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Australia stimulus: Wildly successful. Yet another victory for Keynesian economists

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ProfJohn said:
How many members of the GOP voted for the Stimulus??

None in the house and three in the Senate, one of whom switched parties.


So just how much of the stimulus was crap given to these three Republicans?
Click to expand...

It doesn't change the fact that Obama naively was ATTEMPTING to reach across the aisle to the GOP, just like he did with the Healthcare bill. That was one of his biggest campaign themes and one of his biggest agendas coming into office

If Obama only knew beforehand that the GOP would be absolute shit, we might have a public option right now.
 
Narmer said:
It wasn't debunked. That was just someone's opinion. It would've been debunked if they did the math and, instead of looking at the pluses, they looked at "what-ifs" scenerios. One example would be what would happen to house prices if metal prices had plummeted. From what I can tell, all the stimulus did was encourage people to spend extra money they did not need because Australia's economy was not threatened at all by the global slump. Hence, the extra money went to industries higher up the food chain.
Click to expand...

Are you shitting me?

1.3% (2009 est.)
2.3% (2008 est.)
4.8% (2007 est.)

They were dangerously close to flat/negative growth in 2009, it's a good thing they pushed the stimulus through, otherwise 2010 might have been very bad for them.
 
Sorry but Australia's economy has been doing relatively well the entire time. This thread is based on the premise that Australia was in a similar situation to that of the US.

Furthermore, economists jobs are tough because there are so many variables to consider. They can't truly test their macroeconomic ideas. Pointing at any stimulus and saying, "look it worked" or "it didn't" is silly.
 
Phokus said:
What the hell are you babbling about you crazy bastard, it was spending increases and one off credits to the poor/middle class, not tax rate decreases, and their infrastructure spending increases were the most successful part of the stimulus package. Are you talking about Australia or the US? The US stimulus was only mildly successful at best because too much GOP bullshit was put in as a compromise.
Click to expand...
He's addicted to Faux Noise, he can't seem to help himself.
 
Infohawk said:
Sorry but Australia's economy has been doing relatively well the entire time. This thread is based on the premise that Australia was in a similar situation to that of the US.

Furthermore, economists jobs are tough because there are so many variables to consider. They can't truly test their macroeconomic ideas. Pointing at any stimulus and saying, "look it worked" or "it didn't" is silly.
Click to expand...

1.3% growth is not good. And without the 2 stimulus bills would have been even lower in 2009.
 
Phokus said:
1.3% growth is not good. And without the 2 stimulus bills would have been even lower in 2009.
Click to expand...

How would you know what would have happened if there were no stimulus bills? By comparing to America, which was in a different position to start with?

1.3% growth doesn't even qualify as a recession. But go ahead and keep finding crap on blogs to reinforce what you're going to believe anyway.
 
Infohawk said:
How would you know what would have happened if there were no stimulus bills? By comparing to America, which was in a different position to start with?

1.3% growth doesn't even qualify as a recession. But go ahead and keep finding crap on blogs to reinforce what you're going to believe anyway.
Click to expand...

They had 2 stimulus bills, one in 2008 and one in 2009. The GDP would have been lower without the stimulus bills. 1.3 is *BAD*. Sorry you don't seem to understand this.
 
Phokus said:
Are you shitting me?

1.3% (2009 est.)
2.3% (2008 est.)
4.8% (2007 est.)

They were dangerously close to flat/negative growth in 2009, it's a good thing they pushed the stimulus through, otherwise 2010 might have been very bad for them.
Click to expand...
Did you even bother to look at the prices of metals during that time? Also, how are they doing now wrt metals?
 
Phokus said:
Some EU countries are implementing an Austerity program.

In the US, i already addressed this, Obama's stimulus package was way too weak because

1) the size of the stimulus was too small and was nowhere near enough to cover the economic shortfall (as Krugman presciently predicted)

2) The makeup of the stimulus was pure crap, Obama gave into the GOP and included tax breaks in the place of more beneficial spending programs (see the chart i posted above).
Click to expand...

1.) I beg your pardon? Compared to what?
http://financialedge.investopedia.com/financial-edge/1209/Global-Bailout-Did-The-U.K.-Do-Enough.aspx
http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/Files/rc/articles/2009/03_g20_stimulus_prasad/03_g20_stimulus_prasad_table.pdf
03_g20_stimulus_prasad_small.gif

Two different sources showing US spent at least more than double(if not triple) on a % per GDP basis than Australia and many industrialized countries. Maybe if Obama had put the liberal Dems on a leash and passed a payroll tax cut for both businesses and employees instead, the stimulus would have been more successful. That would have also exposed Republicans on their hypocrisy(I'd like to see the GOP try to filibuster a stimulus bill that's 100% payroll tax cuts). That's certainly more effective than spending money on pork barrel projects, "green" jobs, building dog parks, and cash for clunkers.

2.) Look at the chart...Besides France and Japan, almost ALL industrialized nations stimulus composed of mainly tax cuts. Hell, Australia's stimulus had more tax breaks on a percentage share basis than the American stimulus counterpart.
 
lothar said:
1.) I beg your pardon? Compared to what?
http://financialedge.investopedia.com/financial-edge/1209/Global-Bailout-Did-The-U.K.-Do-Enough.aspx
http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/Files/rc/articles/2009/03_g20_stimulus_prasad/03_g20_stimulus_prasad_table.pdf
03_g20_stimulus_prasad_small.gif

Two different sources showing US spent at least more than double(if not triple) on a % per GDP basis than Australia and many industrialized countries. Maybe if Obama had put the liberal Dems on a leash and passed a payroll tax cut for both businesses and employees instead, the stimulus would have been more successful. That would have also exposed Republicans on their hypocrisy(I'd like to see the GOP try to filibuster a stimulus bill that's 100% payroll tax cuts). That's certainly more effective than spending money on pork barrel projects, "green" jobs, building dog parks, and cash for clunkers.

2.) Look at the chart...Besides France and Japan, almost ALL industrialized nations stimulus composed of mainly tax cuts. Hell, Australia's stimulus had more tax breaks on a percentage share basis than the American stimulus counterpart.
Click to expand...

I tried to tell him, but he decided to be insulting.

Now he's getting owned in all his threads. Kinda funny, actually.
 
ElFenix said:
what was australia's fiscal picture prior to said stimulus?
Click to expand...

Fucking excellent. 3.9% unemployment.

That's the real reason we survived the downturn.

And our housing bubble hasn't burst yet.

The stimulus helped because it gave people 21k to build a house or 14k to buy an existing one. Kept the bubble afloat.

China helped too.

But we're still a service economy. 70% GDP is from service. Exports alone cant save a service economy. The $1000 handout probably helped on that front.

But the tax breaks for business did fuck all.
 
lothar said:
1.) I beg your pardon? Compared to what?
http://financialedge.investopedia.com/financial-edge/1209/Global-Bailout-Did-The-U.K.-Do-Enough.aspx
http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/Files/rc/articles/2009/03_g20_stimulus_prasad/03_g20_stimulus_prasad_table.pdf
03_g20_stimulus_prasad_small.gif

Two different sources showing US spent at least more than double(if not triple) on a % per GDP basis than Australia and many industrialized countries. Maybe if Obama had put the liberal Dems on a leash and passed a payroll tax cut for both businesses and employees instead, the stimulus would have been more successful. That would have also exposed Republicans on their hypocrisy(I'd like to see the GOP try to filibuster a stimulus bill that's 100% payroll tax cuts). That's certainly more effective than spending money on pork barrel projects, "green" jobs, building dog parks, and cash for clunkers.

2.) Look at the chart...Besides France and Japan, almost ALL industrialized nations stimulus composed of mainly tax cuts. Hell, Australia's stimulus had more tax breaks on a percentage share basis than the American stimulus counterpart.
Click to expand...

Gee, i wonder why the US need a *MUCH* bigger stimulus per GDP than what Australia offered:


-2.6% (2009 est.)
0% (2008 est.)
1.9% (2007 est.)


vs.


1.3% (2009 est.)
2.3% (2008 est.)
4.8% (2007 est.)


While Australia was hurting, the US was in a MUCH deeper hole.

Also, your chart is for the 2008 stimulus. Australia had a bigger stimulus in 2010. Note: Australia's was mostly spending and they didn't really have 'tax cuts', they had one off rebates, even to those who weren't working.

GOP style tax cuts don't do shit for stimulating an economy:

zandi.gif
 
Phokus said:
Gee, i wonder why the US need a *MUCH* bigger stimulus per GDP than what Australia offered:


-2.6% (2009 est.)
0% (2008 est.)
1.9% (2007 est.)


vs.


1.3% (2009 est.)
2.3% (2008 est.)
4.8% (2007 est.)


While Australia was hurting, the US was in a MUCH deeper hole.

Also, your chart is for the 2008 stimulus. Australia had a bigger stimulus in 2010. Note: Australia's was mostly spending and they didn't really have 'tax cuts', they had one off rebates, even to those who weren't working.

GOP style tax cuts don't do shit for stimulating an economy:

zandi.gif
Click to expand...
He just proved you wrong. Now you're diverting?
 
RocksteadyDotNet said:
Fucking excellent. 3.9% unemployment.

That's the real reason we survived the downturn.

And our housing bubble hasn't burst yet.

The stimulus helped because it gave people 21k to build a house or 14k to buy an existing one. Kept the bubble afloat.

China helped too.

But we're still a service economy. 70% GDP is from service. Exports alone cant save a service economy. The $1000 handout probably helped on that front.

But the tax breaks for business did fuck all.
Click to expand...

Holy crap, Phokus. Even an Aussie has come in to shoot you down for the most part.
 
Narmer said:
He just proved you wrong. Now you're diverting?
Click to expand...

No, that's not 'proving me wrong'

America's GDP growth

-2.6% (2009 est.)
0% (2008 est.)
1.9% (2007 est.)


vs.

Australian GDP growth

1.3% (2009 est.)
2.3% (2008 est.)
4.8% (2007 est.)
 
lol Australia, one of the biggest bubbles of them all. But at least they are taking advantage of the commodity boom to perpetuate the bubble and fund their socialism.
 
Phokus said:
No, that's not 'proving me wrong'

America's GDP growth

-2.6% (2009 est.)
0% (2008 est.)
1.9% (2007 est.)


vs.

Australian GDP growth

1.3% (2009 est.)
2.3% (2008 est.)
4.8% (2007 est.)
Click to expand...
He proved you wrong wrt you saying the stimulus was "too small". Not sure why you keep harping about GDP growth.
 
Narmer said:
He proved you wrong wrt you saying the stimulus was "too small". Not sure why you keep harping about GDP growth.
Click to expand...

Because he said: 'Two different sources showing US spent at least more than double(if not triple) on a % per GDP basis than Australia and many industrialized countries.'

When that's comparing apples to oranges, the USA was WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY worse off.
 
Phokus said:
Considering he got his unemployment rate percentage wrong

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/Economics/Unemployment-Rate.aspx?Symbol=AUD

And

"But the tax breaks for business did fuck all."

He shot me down?

LMAO, you're retarded, oh wait, i'm replying to amused, of course.
Click to expand...

Notice I said "for the most part?" At any rate, returning the taxes to the tax payers seemed to do the most good. AND, the country wasn't even in a recession to begin with nor has it's real estate bubble burst.

Cry more, bitch.

Hint: Instead of looking at and posting only opinion pieces that support your ideology, read the rebuttals first to see if they're factually or conceptually wrong.

Now, I know your response to me will be filled with insults, but that's okay. It seems like your entire ego is dependent on winning whatever it seems you think you win here.

So you save face, why not keep telling the Aussie he knows fuck-all about his country and economy and you know so much more because your partisan opinion piece told you so.
 
JS80 said:
lol Australia, one of the biggest bubbles of them all. But at least they are taking advantage of the commodity boom to perpetuate the bubble and fund their socialism.
Click to expand...

LOL Wat.

What socialism?

You mean low government spending and taxes? We had $0 gov debt before the downturn. ATM its only about 40 billion and will be paid off in 5 years.

Or you mean UHC? Oh noes! Evil UHC!

We cover more people and spend less per capita than the US. What a massive failure our UHC is!
 
RocksteadyDotNet said:
LOL Wat.

What socialism?

You mean low government spending and taxes? We had $0 gov debt before the downturn. ATM its only about 40 billion and will be paid off in 5 years.

Or you mean UHC? Oh noes! Evil UHC!

We cover more people and spend less per capita than the US. What a massive failure our UHC is!
Click to expand...

Let us ship over our Mexicans and urban population to your country and see how your utopia works out.
 
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