Audio of the explosives which brought down WTC 7

[alkemyst]

Sure, except no evidence pointing to actual explosives = no conspiracy theory.

Not really...you can still have one without any explosives.

 

[LunarRay]

And there you have it, absolute proof that the government rigged up nano-thermite explosives to get oil from the terrorists.

Hehehehehehehe, but since someone flew the planes... [I don't accept the remote controlled aspect] and people continue to be missing who were once on the planes, ergo, terrorists flew the planes and the passengers and crew died in the crashes... and if that is true you must eliminate a broader conspiracy involving the terrorists and government folks. That simply makes no sense whatsoever... to me. It would require us to be in league with Osama or who ever was in charge of the 9/11 events and that prospect seems incomprehensible and galactically stupid.
We already had the premise to invade Iraq and Saddam helped us to a great extent by being an idiot... he could have been our best buddy and sold us oil cheaper than what it cost eventually. It did take 18 months to decide, though. Not sure which idiot decided that Afghanistan was easy pickings but that place could self destruct or what ever as far as I'm concerned.

 

[LunarRay]

A trial assumes "innocent until proven guilty." One side automatically assumes guilt in this case and then throws anything, no matter how insane, against the wall that they believe will stick to prove that guilt. That's not any reasonable attempt at a trial, it's a Kangaroo court.

I think carrying the dialog a bit further, 'Beyond a reasonable doubt' is the threshold to apply.
Discovery is an important procedure in a trial. Also is dealing with all the evidence that the other side might use to create doubt. In this case who is the prosecution and who is the defense? I suspect the Truther Movement seeks to indict the government with bits and pieces of what could be evidence of something but even if it is something interesting is it sufficient to eliminate the preponderance of evidence pointing to terrorist only activity... Not at this point, imo.

 

[xj0hnx]

Another thing is the kind of ordinance used in something like this may have nothing to do with what is used conventionally even in military. Think standard fixtures vs gold in high end homes. Basic grunts probably have no knowledge and those that do can't talk about it.

"May have", "probably". The ones that "can't talk about it" use the same stuff we did, what they can't talk about isn't the explosives, it's what they do with the explosives. This is of course in line with Truthers theories, there's no evidence so it must be some cloak and dagger, if I told you I'd have to kill you BS.

EDIT: My grandson just said that if he wanted to try and topple the towers with aircraft he'd try to weaken the foundation first...

Except "they" could achieve the same effect without the convoluted story by just using vans full of demo. Hell they could have insured that the buildings came down and caused even MORE damage. And there's always the fact that the buildings didn't fall from the foundations, they fell from where they got hit by the planes.

 

[LunarRay]

Not really...you can still have one without any explosives.

I wish folks would accept that it is a conspiracy regardless. IF more than one person is involved it is a Conspiracy!... There is the Offical Conspiracy Theory and the Alternative Conspiracy Theories...
I guess I'm being picky here but, I've seen folks accuse me of supporting the 'Conspiracy Theory' as if that means the government and terrorists did it or the government alone... when it means the Official one... By definition, the Alternative Theory is the alternative to the Official one.
OCT versus ACT.... hehehehehehehheeh See... now we can all be on the same page...
()🙂

 

[alkemyst]

"May have", "probably". The ones that "can't talk about it" use the same stuff we did, what they can't talk about isn't the explosives, it's what they do with the explosives. This is of course in line with Truthers theories, there's no evidence so it must be some cloak and dagger, if I told you I'd have to kill you BS.



Except "they" could achieve the same effect without the convoluted story by just using vans full of demo. Hell they could have insured that the buildings came down and caused even MORE damage. And there's always the fact that the buildings didn't fall from the foundations, they fell from where they got hit by the planes.

so you are saying you had access to all ordinance in all branches of the military and nothing was beyond your scope...

that's pretty interesting.

There is definitely 'need to know'/top secret things out there. This is one of the things that people think doesn't happen as "someone would talk about it".

Getting vans into the base of these buildings would be a bit tough in reality though and attacking the base would definitely not have created a controlled demolition.

Not saying this was a controlled demolition except in the way the buildings fell.

 

[alkemyst]

if that is true you must eliminate a broader conspiracy involving the terrorists and government folks. That simply makes no sense whatsoever... to me. It would require us to be in league with Osama or who ever was in charge of the 9/11 events and that prospect seems incomprehensible and galactically stupid.

Well that's a key thing...it doesn't have to be the entire government. One of our government officials was just nailed for conspiracy last night. He is the fourth or fifth out of our current lineup this year. Doesn't mean all government officials do the same thing nor exclude them.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Another thing is the kind of ordinance used in something like this may have nothing to do with what is used conventionally even in military. Think standard fixtures vs gold in high end homes. Basic grunts probably have no knowledge and those that do can't talk about it.

Look at something simple has HGH in athletics. You can test for steroids but HGH is sort of impossible to. The results though are very evident. Fact is there isn't a test for everything that happens.

TastesLikeChicken's response is the proper method, however; something like this in general then causes another to totally discredit the person making a 'pedantic' error.

If explosive ordinance was actually used there would have been absolute proof of it in the plethora of audio available from 9/11. I witnessed a building demolition here in Orlando some years back (Some scenes from that demolition were actually used, iirc, in Lethal Weapon 3). It doesn't make a few pops that are hard to hear and require enhancement of audio. It goes bang, bang, bang, bang, bang...so loud it hurts your ears (and I wasn't even that close), and there's no mistaking what it is. Yet there was nothing resembling that on any of the 9/11 audio. The few loud noises that were recorded weren't nearly loud enough to be demolitions, and when massive buildings like those of the WTC are beginning to collapse loud noises can be expected because buildings don't collapse in silence.

I also don't like the constant switching of theories by the truthers. They make a wild claim and once it's shown to be bogus they drop it and pretend it never happened. It's shooting in the dark. "Professor" Jones originally claimed it was thermite. When it was explained why thermite couldn't have been used he switched his claim to super thermite. When that was ruled out he jumped to nano-thermite, a theoretical compound that nobody can show is actually produced even today, let alone in 2001.

Then there's the logistics of actually planting the demolitions. Somehow massive amounts of demolitions were ninja'd into the towers, drywall was torn down to expose beams, the demolitions were planted, the drywall was completely repaired and repainted, and the torn up drywall/scrap was then steathily smuggled back out of the towers and disposed of without a single worker, janitor, or maintenance staff member ever noticing something fishy was going on? And once the towers collapsed there's no remnants of those demolitions other than tiny chips that have to be viewed under a microscope to be seen? No remnants of blasting caps, detonators, or leftover chunks of the demolition substance itself? Can you not recognize how absolutely silly that sounds?

Before truthers begin questioning the "official" theory they should scrutinize their own because it has enough holes in it to make a hunk of swiss cheese blush.

 

[Ns1]

Not really...you can still have one without any explosives.

the conspiracy theory where aliens planted explosives into the WTC and performed a mass MIB-style memory relapse on all involved parties?

 

[Ns1]

wall of text

why are you introducing reason into this when newton's 3rd law clearly shows explosives were used? Don't forget, the puffs of smoke are evidence.

 

[LunarRay]

Except "they" could achieve the same effect without the convoluted story by just using vans full of demo. Hell they could have insured that the buildings came down and caused even MORE damage. And there's always the fact that the buildings didn't fall from the foundations, they fell from where they got hit by the planes.

I raised my grandkids... adopted them actually (3) and sought to teach them how to think.. not what to think... In so doing, I always stressed the notion to adopt the other side of any debate first. Find every possible argument against their position and defend it.
Having them educated and all it seems I produced monsters. I never know what their agenda is... It is not comfortable to sit here and know how sharp they are and how flimsy might be my position and then see that knowing grin on their face... Got ya Grumpster!!!...

(My) Kyle's expertise is Chemistry/Biology but focused on Nano technology and Premed. He's about doing a joint MD/Ph.D adventure. He simply states that Nano-Thermite was in the infancy stages in 2001. Not nearly enough produced to blow up a can of soda let alone a building. Nor would that substance be ideal (Mackay's position) to do that job if there was quantity available... But then he said what always bugged me: Why use what can be directly linked to the Government Labs? Makes no sense!
It don't mean it ain't what it is... but, rather, it suggests something other than what the ACT proffer. [ACT=Alternative Conspiracy Theorists]

I'd like to pin that possible thermite bit down... what is it and how and why did it get there... Simple question but as yet not answered...

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

why are you introducing reason into this when newton's 3rd law clearly shows explosives were used? Don't forget, the puffs of smoke are evidence.

Of course. Like Newton said 'What blows up, must come down.' 😉

 

[xj0hnx]

so you are saying you had access to all ordinance in all branches of the military and nothing was beyond your scope...

that's pretty interesting.

It's actually not that interesting, and yes, we trained, and used ordnance not only from all branch's, but from many countries too. We supplemented EOD, as well as our own mobility/counter-mobility operations, many of which involved foreign ordnance, as well as disposal of ordnance. Our job was to be up-to-date on ordnance, if that mystifies you it's not my fault.

Getting vans into the base of these buildings would be a bit tough in reality though and attacking the base would definitely not have created a controlled demolition.

WTF are you talking about? So getting vans into the substructure, and wiring it to blow the lower levels would be more difficult than wiring a large portion of an occupied building with enough, custom made explosives using remote detonation in an unknown sequence to work in conjunction with hi-jacking airplanes and flying them into an unknown part of the building? Wow.

 

[alkemyst]

snip

There are chemicals that can burn through metal without so much a sound.

however, most don't even realize how much damage you can do with just simply household stuff so it's all science fiction to them.

 

[xj0hnx]

There are chemicals that can burn through metal without so much a sound.

however, most don't even realize how much damage you can do with just simply household stuff so it's all science fiction to them.

Thermite, been there, done that ...next.

 

[LunarRay]

Well that's a key thing...it doesn't have to be the entire government. One of our government officials was just nailed for conspiracy last night. He is the fourth or fifth out of our current lineup this year. Doesn't mean all government officials do the same thing nor exclude them.

That is one of them ACT. Folks with an Agenda in league with the terrorists. That to me is not Government... Although that scenario might contain government employees or advisers or the like. I'm the government or the creator of it and my government is not designed to terminate its citizens.
It is possible to visualize a situation where some knowledgeable folks seek to alter or speed up what they believe is the proper direction this nation should follow. They would have to be able to coordinate with the 'enemy' a plan to benefit the agenda of both. One of which is counter intuitive to the terrorists. Their demise! So... I can't imagine OBL getting in bed with US power folks to create the very means to destroy him and his army of followers. IMO, that dog don't hunt!.. I much prefer that OBL did it on his own. A sort of simply fly some planes into buildings and see what happens type thing... the doing of that in the US to the very display of our culture is quite some event to accomplish... a thing some might give up their life to do..

EDIT: I use OBL but it could be anyone bent on damaging the US and its safe haven from Terrorist reach thing.

 

[Ns1]

however, most don't even realize how much damage you can do with just simply household stuff so it's all science fiction to them.

yeah and they all leave evidence.

 

[alkemyst]

It's actually not that interesting, and yes, we trained, and used ordnance not only from all branch's, but from many countries too. We supplemented EOD, as well as our own mobility/counter-mobility operations, many of which involved foreign ordnance, as well as disposal of ordnance. Our job was to be up-to-date on ordnance, if that mystifies you it's not my fault.



WTF are you talking about? So getting vans into the substructure, and wiring it to blow the lower levels would be more difficult than wiring a large portion of an occupied building with enough, custom made explosives using remote detonation in an unknown sequence to work in conjunction with hi-jacking airplanes and flying them into an unknown part of the building? Wow.

That interesting because my brother was in a top secret level of clearance and had to install various electronics on B2's and other high profile aircraft. They wouldn't even give him a schematic of anything. It was up to him to test and fit.

So you think the average pilot is up to date on all military aircraft too? I really doubt that, but it shows you think a lot of what you know.

IRT the vans and your other point. I was just talking the vans and there would be no way that the buildings would fall like they did. Now you are bringing up a controlled demolition as well going on. In that case I don't think the public would have bought a single van or two bringing down those buildings.

Also if it was planted explosives why would it have to be an unknown order of explosion?

People walk out of medical facilities with MRI machines. Planting a small charge here and there over an indefinite period would not be hard to do.

Not saying that's what happened but definitely possible.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

There are chemicals that can burn through metal without so much a sound.

however, most don't even realize how much damage you can do with just simply household stuff so it's all science fiction to them.

Chemicals like that would leave reaction by-products, not to mention that it would have to be explained how you get a chemical to burn roughly horizontally through a 30" box column or a 15" I-beam in order to undermine its structural integrity. How are those chemicals protected from exposure to intense heat as well, which could potentially change their properties or cause them to react prematurely? How do you coordinate the release of those chemicals so the demolition just happens to coincide with the locations where the planes impacted the buildings, a location you couldn't possibly pin down until after the impacts?

Edit: That still doesn't address the installation logisitics problem either, which is a massive problem with any sort of demolitions being used.

More holes in the theory. They just keep piling up.

 

[alkemyst]

yeah and they all leave evidence.

I didn't say they used household items in 9/11, don't be a tool. I used them as an example that people don't even know WTF they have in their own cupboards.

Also evidence is only as good as someone looking for it.

Not to mention much of the WTC was not for public viewing, yet alone results of a search.

 

[Ns1]

People walk out of medical facilities with MRI machines. Planting a small charge here and there over an indefinite period would not be hard to do.

...except that's not what's required for a controlled demolition

We should just go back to the bombs in pies theory.

 

[alkemyst]

Chemicals like that would leave reaction by-products, not to mention that it would have to be explained how you get a chemical to burn roughly horizontally through a 30" box column or a 15" I-beam in order to undermine its structural integrity. How are those chemicals protected from exposure to intense heat as well, which could potentially change their properties or cause them to react prematurely? How do you coordinate the release of those chemicals so the demolition just happens to coincide with the locations where the planes impacted the buildings, a location you couldn't possibly pin down until after the impacts?

More holes in the theory. They just keep piling up.

Here's the facts, I am not a munitions expert and neither are you.

The belief in 'stealth' vehicles was all fairy tale at one time and to many a lot of simple acrobatics seems to be done with wires.

 

[xj0hnx]

That interesting because my brother was in a top secret level of clearance and had to install various electronics on B2's and other high profile aircraft. They wouldn't even give him a schematic of anything. It was up to him to test and fit.

So you think the average pilot is up to date on all military aircraft too? I really doubt that, but it shows you think a lot of what you know.

Apples are not oranges. That doesn't even make sense that your brother, with top secret clearance was installing electronics without schematics for what he was installing, as a matter of fact, that is completely contrary to how the military operates as they tend to have a manual, and SOP for EVERYTHING. Now if you are trying to say he didn't get schematics of the planes he was working on, that's no big surprise, he didn't need them.

IRT the vans and your other point. I was just talking the vans and there would be no way that the buildings would fall like they did. Now you are bringing up a controlled demolition as well going on. In that case I don't think the public would have bought a single van or two bringing down those buildings.

If they had used vans, they could have controlled how the buildings fell, and even had the required evidence of demolition with a cover story.

Also if it was planted explosives why would it have to be an unknown order of explosion?

Because they didn't know exactly where the planes were going to hit, read the thread.

People walk out of medical facilities with MRI machines. Planting a small charge here and there over an indefinite period would not be hard to do.

Not saying that's what happened but definitely possible.

You really should read the rest of thread before throwing out anymore possibilities.

And ...people have "walked" out of hospitals with these ...

Why do I doubt that?

 

[alkemyst]

Thermite, been there, done that ...next.

*sigh*

 

[LunarRay]

Thermite, been there, done that ...next.

Can you maybe provide a reason why the building had to be collapsed to accomplish the grand scheme an OBL might have desired?... Is not simply violating our air space and causing damage to the symbols of our ideals not enough? There can be no doubt that IF an OBL wanted doing major damage it seems flying into some Nuclear facility might be the better option... Target a few planes to a few of them might cause a bigger issue... if it would, I don't know.

Edit: I can also imagine flying a 757/767 into a guided missle cruiser or group of them tied up to a pier would be one simple way to kill and destroy stuff with absolute certainty... but I'm forced to remain committed to the notion that the symbolic structures did not need to be destroyed to accomplish the agenda.