AutoCAD build opinions

[Eos]

I'm going to build a dedicated ACAD system so I can work at home on my ACAD drawings for school. 2D now, then 3D and more in the fall. No plans to install any other programs on the machine.
Budget is under $3000.
Buying parts from the US.
No brand preference, but I doubt AMD can hang in this level.
All new parts, except an old Ultra Grid case.
I've read some of the ACAD threads.
No overclocking, default speeds.
No gaming. Twin 24" monitors at 1920x1080.
Purchase will be in about a month.

Intel Core i7-950 Bloomfield 3.06GHz LGA 1366 (the i7-920 is OOS)
ASUS P6X58D Premium LGA 1366 Intel X58 SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX Intel Motherboard
Kingston HyperX 12GB (3 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800)
PNY VCQ600-PB Quadro 600 1GB 128-bit DDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16
2x OCZ Vertex 2 OCZSSD2-2VTXE60G 2.5" 60GB SATA II MLC in RAID0
2x ASUS VW246H Glossy Black 24" 2ms(GTG) HDMI Widescreen LCD Monitor
Thermaltake TR2 W0070RUC 430W ATX12V V2.2 Intel Core i7 Compliant
Windows 7 Home Premium 64bit

I'm most concerned about the GPU. On first glance it seems like it would not have enough balls based on the insane prices of the other cards (ya get what ya pay fer!), but I hoping it will be enough for my needs.
SSD RAID0 is mostly an experiment. I don't think I'll notice any speed increase, but RAID0 is always something I've wanted to try for the OS. I have plenty of space on the LAN to store drawings.

The RAM and CPU are in the supported vendor list of the motherboard. I feel confident about those three items being fully compatible.

Your thoughts?

 

[Modelworks]

Autodesk has realized their users are moving away from professional cards due to the cost and while not officially supported they have been working with users to fix problems that may be caused by driver issues. In the past Autodesk would have told users to get a pro card. In fact the latest releases are having the same errors whether you use a pro or gamer version card. I would get a good Fermi based card and save the cash from buying a quadro as in this situation it isn't a concern anymore.

Depending on how much space your other apps take 60GB may not be enough drive storage. I prefer using a 1TB Raid 5 array for storage. You get redundancy, speed, and a lot of storage space.

 

[tynopik]

I can't speak to the video card, but why not Sandy Bridge?

And then you might as well get cheaper RAM too.

On your budget, don't mess with RAID, just get an Intel 120gb SSD and then a 1 TB Samsung or two for data storage. (I know you say you have plenty of network storage, but 120GB really isn't a lot and you may need more locally for some reason)

SSD RAID0 is mostly an experiment. I don't think I'll notice any speed increase, but RAID0 is always something I've wanted to try for the OS.

SSD has obsoleted RAID0 for OS drives.

 

[KGB]

Autodesk has realized their users are moving away from professional cards due to the cost and while not officially supported they have been working with users to fix problems that may be caused by driver issues. In the past Autodesk would have told users to get a pro card. In fact the latest releases are having the same errors whether you use a pro or gamer version card. I would get a good Fermi based card and save the cash from buying a quadro as in this situation it isn't a concern anymore.

Here we go again...

 

[kevinsbane]

Which AutoCAD will you be using?

 

[Gillbot]

IMHO, SSD's aren't needed for CAD and neither is the Quadro card. Spend your money on GOOD sata drives or perhaps SAS and GOBS upon GOBS of ram. In my experience with CAD stations, the biggest upgrade we ever did was load them up with ram first, I/O (hdd) second then video.

Also, instead of one large monitor, consider adjusting your budget and opting for multiple slightly less large screens with similar resolution. If you are going for a 1920x1080 24", perhaps stepping down to a pair (or three) of 1280x1024 19" screens would be better. You have slightly more screen real estate at a similar (or not much more) cost.

 

[tynopik]

IMHO, SSD's aren't needed for CAD . . . the biggest upgrade we ever did was . . . I/O (hdd) second

If I/O is important, then SSD is gold.

Also, instead of one large monitor, consider adjusting your budget and opting for multiple slightly less large screens with similar resolution. If you are going for a 1920x1080 24", perhaps stepping down to a pair (or three) of 1280x1024 19" screens would be better. You have slightly more screen real estate at a similar (or not much more) cost.

If price is a concern, go for 22" 1920x1080 instead of 24" monitors. Same resolution, just slightly more eye strain

that said:

1. 22" 1920x1080 monitors are dirt cheap, there's no value in going for a lower resolution
2. Running 3 monitors limits your video card choices

 

[imagoon]

For a student I wouldn't bother with pro cards. I personally have found that CAD eats CPU and RAM. Disk seems to be minimal. The 64bit editions perform light years beyond the 32bit versions but it really depends on what you are doing. Here we have files that won't even open without 16GB of RAM for "ACAD.EXE" to consume. Toss in Navisworks and we do a decent job working the machines.

At the Enterprise level: Pro cards all the way. "The not officially supported" = not supported. They will refuse to provide support for gamer cards. The 3d acceleration modules will not work with the gamer cards either. At the Enterprise level if you can't afford a $750 card, you really should review your profit centers.

Honestly as a student if all you are doing is drawing your house or a park or something I wouldn't be that concerned with the rig. If you plan to work with cad files that have 30 xrefs, Revit elements, Navisworks, huge 3d blocks and tons of elements then you might need the horse power.

 

[kevinsbane]

The 3d acceleration modules will not work with the gamer cards either.

They work with gamer cards. I'm running AutoCAD Civil 3D 2011 with a HD 5670 (5450 previously) and I can use hardware acceleration for everything; the only thing unavailable to me is antialiasing. You may have to manually turn it on (via 3dconfig), but it works.

The only benefit right now with pro cards are tweaked drivers and software support. If it's just for school, there's little point in spending the extra money for quadros or firepros.

 

[Gillbot]

If I/O is important, then SSD is gold.



If price is a concern, go for 22" 1920x1080 instead of 24" monitors. Same resolution, just slightly more eye strain

that said:

1. 22" 1920x1080 monitors are dirt cheap, there's no value in going for a lower resolution
2. Running 3 monitors limits your video card choices

Most systems I've upgraded didn't need an I/O upgrade after they were loaded with ram. Most of the time it's swap file access that slows the system. With enough ram, this isn't an issue. The only hits to the disk are typically during load, unload and saving.

Running 3 can limit your choices, but you can get loads of 1280x1024 panels on ebay and other similar markets for MUCH MUCH less than 1920x1080 panels. The latest buzz is 1080p so everyone is ditching 1280 panels for widescreen. You can grab 2 decent gaming cards for next to nothing and that will easily power 2-4 screens with more than enough power to spare.

 

[imagoon]

They work with gamer cards. I'm running AutoCAD Civil 3D 2011 with a HD 5670 (5450 previously) and I can use hardware acceleration for everything; the only thing unavailable to me is antialiasing. You may have to manually turn it on (via 3dconfig), but it works.

The only benefit right now with pro cards are tweaked drivers and software support. If it's just for school, there's little point in spending the extra money for quadros or firepros.

I assume you are not using the Quadro / XFire Autocad modules. The OpenGL portion will work but not the autocad specific hardware accelerators.

 

[Eos]

Thanks for the input thus far.

I'm using AutoCAD 2011.
The display will be TWO 24" screens at 1920x1080.
I'll look at SB this weekend and compare the two. I don't need cutting edge, just horsepower.

I see the value is saving about $80 bucks on the GPU, but it's only $80! I'd hate to get into something down the road that a gaming card would choke on. The Quadro 600 is $160, so it seems like a bargain to me for peace of mind.

I'll keep considering the SSD vs. platter disk for now. The price is similar; 2 SSD vs a single platter disk. The 600GB VelociRaptor 6GB/s model at $250 looks nice and is a couple bucks less than two SSD models. I really don't need local storage space. ACAD is the only program that machine will be running. Seriously. I have an unRAID server on the LAN, plus three other non-protected machines that have empty space.

Thanks again.

 

[tynopik]

I'll look at SB this weekend and compare the two. I don't need cutting edge, just horsepower.

$270 ASUS P6X58D Premium
$270 i7-950
$540 total

vs

$180 MSI P67A-GD65
$300 i7-2600
$480 total

Not only cheaper, it's also faster

The 600GB VelociRaptor 6GB/s model at $250 looks nice and is a couple bucks less than two SSD models.

If storage space isn't an issue, just get the 120GB Intel SSD for $210

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820167050

 

[mfenn]

Pretty much any decent rig will do 2D and light 3D AutoCAD just fine. I agree with the recommendation to go Sandy Bridge because there's no sense in paying more money for less performance with a Nehalem.

Here's what I would do:
i5 2500K $225
GA-P67A-UD3 $130
2x4GB DDR3 1333 $80 (can easily go to 16GB if need be)
Quadro 600 $170 (might as well)
Intel 320 120GB $210
Samsung F3 1TB $65
Earthwatts 380W $40
Reuse existing case
Total: $920 and that's without hunting for combo deals

 

[wwswimming]

At the Enterprise level: Pro cards all the way. "The not officially supported" = not supported. They will refuse to provide support for gamer cards. The 3d acceleration modules will not work with the gamer cards either. At the Enterprise level if you can't afford a $750 card, you really should review your profit centers.

but if you have true profit-SHARING, swapping in a $120 video card for a $750 or $2000 card definitely benefits the employees.

however - my experience with engineering managers that implement Quadro based systems for 3D work is -
* there was a corporate edict to buy from Dell.
* the company is big enough that if the manager tries to save money by using a stable video card (e.g. 8800GT 3 years ago, not any old video card), that manager never sees the savings in their bonus.
* the "nobody ever got fired buying IBM" saying becomes "nobody ever got fired buying Dell workstations with Quadro video cards".

but that's at the corporate level.

at the personal level, where presumably $ matter, a $1000 system is good enough for AutoCAD - unless you are using Autocad Solid Modelling ... whatever it's called these days ... in which case more RAM might be useful.

 

[kevinsbane]

I assume you are not using the Quadro / XFire Autocad modules. The OpenGL portion will work but not the autocad specific hardware accelerators.

Which are the Quadro/Firepro AutoCAD modules?

 

[imagoon]

Which are the Quadro/Firepro AutoCAD modules?

http://www.nvidia.com/object/AutoCAD_PD_workstation.html

http://www.nvidia.com/object/maxtreme_workstation.html

ATI has the same thing buried on their website some place. We don't use ATI at the moment so I haven't stayed current with them.

 

[kevinsbane]

http://www.nvidia.com/object/AutoCAD_PD_workstation.html

http://www.nvidia.com/object/maxtreme_workstation.html

ATI has the same thing buried on their website some place. We don't use ATI at the moment so I haven't stayed current with them.

Ah, that's what you were referring to. As far as I know, the Quadro doesn't enable a specific module in AutoCAD that the GTX can't. Quadros just have access to software (driver) optimizations that improve performance overall. Granted, it's a pretty big performance advantage in some cases.

 

[imagoon]

but if you have true profit-SHARING, swapping in a $120 video card for a $750 or $2000 card definitely benefits the employees.

however - my experience with engineering managers that implement Quadro based systems for 3D work is -
* there was a corporate edict to buy from Dell.
* the company is big enough that if the manager tries to save money by using a stable video card (e.g. 8800GT 3 years ago, not any old video card), that manager never sees the savings in their bonus.
* the "nobody ever got fired buying IBM" saying becomes "nobody ever got fired buying Dell workstations with Quadro video cards".

but that's at the corporate level.

at the personal level, where presumably $ matter, a $1000 system is good enough for AutoCAD - unless you are using Autocad Solid Modelling ... whatever it's called these days ... in which case more RAM might be useful.

Not when you're wasting labor while they wait for the machine.

Here is something that most people here really do miss. I am not enlightened or anything but most managers miss it also. "Saving" $600 on a video card is not always a true savings. That $600 goes in to an asset cost center. Typically depreciated over 3 years. So your $600 is now $200 a year for 3 years.

Humans are also "assets" but in the sense that they do work for you. Typical CAD engineer here makes $85k to start (salary). The company often 'pays' 1.75x to 2x that salary to have the employee. So you now have a 149k employee.

Say the "expensive" card improves the workers efficiency by 1%, You now start looking at about 1.4k a year in improved revenue.

This all varies extensively. However there is a lot of "truth" buried in the "Won't ever be fired for buying Dell and a Quadro." This is a lot of support for it. It is similar to the argument about why a Corporation should buy Dell (or HP, Lenovo, whatever) vs having their IT guy white box it all. Basically, there is no savings. The savings is a fabrication of the IT and management's mind that doesn't hold true when you dig in to it.

 

[Eos]

It seems there was some issues with a certain chipset at release that caused some recalls. I don't really have anything to worry about there, do I?

 

[imagoon]

It seems there was some issues with a certain chipset at release that caused some recalls. I don't really have anything to worry about there, do I?

If you use the main stream channels the Sandy bridge recall shouldn't affect you as the recalled gear should have been pulled from the channel. However, that doesn't mean you can't end up with it. Intel released a new Chip Rev (I would need to check personally) so make sure it is that rev or higher. Or just don't use the sata2 ports.

 

[yh125d]

From someone who does medium-weight professional 3D work (cadworx) with an old 2.3gHz dual core Athlon and 3gb ram, that's way, way, way overkill for a student doing 2d and some 3d later

 

[Eos]

From someone who does medium-weight professional 3D work (cadworx) with an old 2.3gHz dual core Athlon and 3gb ram, that's way, way, way overkill for a student doing 2d and some 3d later

Thanks for posting!

 

[Modelworks]

I think there is some confusion in terms regarding video card hardware.

There is Recommended and there is Certified and then there is tested.

“Recommended” graphics hardware meets Autodesk’s recommended system requirements for the applicable Autodesk software product and has at least one configuration (combination of card plus driver) that has passed Autodesk tests designed to verify that the hardware supports advanced graphics display features.

“Certified” graphics hardware meets Autodesk’s minimum system requirements for the applicable Autodesk software product and has at least one configuration (combination of card plus driver) that has passed Autodesk tests designed to verify that the hardware supports advanced graphics display features.

If you go here you can look at all cards that they have tested.
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/cert?siteID=123112&id=16391880

Select AutoCAD 2011 and Design Suite, Premium, and Nvidia, and show all . Notice the workstation cards show certified and recommended, but also notice the list of consumer cards that have also been tested. Autodesk wouldn't bother testing the cards if they were not offering support for them , they would just tell people to buy another card.

If you have the cash buy the pro stuff, but if you don't you can get just as good performance from the lower cost market.

 

[imagoon]

I think there is some confusion in terms regarding video card hardware.

There is Recommended and there is Certified and then there is tested.

If you go here you can look at all cards that they have tested.
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/cert?siteID=123112&id=16391880

Select AutoCAD 2011 and Design Suite, Premium, and Nvidia, and show all . Notice the workstation cards show certified and recommended, but also notice the list of consumer cards that have also been tested. Autodesk wouldn't bother testing the cards if they were not offering support for them , they would just tell people to buy another card.

If you have the cash buy the pro stuff, but if you don't you can get just as good performance from the lower cost market.

You're making an assumption there.

From the FAQ:

9. Why is graphics hardware designed for desktop or gaming applications not Certified or Recommended?

While some desktop or gaming level graphics hardware may work with the 3D display features in certain Autodesk products, desktop and gaming level products are not supported by Autodesk or the hardware vendor for use with 3D applications.

Please note: I have support contracts with Autodesk. One of the first questions they ask me is: Which Certified graphics card are you using and which certified driver version?