program manager at the Yankee Group, a research firm in Boston. "Three or four years ago, those people were extremely well paid. [Now] there are fewer jobs in that space, and they're not quite as well paid as they used to be."

Automation has cut jobs just as millions of Chinese, Indian and former Eastern bloc workers have come into more direct competition with American workers, partly because of improved telecommunications. These factors have caused an "historically unprecedented skewing" of the relationship between employer and worker, she adds.

I had a discussion with a old gentleman a couple of weeks ago. He told me that he worked in a factory for the majority of his adult life. He made $25 a hour driving a fork lift. The plant closed just as he retired. Those type of jobs aren't around anymore and it's a shame.

We need good paying low end jobs for people that aren't college material. Hell, even college grads are losing their jobs to outsourcing and computers. How can you survive on $7.25 an hour?

 

[HombrePequeno]

So we should just stop all innovation b/c it might lose people jobs?

The people that did those jobs can be better allocated elsewhere.

 

[Stunt]

I don't know if this is such a bad thing...

more automations mean higher productivity such that companies are less likely to go overseas...100 jobs to 20 due to automation is better than zero.

also, with automation comes technology, research and development of this equipment for all the different sectors out there is a HUGE business and requires a lot of R&D by real people.

Automated stuff breaks down...much more mechanics and machinists are needed. These R&D and mechanics jobs pay way more than a manual labour job which is destined to go overseas without productivity increases to compensate.

Food for thought, automation isnt just doom and gloom. Who knows, it could stimulate the economy as everyone will outfit their mill/plant with new euipment that they normally would not buy as their business would just stay with the status quo...once automation catches on fully, newer faster systems will be wanted...this will drive industry in the first world. We need automation to keep the industrial jobs here.

 

[tec699]

Stunt..

Your right. Automation will bring in more jobs. But as I stated earlier not everyone is college material and/or we have people that aren't that bright. We need low skill and decent paying jobs for these people because the only low skill jobs that I've noticed only pay $7.00-9.00 an hr. So how do we find these people good paying jobs if there are no low skill jobs left in America?

 

[DeeKnow]

Originally posted by: tec699

I had a discussion with a old gentleman a couple of weeks ago. He told me that he worked in a factory for the majority of his adult life. He made $25 a hour driving a fork lift. The plant closed just as he retired. Those type of jobs aren't around anymore and it's a shame.

and does anyone think driving a forklift should pay 25 an hour???
sure it was good while it lasted, but there's just no economic rationale for 25 an hour for such a skill set.

the sooner ppl accept that, the better

 

[DeeKnow]

Originally posted by: tec699
Stunt..

Your right. Automation will bring in more jobs. But as I stated earlier not everyone is college material and/or we have people that aren't that bright. We need low skill and decent paying jobs for these people because the only low skill jobs that I've noticed only pay $7.00-9.00 an hr. So how do we find these people good paying jobs if there are no low skill jobs left in America?

hey all the buggy whip makers had the same situation when the automobile arrived... either they learned how to fix cars or they could no longer participate in the economy... so what's new this time around?

 

[alchemize]

I suggest everyone kick in their monitors that posts in this thread....here I go! &3u$s(?0-243u5....NO CARRIER

 

[charrison]

What is happening to manufacturing, happened to farming. It used to take a large portion of the population to feed this nation, now it only takes about 2% of the population.

 

[Infohawk]

A common response has been, "yeah so you want to live in the stone age." I can only imagine such comments are accompanied with a snort and a fart. I'll let you guess what bodily function comes out of which hole.

The original poster wants to know how we'll deal with automation.

I think at some point automation will make people economically irrelevant. We're not there yet but we're getting closer. At that point, how does society deal with these excess people?

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Well, being in the Automation field... I'm sure glad automation exists and I'm sure every one the company I work for is glad automation exists. I'm also quite sure our sister Electrical company is glad automation exists. Hey, and how about my wife and the company she works for - Electrical wholesalers who have an automation line like Rockwell/Allen-Bradley?
Boy i'm not so sure that automation is this big bad evil thing you are trying to make it. Sure, unskilled people may lose their job or aren't rehired for seasonal work after automating the job they used to do - but hey - who here wants to shuck corn all day? Can you do it as fast as a machine? How about 6 machines? Thought so.
I know an Engineer who posts here(or used to) who did a project that probably saved his plant from going to Mexico or somewhere else. Yes, a couple people lost their job due to the automation work he did but it was either a couple people or EVERYONE who would lose their job.

Oh well, I think I'll stay in my current arena, thank you very much.

CsG

 

[nageov3t]

meh. I fix the technology that steals the jobs

 

[imported_Pablo]

$25 an hour to drive a forklift is ri-effin-diculous.

Unless you're driving forklifts somewhere in Manhattan.

I could understand $25 an hour if it was to operate a machine that took skilled experience to master, but a forklift? A training class for that is like a day...

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: loki8481
meh. I fix the technology that steals the jobs

You also have a Rand sig. :roll:

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: tec699

"One could argue that 300,000 to 400,000 jobs, some of the best the country has ever created, have disappeared from the telecommunications sector," Cohen says. "And the benefit we got was lower phone bills."

What a bunch of Bullsh1t.

Who here has seen their phone bill go down, raise your hand.

:|

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: Infohawk
The original poster wants to know how we'll deal with automation.

I think at some point automation will make people economically irrelevant. We're not there yet but we're getting closer. At that point, how does society deal with these excess people?

This post gets to the core of the issue. The problem isn't automation; it's an economic and social system that would destroy most people's lives if we did manage to automate almost everything. Our economic system evolved to deal with the industrial era and isn't well-adapted to deal with the large scale automation of the future.

Most people are too narrowly focused on our modern economic system where we have jobs, trading our labor for money, to recall that our system is very new. Most people throughout history didn't have jobs; they produced their own food and clothing and didn't use money. Our current economic system is also not the final and best economic system ever. It's an adaptation to the specific conditions of the industrial era, one that will largely be obselete once we automate most of the jobs that were created by the industrial revolution.

Automation is nothing to fear. If we handle it right, we'll have the highest standards of living in human history. Of course, if we handle it wrong, the standard of living for most people will decline precipitiously.

Marshall Brain, the creator of How Things Work, has some interesting thoughts on this topic in his essay Robotic Nation.

 

[nageov3t]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: loki8481
meh. I fix the technology that steals the jobs

You also have a Rand sig. :roll:

she was a big fan of technology.

 

[Dissipate]

This is more "the sky is falling" statist propaganda. Tec699, you ought to know better than to buy into this garbage. Automation has brought everyone propserity & more leisure time, and it will continue to do so.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: DeeKnow

Originally posted by: tec699

I had a discussion with a old gentleman a couple of weeks ago. He told me that he worked in a factory for the majority of his adult life. He made $25 a hour driving a fork lift. The plant closed just as he retired. Those type of jobs aren't around anymore and it's a shame.

and does anyone think driving a forklift should pay 25 an hour???
sure it was good while it lasted, but there's just no economic rationale for 25 an hour for such a skill set.

the sooner ppl accept that, the better

I know some flight attendants that get paid $33/hr. Not exactly a tough job IMO. They are married, so thats a big income for them. Maybe everyone else should be making less and the low paying jobs should at least pay a living wage? Aounrd this area, the top of the scale for low level jobs is $9/hr but the have over $1.50/hr taken off for health insurance.

It's been this way for years here and gets worse every year. Now that it is hitting other places, maybe something will change. Due to injuries, I can't do the physical labor anymore and the best I can get is $6/hr with on benifits at all, not even paid holidays. Luckily for me, when I had a good job I invested my money in a small farm and between it and my wife's income we just slide by, although we have no health insurance and can't afford it.

Automation is great and it is the future. Too bad we can't get any companies to move here. We have the best business climate in the nation, but can't get any tech jobs. We did have a credit card company move their call center here for about 4 years, but they closed and took the jobs overseas.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Pablo
$25 an hour to drive a forklift is ri-effin-diculous.

Unless you're driving forklifts somewhere in Manhattan.

I could understand $25 an hour if it was to operate a machine that took skilled experience to master, but a forklift? A training class for that is like a day...

I was a skilled machinist for 23 years and the forklift drivers only made 10% less then I did. I wouldn't have done that job, it was hard, hard work. I felt that the difference was not enough, but the company was afraid that if they didn't pay the lower skilled workers more then they might vote a union in. Of course, I was only making $12/hr, so they were only making a little over $10/hr. That was 5 years ago and the skilled machimist there are making $15/hr now.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: charrison
What is happening to manufacturing, happened to farming. It used to take a large portion of the population to feed this nation, now it only takes about 2% of the population.

Your right about farming/manufacturing comparrison. but there is a differnce. If you do a good job farming you can make some money. The nation needs to eat and ag exports are important to this country so the goverment makes sure the farmers have just enough money to survive. I've been doing it for 5 years and it is a substinece existance unless you own a lot of land. I was going to go back to school this fall and hire my harvesting done. Unfortunatley the crop is so bad that I can't afford to have it custom combined and will have to do it myself. I guess school will have to wait one more semester.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Infohawk
A common response has been, "yeah so you want to live in the stone age." I can only imagine such comments are accompanied with a snort and a fart. I'll let you guess what bodily function comes out of which hole.

The original poster wants to know how we'll deal with automation.

I think at some point automation will make people economically irrelevant. We're not there yet but we're getting closer. At that point, how does society deal with these excess people?

We continue the shift to service jobs. There will never be 'excess people,' as people will naturally find a way to fill in the empty niches. New industries will surface and people will have jobs. That's the greatest thing about our economy - things tend to right themselves.

 

[Kibbo]

Remember that Service Jobs are not only in McDonalds or tech support.

I don't know if this is true down there, but up here in Canada, we have a serious shortage of skilled tradesmen, whether they are plumbers or tool and die makers.

There are options, though the transition can be very difficult.

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Infohawk
A common response has been, "yeah so you want to live in the stone age." I can only imagine such comments are accompanied with a snort and a fart. I'll let you guess what bodily function comes out of which hole.

The original poster wants to know how we'll deal with automation.

I think at some point automation will make people economically irrelevant. We're not there yet but we're getting closer. At that point, how does society deal with these excess people?

We continue the shift to service jobs. There will never be 'excess people,' as people will naturally find a way to fill in the empty niches. New industries will surface and people will have jobs. That's the greatest thing about our economy - things tend to right themselves.

We'll eventually automate the service jobs as well. Read Marshall Brain's essay Robotic Nation and his other thoughts on the topic for some possible futures of automation.

 

[CycloWizard]

Oh, and I also wanted to add that if your job can be done by a robot, there should be no reasonable expectation for high wages or job security.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
There will never be 'excess people,' as people will naturally find a way to fill in the empty niches. New industries will surface and people will have jobs. That's the greatest thing about our economy - things tend to right themselves.

"all is for the best in this best of all possible worlds."