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Audio of the explosives which brought down WTC 7

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It doesn't require much detail, and I explained it multiple times in this thread, most recently here:

I can demonstrate crush up and crush down happening simultaneously over and over again in accordance with Newton's third law, but you'll never once be able demonstrate the official story of crush down happening before crush up, because that story stands in flagrant violation of the laws of physics.

Anyway, John calling Bazant's diagram mine even though I just added a little text to it inspired to me to do a bit more work to it to make it mine:

questionsforbelievers.gif
 
Back in my previous but now locked thread about WTC 7's free fall, many were upset by the fact that I'd refused to claim explosives brought down WTC 7 because I lacked the evidence to do so. That has recently changed, as I've come across a recording of a sequence of explosions in the moments prior to the building coming down, albeit very faint as it was captured by an interview mic four blocks away, as can be heard here. Also, the last explosion was captured by a slightly closer camera mic, as can be heard just after the change between clips here.

Anyway, between the audio evidence, and other evidence such as the iron-rich microspheres and underacted nano-thermite found in the dust, along with the lack of any experimental confirmation to support the notion of fire-induced free fall; surely nobody has a sound argument to suggest the destruction of WTC 7 was anything but a controlled demolition?

I think I read a similar report from a US General saying it was a controlled explosion. With photo evidence even. Backed up by scientists.

The US is not new to these types of actions. They intentionally allowed US citizens on the Lusitania, even though foreign authorities pleaded the US not to allow them on the ship. It sank. They were pawns to get into WW1. There is Pearl Harbor as well.

I take official government accounts with heaping grains of salt. I don't think they have proven beyond a reasonable doubt that it was not a controlled explosion ( in addition to hijackers). It seems too much like an excuse to invade the mideast. Does not pass the smell test.
 
Mmmmm ...strawberries.

Them are nano-strawberry chips... you simply blew up the picture! 😱

So... that is how they got the thermite into the building... Disguised it all as pie... Amazing! President Bush's cousin then wheeled it up to the appropriate floors and there it is.
 
Please tell us in detail how Bazant's theory violate newtons third law.

I have a sneaky suspicion that Bazant is well aware of not only Newton's third law but the others too... and mind you, probably the various applications they might be used in.
So... given Bazant theorizes a collapse that apparently violates a few of Newton's laws we must look closer at exactly what it is that he is saying...
What I garner from his thesis is that although the floors and steel and etc get smashed according to physical requirements they do not loose their mass simply because they are now in a billion pieces... they retain that mass and provide the momentum to continue the collapse at some 60 percent of Free Fall.
My problem with our Esteemed Professor is that I see that billion bits making its way to Jersey, Brooklyn and elsewhere... that is what I see, I think!

Edit: I realize that he provides a Tamper effect but I'm not totally sure that he doesn't suggest that the tamper itself never does make full contact with the floors below after the first few floors are crushed... iow, there is enough mass from the crushed bits to obsorb the equal and opposite effect before the 'tamper' arrives... it is to do with the spacing of the billions an billions of stars.. er.. bits.. and the spacing of the floor trusses or floors in general [Their distance from floor to floor... the lower bit of building is not a boulder it has distance twixt the floors...]
 
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It doesn't require much detail, and I explained it multiple times in this thread, most recently here:
That's not an explanation. That's a stupid graphic that doesn't explain a damn thing about how Newton's 3rd law applies.

Here's a clue for you. Your error is treating the bottom 2/3rds of the towers as a monolithic object.

I hate to throw structural engineering basics at you, but try comprehending that the failure happened floor by floor (and consider the structure weakening from the impact and fires as well). Each floor was designed to accommodate a certain static load. When a dynamic load of 20+ stories falls on a single floor from 10'+ the structural devices within that individual floor will fail quickly. They have to. No structural components of single floor of a sky-scraper are ever designed to handle such a load. That failure continues to the next lower floor and the dynamic load now has even more mass that came from the previous floor. The next floor fails and the progression continues. That sort of cumulative action cannot be arrested.

That's why your attempted application of Newton's 3rd law is ridiculous on the face of it. You don't consider the structural issues (the towers were not solid objects) or why it must be considered on a floor-by-floor basis.
 
What I garner from his thesis is that although the floors and steel and etc get smashed according to physical requirements...
Please quote whatever in Bazant's paper you belive suggests that.

That's not an explanation. That's a stupid graphic...
What I quoted from myself above the graphic is the explanation.

Your error is treating the bottom 2/3rds of the towers as a monolithic object.
Rather, I'm just addressing the official story for how the towers came down which is Bazant's hypothesis, and he treats both the top and bottom sections as monolithic objects.
 
What I quoted from myself above the graphic is the explanation.
You are confused. Your quote is not an explanation, it's an exclamation. You exclaim that that collapse without explosives violates Newton's 3rd law. You never actually explain why in any sort of detail whatsoever.

Rather, I'm just addressing the official story for how the towers came down which is Bazant's hypothesis, and he treats both the top and bottom sections as monolithic objects.
Actually, Bazant does not treat them as monolithic, which is why he divides the towers into sections in his explanation. He also explains it in this paper:

http://www.civil.northwestern.edu/people/bazant/PDFs/Papers/405.pdf
 
...he divides the towers into sections in his explanation.
Right, including the bottom section which he claims crushes down before the top section crushes up, as if they were two monolithic objects which didn't apply equal and opposite force to each other when interacting, as I've explained all along.
 
Right, including the bottom section which he claims crushes down before the top section crushes up, as if they were two monolithic objects which didn't apply equal and opposite force to each other when interacting, as I've explained all along.

Can you point out that section in the paper? I've got it on my desktop I want to read this part.
 
Right, including the bottom section which he claims crushes down before the top section crushes up, as if they were two monolithic objects which didn't apply equal and opposite force to each other when interacting, as I've explained all along.
And that's where you are wrong and why it shows that you really don't comprehend what you are talking about in regard to physics and/or structural engineering. They don't apply "equal and opposite force" because the upper section is dynamic while the bottom section is static. Each floor of the bottom part of the tower would have to be able to absorb the kinetic energy of the 20+ floors above crashing down on it and, particularly for the floors that were already structurally compromised, there is no way they are going to be able to tolerate such a dynamic load. They simply were not designed to do that even when not structurally compromised.

iow, by glomming on to Newton's 3rd law you completely disregard his 2nd law. The force of gravity will cause the upper sections to accelerate because of the floors in the static portion of the structure do not have nearly enough strucural integrity to halt the motion of the mass of the upper floors, and as the upper floors crash into each lower floor the dynamic portion gains even more mass in the process.
 
Please quote whatever in Bazant's paper you belive suggests that.

In the January, 2002 edition of the Journal of Engineering Mechanics Bazant Theorizes, among other things, an estimation of the Upper Bloc mass at something like 58*10 to the sixth Kilograms and, and as I recall, 87 '...' for the other tower. I don't see him diminish that mass in any subsequent calculations, ergo, I figure he considers it included when he determines the initial and subsequent buckling. IOW, the bloc remained perhaps not as a bloc as originally configured but its mass remained constant... What is depicted in the Art Work is a bloc more or less in pristine condition moving down until it meets the more solid earth.
Since I know Bazant is not the village idiot, I figure he knows about the laws and constraints they place on this event. The upper bloc is depicted above the lower bloc initially and at the base subsequently... I figure that means the bloc's mass but not necessarily the mass contained in an intact block.
He indicates that the downward forces are applied equally and that the collapse scenario takes out a few floors at a time. And that adds mass to the equation to the extent it is not ummmm lost over the sides. The bit about 'Equally' seems to imply - as I see it - that given he says stuff got wedged among the core columns, the result of the breaking up of the upper bits and what joined the party subsequently. - Stuff had to be broken up otherwise it would have been deflected by the column structure before failure resulting in what was left of the upper bloc et. al. being free to fall over the side or simply stop which it did not do.

He figures if the bloc could start the event it could finish it while also providing for the volcanic eruption looking pulverized stuff of the lower bloc we see emitted during the collapse, IMO..

EDIT: I think I said, more or less, that I interpreted Bazant's work. I do this using what tools I possess limited as they may be. Others may infer from what is contained in that paper other understandings because they bring more saavy to the table. The Math I understand but the application of the math to the problem is another field... it seems logical to me, however.
 
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iow, by glomming on to Newton's 3rd law you completely disregard his 2nd law. The force of gravity will cause the upper sections to accelerate because of the floors in the static portion of the structure do not have nearly enough strucural integrity to halt the motion of the mass of the upper floors, and as the upper floors crash into each lower floor the dynamic portion gains even more mass in the process.

I think that just because you break up an object it don't mean it becomes irrelevant to the equation. It may endure more air friction and the resulting acceleration will be slowed but the 2nd law does occur just like Newton figured. [EDIT: Indeed the 1st law too...]
I've often tried to grasp the difference tween a pound of feathers hitting an object and a pound of cheese... absent air friction the only thing different is the area of impact would be larger with the feathers than the cheese... the force would be spread over a larger area is all..
 
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Since this thread is about Sounds of Explosions I think I'll ask an on topic question hehehehehehe...
Does anyone know the frequency range that various explosives emit? Is it reasonable to assume they do have an unique 'signature'?
I've kinda been looking for that kind of information but alas have not found it yet.

Since this David Chandler fellow seems to have a reasonable grasp on physics and the methods to calculate stuff I'd like to email him with a suggestion that seeks to eliminate from the recordings all but the relevant sounds of explosive substance A, B, C, etc.
Rumblings and bangs and all that don't do it for me... I don't know if I hear what may be a floor falling or a gas tank exploding from a car or what ever... I do hear lots stuff making noise but can't get a handle on what that stuff should sound like either.

Edit: I know low frequency sound is omni directional so I wonder how Chandler can indicate it comes from the Towers and not possibly from a baker slamming some pizza dough on a counter...
 
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I think that just because you break up an object it don't mean it becomes irrelevant to the equation. It may endure more air friction and the resulting acceleration will be slowed but the 2nd law does occur just like Newton figured. [EDIT: Indeed the 1st law too...]
I've often tried to grasp the difference tween a pound of feathers hitting an object and a pound of cheese... absent air friction the only thing different is the area of impact would be larger with the feathers than the cheese... the force would be spread over a larger area is all..
A pound of feathers and a pound of cheese each have differing densities. Because of that they have differing deformation properties, hence differing energy absorbsion upon impact. If you mashed both into masses that had identical densities there would be no difference in impact between the two.

Edit: I guess I should clarify. There's more to it than just density. You also have to consider things like the elastomeric properties of any material, but for the sake of simplifying the argument we'll just assume everything else is equal.

As far as breaking up an object, it has to be done in this case. In essence, a skyscraper like the Twin Towers was basically a box, built on another box, built on another box, all interconnected. Newton's 3rd law still applies, as always, but what Kyle is neglecting is that you can't consider the entire mass of the bottom structure vs the mass of the collapsing partion of the structure. Each floor has individual load bearing properties and when that load is exceeded a floor will fail. No single floor can exert an equal and opposite force of 20 stories crashing down on it because it has nowhere near that amount of potential energy to exert in the first place. A floor fails, the dynamic portion of the structure gains even more mass and crashes into the next floor. Rinse and repeat. It's a simple and inevitable process when you think about it, and no explosives are required at all.
 
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Can you point out that section in the paper? I've got it on my desktop I want to read this part.
The claim is all throught the paper, but the most direct statement of it is here:

The phase of downward propagation of the front will be called the crush-down phase, or Phase I [Fig. 4(b)]. After the lower crushing front hits the ground, the upper crushing front of the compacted zone can begin propagating into the falling upper part of the tower [Fig. 4(d)]. This will be called the crush-up phase, or Phase II...
Note that I'm quoting the more recent Mechanics of Progressive Collapse: Learning from World Trade Center and Building Demolitions paper, though the earlier one is based on the same argument.

They don't apply "equal and opposite force" because the upper section is dynamic while the bottom section is static.
As Newton explained:

To every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction: or the forces of two bodies on each other are always equal and are directed in opposite directions.
That goes for both dynamic and static bodies, always, which again is why nobody can produce any physical demonstration to the contrary.

I think that just because you break up an object it don't mean it becomes irrelevant to the equation.
You are correct, yet Bazant claim of an upper block crushing down ignores the force imparted on that block by what it is supposedly breaking up, in flagrant violation of Newton's third law. This is why you can't defend your assumption that his is expiation his accordance to physical requirements by quoting him, let alone providing a physical demonstration; because Bazant's explanation stands in flagrant violation to the laws of physics.

I've often tried to grasp the difference tween a pound of feathers hitting an object and a pound of cheese... absent air friction the only thing different is the area of impact would be larger with the feathers than the cheese... the force would be spread over a larger area is all..
It depends on how tightly the feathers might be bundled together and how dense the cheese is, as depending on those factors either could do more damage than the other. To exemplify this, take a steel ball just heavy enough to crush a table from a given right. Then take that steel spring of the same mass and drop on that on another such table from the same height, and of course the spring will bounce on the table rather than crushing through it.

Does anyone know the frequency range that various explosives emit? Is it reasonable to assume they do have an unique 'signature'?
No unique signature, particularly in the case of nano-thermite, as that can tailored to react in a wide rage of ways. Unfortunately, the tiny flakes in the dust can't simply be gathered up and packed into a cutter charge to get an idea of what that sounds like, and it's far to complex for all but a few labs in this world to make more.

As for your questions on the sounds in the video, all your arguments seem to ignore the fact that it was 9 booms in quick succession which caused people four blocks away to snap their heads around to look right at the building.
 
As Newton explained:


That goes for both dynamic and static bodies, always, which again is why nobody can produce any physical demonstration to the contrary.
I've already explained this to you. Each floor of the lower, static portion cannot exert an equal force on the upper, dynamic portion because the force of the upper portion far, far exceeds that of each lower floor. That's why each floor progressively fails.

Newton's 3rd law is not violated here. Why are you not comprehending? This is simple stuff.
 
No single floor can exert an equal and opposite force of 20 stories crashing down on it...
Rather, while no single story could take as much force as the 20 or so stories above it, the forces exerted between the two are always equal and opposite, which is why you can't crush the 90 stories below with only 20 stories above. Besides, there's no place to build up the acceleration to crush even a single story simply by working the steel by fire anyway, as that leads to gradual sagging rather than anything like the period of free fall Bazant in fanciful claims. In realty, one could have sawed off the top 20 stores off the towers and dropped them from hundreds of feet above the bottom 90 stories, and both sections would have simply shredded into each other through perhaps 10 stories of each, with the remaining 80 stories below remaining perfectly fine.
 
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Rather, while no single story could take as much force as the 20 or so stories above it, the forces exerted between the two are always equal and opposite, which is why you can't crush the 90 stories below with only 20 stories above. Besides, there's no place to build up the acceleration to crush even a single floor simply by working the steel by fire anyway, as that leads to gradual sagging rather than anything like the period of free fall Bazant in fanciful claims. In realty, one could have sawed off the top 20 stores off the towers and dropped them from hundreds of feet above the bottom 90 stories, and both sections would have simply shredded into each other through perhaps 10 stories of each, with the remaining 80 stories below remaining perfectly fine.
No it is not equal. A single, static story does not have the potential energy to exert a force equal to the dynamic energy of 20+ stories crashing down on it. Not even close. Each floor will fail trying because the kinetic energy of the dynamic mass FAR exceeds the load bearing capabilities of any individual floor. As each floor collapses even more mass is added to the dynamic portion of the collapse which increases the kinetic energy of that mass. It's not going to slow down or stop like you believe. In fact, it's going to gradually accelerate.

Look, you should stop right now. You've made it clear where your lack of physics comprehension lies in this matter and you're starting to make a spectacle of yourself, even if you don't realize why.
 
You are correct, yet Bazant claim of an upper block crushing down ignores the force imparted on that block by what it is supposedly breaking up, in flagrant violation of Newton's third law. This is why you can't defend your assumption that his is expiation his accordance to physical requirements by quoting him, let alone providing a physical demonstration; because Bazant's explanation stands in flagrant violation to the laws of physics.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prwvj-npt5s&feature=related

You should tell these guys they are violating the laws of physics.

No unique signature, particularly in the case of nano-thermite, as that can tailored to react in a wide rage of ways. Unfortunately, the tiny flakes in the dust can't simply be gathered up and packed into a cutter charge to get an idea of what that sounds like, and it's far to complex for all but a few labs in this world to make more.

As for your questions on the sounds in the video, all your arguments seem to ignore the fact that it was 9 booms in quick succession which caused people four blocks away to snap their heads around to look right at the building.

So why can't Harrit and Jones etc. just find other nano-thermite that is the same or close to what they found and test it? Also, if the the thermite was used in explosives why did the towers take hours to fall and why was there molten metal pouring out?
 
A pound of feathers and a pound of cheese each have differing densities. Because of that they have differing deformation properties, hence differing energy absorbsion upon impact. If you mashed both into masses that had identical densities there would be no difference in impact between the two.

Edit: I guess I should clarify. There's more to it than just density. You also have to consider things like the elastomeric properties of any material, but for the sake of simplifying the argument we'll just assume everything else is equal.

That is about what I was trying to say in my arcane way... ()🙂 Except that the feathers might occupy more physical space (assuming they're not all squished together to occupy the same space as the pound of cheese) and therefore, would exert that same force but over a larger area.


As far as breaking up an object, it has to be done in this case. In essence, a skyscraper like the Twin Towers was basically a box, built on another box, built on another box, all interconnected. Newton's 3rd law still applies, as always, but what Kyle is neglecting is that you can't consider the entire mass of the bottom structure vs the mass of the collapsing partion of the structure. Each floor has individual load bearing properties and when that load is exceeded a floor will fail. No single floor can exert an equal and opposite force of 20 stories crashing down on it because it has nowhere near that amount of potential energy to exert in the first place. A floor fails, the dynamic portion of the structure gains even more mass and crashes into the next floor. Rinse and repeat. It's a simple and inevitable process when you think about it, and no explosives are required at all.

I think that [the second part of your post] is reasonable and what Bazant is suggesting. I'm simply saying that he don't reject the Laws but, rather, assumes there is sufficient mass to break the bottom bit floor by floor and because if that upper bloc was to interact alone it would be eventually broken up because it too is not unlike the bottom bit... but its mass would still survive in some configuration ... lots of little bits of former big bit now occupying a smaller physical area is how I see it..
As I said in some other post, I can see it all happening without explosives. But, that there are some things that don't get answered by Bazant's theory... The molten stuff at the base, the tons of steel found so far away, the apparent loss of mass of the upper bit and subsequent bits not found at the base of the collapse but all over Manhattan, the dripping molten stuff and other things like that.
Obviously if there are answers to all those oddities innocently caused by a Bazant type theory then so be it... I've no agenda to further and accept that the Moon exists not cuz I can see it but because if it didn't Moonbeam would be a figment of my imagination.
 
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