It will be years before we have a medium with enough space for multichannel uncompressed PCM. Even DVD needs compression to fit 6 channel audio and hifi video. Not to mention that simultaneous multichannel large data transfer has a ways to go before its feasible for interactive content. Until we get past those technological hurdles we're stuck with compression...just accept it.
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Audigy 2 has 6.1 channel audio, but still not really better than SB Live!?
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It will be years before we have a medium with enough space for multichannel uncompressed PCM. Even DVD needs compression to fit 6 channel audio and hifi video. Not to mention that simultaneous multichannel large data transfer has a ways to go before its feasible for interactive content. Until we get past those technological hurdles we're stuck with compression...just accept it.
Originally posted by: Shiva112
Originally posted by: Accord99
It will be years before we have a medium with enough space for multichannel uncompressed PCM. Even DVD needs compression to fit 6 channel audio and hifi video. Not to mention that simultaneous multichannel large data transfer has a ways to go before its feasible for interactive content. Until we get past those technological hurdles we're stuck with compression...just accept it.
Gaming audio is generated on the fly, so there's no need to have the large storage space needed for DVD-A and such, and is already uncompressed full bandwidth PCM and ready to be outputted to speakers. There is no need to further compress the gaming audio into DD.
Well, then you need an interface with enough bandwidth to transfer the full bandwidth 5.1 channel digital signal to an external decoder, or be forced to do it on board. S/PDIF doesn't have enough bandwidth for that IMHO, and a standard digital interface for DVD-A and SACD hasn't been established either, so you're left with either proprietary interfaces, which would be a nightmare in compatibility, or doing everything in the soundcard and then output analog signals via the analog RCA output, and have to mess with more noise and 5 more cables.
Part of the problem goes back to the old saying that "A chain is only as good as it's weakest link." In most cases, the speakers are the weakest link. If one does not have high quality speakers, a high quality sound card isn't going to do a bit of good. Of course, I noticed quite a difference in quality when moving to the Philips Acoustic Edge over the SB Live! Value which I used for years. However, I have reasonably good speakers (FPS1800s), so I have no doubt that if I had some generic speakers or a cheap 2.1 setup, then I would have noticed no difference. Another part of the problem is that sound quality is subjective. Some people like softer, crisper, boomier, or more timbre filled sound. It all depends on the person.
The eax advanced HD showed promise, but I've yet to see it fully implemented properly. Hell, I've yet to see eax1 or eax2 used to its full potential. Its been out for years, but developers pay no attention to it. I think that some proper reverb that changes as you move from room to room would be awesome, but its always been entirely too buggy, or totally non-existant. It seems like a trend for games nowadays to not even support 3d audio at all. Wtf?
Woodchuck2000
Golden Member
I meant real time dolby digital encoding n-force style, but hey...
The speaker debate is always going to rage on. Computer speakers perform their intended function very well at their price point as do HT setups. I'm currently using a bizarre hybrid DTT3500 system where I've replaced the satellites with small 2-way bookshelf speakers and the sound has improved immensely.
As far as product refreshes go, It's exactly the same as nVidia's refresh cycle albeit slower. The GF3 ti500 was a minor improvement over the original GF3 but it did move the market on slightly. The only big leaps I've really seen have been the SB16 -> AWE32 -> Live! -> Audigy and even then, SB16->AWE32 and indeed Live!->Audigy weren't massive upgrades. I'm using an Audigy purely because my 6-year-old Live! Original is a little knackered from years of abuse.
The speaker debate is always going to rage on. Computer speakers perform their intended function very well at their price point as do HT setups. I'm currently using a bizarre hybrid DTT3500 system where I've replaced the satellites with small 2-way bookshelf speakers and the sound has improved immensely.
As far as product refreshes go, It's exactly the same as nVidia's refresh cycle albeit slower. The GF3 ti500 was a minor improvement over the original GF3 but it did move the market on slightly. The only big leaps I've really seen have been the SB16 -> AWE32 -> Live! -> Audigy and even then, SB16->AWE32 and indeed Live!->Audigy weren't massive upgrades. I'm using an Audigy purely because my 6-year-old Live! Original is a little knackered from years of abuse.
Thanks for the general discussion...
I realize (I think) that's there is a long way to go before we have "real" sound, different technologies or ideas. In that, it may take some effort to bring the recording industry online with the changes too.
My understanding is that DTS-ES is true (discrete channel) information because of the addition of the recording source as opposed to a matrixed sound, which is no new sound information but shifted information (frequecy, time, whatever). I am not saying I prefer one over the other but the right and capacity to listen to either as I see fit on my PC.
I have z560's on a 450 that servers as my stereo, DVD player, game box, (line up for your arguements about upgrading). I've connected an ACS56, Z-560 and variety of 16watt - 1.5 watt speakers all at the same time at different levels, and sorry to say for you pure-ists or technocrats that I enjoyed the pervasiveness of the surrounding speaker system at different heights, tone and volume.
I really like getting a DVD that has DTS 5.1 and DD 5.1 on it at the same time. I want to listen to similar DVD's that have DTS-ES and DD-EX as well. The media is " HERE-NOW ". the technology is too. It's the manufacturer's who want ot lead us through a slow painful upgrade process snagging people at different levels of the market with a myriad of offerings. Yeah it's the American way, buyer beware, all that malarky. No, that's just their words to get you to swallow.
So the focus is on product's that we should have now, not what I should/might get tomdistract me or where the industry should be R & D 'ing.
.. and hey I may be wrong about what I should have, the technology, etc but the industry should be interested enough in the client base to keep them informed, corrected and offer them real choices, not marketing's idea of how to grab more $$$.
And what's wrong with DTS or THX Ultra 2? Give me the power!!
I realize (I think) that's there is a long way to go before we have "real" sound, different technologies or ideas. In that, it may take some effort to bring the recording industry online with the changes too.
My understanding is that DTS-ES is true (discrete channel) information because of the addition of the recording source as opposed to a matrixed sound, which is no new sound information but shifted information (frequecy, time, whatever). I am not saying I prefer one over the other but the right and capacity to listen to either as I see fit on my PC.
I have z560's on a 450 that servers as my stereo, DVD player, game box, (line up for your arguements about upgrading). I've connected an ACS56, Z-560 and variety of 16watt - 1.5 watt speakers all at the same time at different levels, and sorry to say for you pure-ists or technocrats that I enjoyed the pervasiveness of the surrounding speaker system at different heights, tone and volume.
I really like getting a DVD that has DTS 5.1 and DD 5.1 on it at the same time. I want to listen to similar DVD's that have DTS-ES and DD-EX as well. The media is " HERE-NOW ". the technology is too. It's the manufacturer's who want ot lead us through a slow painful upgrade process snagging people at different levels of the market with a myriad of offerings. Yeah it's the American way, buyer beware, all that malarky. No, that's just their words to get you to swallow.
So the focus is on product's that we should have now, not what I should/might get tomdistract me or where the industry should be R & D 'ing.
.. and hey I may be wrong about what I should have, the technology, etc but the industry should be interested enough in the client base to keep them informed, corrected and offer them real choices, not marketing's idea of how to grab more $$$.
And what's wrong with DTS or THX Ultra 2? Give me the power!!
DTS-ES has many modes - DTS-ES Discrete, DTS-ES Matrix and DTS-ES NeoMy understanding is that DTS-ES is true (discrete channel) information because of the addition of the recording source as opposed to a matrixed sound, which is no new sound information but shifted information (frequecy, time, whatever). I am not saying I prefer one over the other but the right and capacity to listen to either as I see fit on my PC
DTS-ES Discrete and Matrix - I believe you know what they mean. DTS-ES Neo is the music listening mode similar to DPL2. Most people prefer DPL2 though.
I don't think any of these 7.1 formats will take off in the computer front though, for the obvious reasons that I've already pointed out.
"Is there anything coming out for the THX Ultra2 standard?"
THX is not an audio standard, it's a group of "quality" certifications (Games, Multimedia, Select, Ultra/Ultra2) which can be applied to any of the standards (DD, DTS, DTS-ES, etc...).
"I really like getting a DVD that has DTS 5.1 and DD 5.1 on it at the same time. I want to listen to similar DVD's that have DTS-ES and DD-EX as well. The media is " HERE-NOW ". the technology is too. It's the manufacturer's who want ot lead us through a slow painful upgrade process snagging people at different levels of the market with a myriad of offerings. Yeah it's the American way, buyer beware, all that malarky. No, that's just their words to get you to swallow."
I don't really see where you are going with all of this and what follows it. There is plenty of equipment out there that is capable of everything you mentioned above. All it takes is the money to get it.
THX is not an audio standard, it's a group of "quality" certifications (Games, Multimedia, Select, Ultra/Ultra2) which can be applied to any of the standards (DD, DTS, DTS-ES, etc...).
"I really like getting a DVD that has DTS 5.1 and DD 5.1 on it at the same time. I want to listen to similar DVD's that have DTS-ES and DD-EX as well. The media is " HERE-NOW ". the technology is too. It's the manufacturer's who want ot lead us through a slow painful upgrade process snagging people at different levels of the market with a myriad of offerings. Yeah it's the American way, buyer beware, all that malarky. No, that's just their words to get you to swallow."
I don't really see where you are going with all of this and what follows it. There is plenty of equipment out there that is capable of everything you mentioned above. All it takes is the money to get it.
My mistake?
I had made the assumption that most people want to examine things for themselves rather than have an industry decide, whether they do this through the most "popular" choice or some technical decisions on which marketing has decided, of the things to support. But this must be why makers get away with a lot of the cheap a stuff they put in, or these proprietary ?offerings?.
Products should allow flexibility allowing the individual experiment. Why do I have to have money to do all this? If we all had money why would we even feel slightly compelled to discourse through the community or forum, these ideas, we?d be more likely to just have someone else do all the work for us. Unless of course we have that human need to feel superior by sounding it. ( hahaha .. geek pun ). Why I bet some of us go out in public with 3 day old socks and then correctify others over their use of categories or provide absolute correctness to those we feel need it. Loosen your buttons gentle people.
My intent is to check the parameters of this ?envelope? [state of the industry and state of technology (ref business vs customer attitudes)], perhaps even suggest pushing for efforts or a focus on sound, accountability and value.
It has been the lack of vendor responses, no matter what person is making a request, that makes it obvious it?s a glut of huwey.
Reminds me of everyone at work. Everyone knows everything and there?s no room for anyone else that isn?t carrying a flag. Then there are the players balls that pretend to be assisting but are just pandering
These countries were made on independent thinkers, not rebels, they definitely weren?t mooooing.
If I am so wrong in looking for products that support my perception of current trends in sound then I?d have least expected a high sounding response from any of the sound card makers I?ve contacted with an object, and, innocently enough, straightforward query.
Tell me I?m wrong, give me a product announcement, release some information. Why once I even had to cut the head off my acs56?s front right speaker to get the controls where I wanted them, (extended over a left placed subwoofer), because Altech Lansing would not answer me about the pin-outs on the mini-din control cable. I had a engineer verify my work and even redo it so it wasn?t just a straight forward extension cable.
I had to wait for my GE4 420 PCI with s-video but I got it, and at the price I wanted. (Let me assure you it was worth the wait. I?ll upgrade when they stop dangling us down the road with offerings that are far behind the technology that?s available. Too many sheep and dragon chasers to get them to do it right I guess). So I?m diggingin my heels?. Lock and load.
Rico
I had made the assumption that most people want to examine things for themselves rather than have an industry decide, whether they do this through the most "popular" choice or some technical decisions on which marketing has decided, of the things to support. But this must be why makers get away with a lot of the cheap a stuff they put in, or these proprietary ?offerings?.
Products should allow flexibility allowing the individual experiment. Why do I have to have money to do all this? If we all had money why would we even feel slightly compelled to discourse through the community or forum, these ideas, we?d be more likely to just have someone else do all the work for us. Unless of course we have that human need to feel superior by sounding it. ( hahaha .. geek pun ). Why I bet some of us go out in public with 3 day old socks and then correctify others over their use of categories or provide absolute correctness to those we feel need it. Loosen your buttons gentle people.
My intent is to check the parameters of this ?envelope? [state of the industry and state of technology (ref business vs customer attitudes)], perhaps even suggest pushing for efforts or a focus on sound, accountability and value.
It has been the lack of vendor responses, no matter what person is making a request, that makes it obvious it?s a glut of huwey.
Reminds me of everyone at work. Everyone knows everything and there?s no room for anyone else that isn?t carrying a flag. Then there are the players balls that pretend to be assisting but are just pandering
These countries were made on independent thinkers, not rebels, they definitely weren?t mooooing.
If I am so wrong in looking for products that support my perception of current trends in sound then I?d have least expected a high sounding response from any of the sound card makers I?ve contacted with an object, and, innocently enough, straightforward query.
Tell me I?m wrong, give me a product announcement, release some information. Why once I even had to cut the head off my acs56?s front right speaker to get the controls where I wanted them, (extended over a left placed subwoofer), because Altech Lansing would not answer me about the pin-outs on the mini-din control cable. I had a engineer verify my work and even redo it so it wasn?t just a straight forward extension cable.
I had to wait for my GE4 420 PCI with s-video but I got it, and at the price I wanted. (Let me assure you it was worth the wait. I?ll upgrade when they stop dangling us down the road with offerings that are far behind the technology that?s available. Too many sheep and dragon chasers to get them to do it right I guess). So I?m diggingin my heels?. Lock and load.
Rico
Back!...
Well Lo and behold... a response. Audiotrak got back to me and specifically stated that the Maya 7.1 & Maya 7.1 Gold support the DTS-ES standard. Of course I did thank them as the only respondent.
I am trying to examine the specs properly and again end up stymied, could be lysdexia (apologies to any that suffer this challenge, I have other impenedeces keeping me on edge and have been commissioned with making fun of the world in general with a promise never to take myself too seriously (like that's ever gonna happen). any ways, meanwhile back at the ranch)... looking over the pdf of the manual shows a 7.1 setup as center (dead on) + left center (25 degrees off center from target) and right center (25 degrees) + left (45 degrees) and right (45 degrees) and rear left (135) and right (135) (purists, read that as; surround left and surround right).
I've already got it set up that way with channel splitters and " Y 's " so that the 2 tv speakers are the center with two 12.5 RMS watts each left and right on the floor beside the tv. The ACS56 left and right are set below eye level at about 45 degrees and the z-560's a tad above eye level just a touch wider at about 50 degrees. The rears are about comperable to the front set up except at eye levels. I run the acs's about wid way in treb and bass and the z560 with the base a way down and match the volumes by ear. I just noticed on the SB 5.1 live s/w for XP there's a cross over adjust... and would I ever like to get my hands on that and a good graphics equalizer (s/w based).
Since this info was deliquent forth coming from this crowd, I'll make the assumption that few have traversed this road and are not qualified to respond if there is true DTS - ES discrete capabilities on the Mayas but investigate other avenues.
Thanks for the help and thoughts,
Like pulling teeth in glass houses over spilt milk...
Riko
Well Lo and behold... a response. Audiotrak got back to me and specifically stated that the Maya 7.1 & Maya 7.1 Gold support the DTS-ES standard. Of course I did thank them as the only respondent.
I am trying to examine the specs properly and again end up stymied, could be lysdexia (apologies to any that suffer this challenge, I have other impenedeces keeping me on edge and have been commissioned with making fun of the world in general with a promise never to take myself too seriously (like that's ever gonna happen). any ways, meanwhile back at the ranch)... looking over the pdf of the manual shows a 7.1 setup as center (dead on) + left center (25 degrees off center from target) and right center (25 degrees) + left (45 degrees) and right (45 degrees) and rear left (135) and right (135) (purists, read that as; surround left and surround right).
I've already got it set up that way with channel splitters and " Y 's " so that the 2 tv speakers are the center with two 12.5 RMS watts each left and right on the floor beside the tv. The ACS56 left and right are set below eye level at about 45 degrees and the z-560's a tad above eye level just a touch wider at about 50 degrees. The rears are about comperable to the front set up except at eye levels. I run the acs's about wid way in treb and bass and the z560 with the base a way down and match the volumes by ear. I just noticed on the SB 5.1 live s/w for XP there's a cross over adjust... and would I ever like to get my hands on that and a good graphics equalizer (s/w based).
Since this info was deliquent forth coming from this crowd, I'll make the assumption that few have traversed this road and are not qualified to respond if there is true DTS - ES discrete capabilities on the Mayas but investigate other avenues.
Thanks for the help and thoughts,
Like pulling teeth in glass houses over spilt milk...
Riko
Well, what can I say.. no one is forcing you to upgrade but "innovations" comes in steps.
This time Audigy2 supports true 24bit/96khz but also true DVD-Audio Advanced Resolution, which is 24bit/96khz or 24bit/196kHz. Something most soundcarsd won't be able to do.. for quite some time.
Furthermore, the addition of a 6th discrete channel greatly improves the gaming experience (yes I've tried it) and it works seamless with games with good DirectSound3D implementation. EAX Advanced HD.. nothing changed except for the sixth channel.
DD-EX is now supported.. but the "sixth" channel in DD-EX is not discrete.. because it needs to be backwards compatible with DD5.1 systems.. which is why the "EX" channel is a mix of the rear channels.
Quality of the components on the Audigy2 has also been improved.. going with DACs from Cirrus Logic (CS4382) greatly improves signal quality.
I could go on and on.. but then again, I'm biased.. you decide for yourselves.
/Chih-Hao Kung
This time Audigy2 supports true 24bit/96khz but also true DVD-Audio Advanced Resolution, which is 24bit/96khz or 24bit/196kHz. Something most soundcarsd won't be able to do.. for quite some time.
Furthermore, the addition of a 6th discrete channel greatly improves the gaming experience (yes I've tried it) and it works seamless with games with good DirectSound3D implementation. EAX Advanced HD.. nothing changed except for the sixth channel.
DD-EX is now supported.. but the "sixth" channel in DD-EX is not discrete.. because it needs to be backwards compatible with DD5.1 systems.. which is why the "EX" channel is a mix of the rear channels.
Quality of the components on the Audigy2 has also been improved.. going with DACs from Cirrus Logic (CS4382) greatly improves signal quality.
I could go on and on.. but then again, I'm biased.. you decide for yourselves.
/Chih-Hao Kung
AudioTrak seems to be a bit off the mark here.
The Auditrak the maker of the Maya 7, whatever, was the only sound card maker that did respond to questions, something I find rather suspicious in itself. [I'll be the last one todefend a company because it wants to roll out products slowly trying to leverage the market ($) by only incorporating one 'new' innovation at a time.]
The (un-) 'techie' told me specifically that Maya does support DTS-ES. But checking their on-line documentation they support 7.1 [front left right, center left-right center, and rear left right.] This is not DTS-ES 6.1 (discrete). Subsequent communiques to the same (non)-'techie' found his/her responses evasive or really lacking in quality info. So I do not believe, if they haven't documented it properly in the manuals, or can not dicuss it intelligently in letters/notes, Maya supports DTS-ES (NOT!).
Someone also replied in this thread that they have heard the 6.1 DTS-ES (discrete). This had to be on a separate audio system, right? Otherwise they would have told me the sound card they were using to support this , right?
Then again there are a lot of people out there that beleive they know and will stand up to make excuses for the industry. Show me the money!!!
I want a PC solution that allows me to listen to the DD 6.1 and DTS-ES 6.1 that is now coming out on DVD's. Freakin too much to ask?
Rico
The Auditrak the maker of the Maya 7, whatever, was the only sound card maker that did respond to questions, something I find rather suspicious in itself. [I'll be the last one todefend a company because it wants to roll out products slowly trying to leverage the market ($) by only incorporating one 'new' innovation at a time.]
The (un-) 'techie' told me specifically that Maya does support DTS-ES. But checking their on-line documentation they support 7.1 [front left right, center left-right center, and rear left right.] This is not DTS-ES 6.1 (discrete). Subsequent communiques to the same (non)-'techie' found his/her responses evasive or really lacking in quality info. So I do not believe, if they haven't documented it properly in the manuals, or can not dicuss it intelligently in letters/notes, Maya supports DTS-ES (NOT!).
Someone also replied in this thread that they have heard the 6.1 DTS-ES (discrete). This had to be on a separate audio system, right? Otherwise they would have told me the sound card they were using to support this , right?
Then again there are a lot of people out there that beleive they know and will stand up to make excuses for the industry. Show me the money!!!
I want a PC solution that allows me to listen to the DD 6.1 and DTS-ES 6.1 that is now coming out on DVD's. Freakin too much to ask?
Rico
Dolby DIgital EX is not discrete 6.1 . Dolby DIgital EX is still regarded as a "5.1" system because the 'sixth' channel (rear-center) is not discrete but is a mix of the rear left and right channels. Oh and also, the "sixth" DD-EX channel is mono (obviously).
"7.1" as some manufacturers state, is just two rear-center speakers running the same MONO sound.. but through two speakers... which is ok if you have a larger living-room or the likes... but it does nothing on positioning of sound.
DD-EX is easily supported by soundcards as the calculations can be done in software (through CPU) with for instance PowerDVD EX. All manufacturers have to do is to include output to a rear-center channel.
"fake" 7.1 systems work the same, but with two rear-center speakers.. sharing the mono channel..
Audigy 2 can do 6.1 discrete (in games) and does DD-EX (which is not discrete 6.1) but it doesn't do DTS-ES.. and I am yet to see a consumer product to do so..
Most movies are also not shot in DTS-ES mode, which means that they use a separate microphone to record the discrete sixth channel for DTS sound.
And most DVDs supporting DTS-ES are just using a mixed mode DTS which works exactly as DD-EX (mix of rear left and right)....
"7.1" as some manufacturers state, is just two rear-center speakers running the same MONO sound.. but through two speakers... which is ok if you have a larger living-room or the likes... but it does nothing on positioning of sound.
DD-EX is easily supported by soundcards as the calculations can be done in software (through CPU) with for instance PowerDVD EX. All manufacturers have to do is to include output to a rear-center channel.
"fake" 7.1 systems work the same, but with two rear-center speakers.. sharing the mono channel..
Audigy 2 can do 6.1 discrete (in games) and does DD-EX (which is not discrete 6.1) but it doesn't do DTS-ES.. and I am yet to see a consumer product to do so..
Most movies are also not shot in DTS-ES mode, which means that they use a separate microphone to record the discrete sixth channel for DTS sound.
And most DVDs supporting DTS-ES are just using a mixed mode DTS which works exactly as DD-EX (mix of rear left and right)....
Don?t mean to sound rude? nor close minded?. I love being schooled...
Chubben sounds like me responding to other respondents, going over again everyone?s corrections of classifications and categories, specifications and standards. To save a lot of reading for those who actually understand the issues at stake here. They make DVD?s with DD-EX and DTS-ES, I want a card to provide this sound from my PC. Can?t be a lot of work, lord knows it?s just separating a channel or mixing a couple together, or maybe (because I can?t find a software channel "graphic equalizer" worth a darn either) the state of the PC sound industry is far, far more inferior than we thought and all that they are capable of producing are interfaces after interfaces, a couple of doodads and doohickies and no real ability to keep up with emerging trends.
And who?s says American students are at the bottom of the international science and math pile,.. (TIMMS does)... Lord knows they sure know how to read email and correct other's mistakes. Get some kahunas people!! take on an industry.. waa waa waa
Chubben my good man?.
Wasn?t saying ex was discrete (new info) but would like to play my dvd?s this way (DD -EX), as well as DTS-ES. Check Audiotrak, they?re saying 7.1 is two extra front center speakers (left and right) in the specifications and user manuals, golly gee talk about exploiting disinformation in the market.
While I am by no means a rich man I have experimented with varieties of smaller speakers positioning as well as the acs56 and z560?s. Seems that even though the information is the same the sound was more rich, pervasive and unobtrusive at the same time, running from a multitude of sources. I believe that there may be benefits to having different types of speakers at different positions (3d - height as well as north/south/east/west). Do you imagine higher frequency waves travel in a different way than lower frequency? (Bounce, decay, yadayadayada).
Sounds like you may be making excuses for the industry. CPU calculations?hmm? Are you sure these aren?t done on the sound card processor? Incidentally, and while we are speaking of it, would it not also be easier from a design and processor point of view to just decode the extra channel (as in DTS-ES) and pass it through rather than duplicate, separate, decay, shift etc etc etc some other channels? I?m not an engineer,? you tell me. Incidently, again, Powerdvd is supposed to support dts-es.
I?ve been getting dvd?s that have the dts-es and dd-ex and would like to see the pc industry keep up with consumer demands. Not excuses, not silence, just a show of proactive (hahahaha) marketing instead seeing how they are blatantly deciding how they can leverage even more money away from the consumer.
Think about all the upgrades and the industry ?standards?. It is only to the businesses ends that this makes any sense and you, me, nor anyojne else that matters will never get a piece of it.
If I have to be at the industries' mercy, at least I can make a few demands before I expire. Let us talk of this reasonably and decide if we deserve to have any options in how our PC sound systems are configured and the capabilities of these systems.
Chubben sounds like me responding to other respondents, going over again everyone?s corrections of classifications and categories, specifications and standards. To save a lot of reading for those who actually understand the issues at stake here. They make DVD?s with DD-EX and DTS-ES, I want a card to provide this sound from my PC. Can?t be a lot of work, lord knows it?s just separating a channel or mixing a couple together, or maybe (because I can?t find a software channel "graphic equalizer" worth a darn either) the state of the PC sound industry is far, far more inferior than we thought and all that they are capable of producing are interfaces after interfaces, a couple of doodads and doohickies and no real ability to keep up with emerging trends.
And who?s says American students are at the bottom of the international science and math pile,.. (TIMMS does)... Lord knows they sure know how to read email and correct other's mistakes. Get some kahunas people!! take on an industry.. waa waa waa
Chubben my good man?.
Wasn?t saying ex was discrete (new info) but would like to play my dvd?s this way (DD -EX), as well as DTS-ES. Check Audiotrak, they?re saying 7.1 is two extra front center speakers (left and right) in the specifications and user manuals, golly gee talk about exploiting disinformation in the market.
While I am by no means a rich man I have experimented with varieties of smaller speakers positioning as well as the acs56 and z560?s. Seems that even though the information is the same the sound was more rich, pervasive and unobtrusive at the same time, running from a multitude of sources. I believe that there may be benefits to having different types of speakers at different positions (3d - height as well as north/south/east/west). Do you imagine higher frequency waves travel in a different way than lower frequency? (Bounce, decay, yadayadayada).
Sounds like you may be making excuses for the industry. CPU calculations?hmm? Are you sure these aren?t done on the sound card processor? Incidentally, and while we are speaking of it, would it not also be easier from a design and processor point of view to just decode the extra channel (as in DTS-ES) and pass it through rather than duplicate, separate, decay, shift etc etc etc some other channels? I?m not an engineer,? you tell me. Incidently, again, Powerdvd is supposed to support dts-es.
I?ve been getting dvd?s that have the dts-es and dd-ex and would like to see the pc industry keep up with consumer demands. Not excuses, not silence, just a show of proactive (hahahaha) marketing instead seeing how they are blatantly deciding how they can leverage even more money away from the consumer.
Think about all the upgrades and the industry ?standards?. It is only to the businesses ends that this makes any sense and you, me, nor anyojne else that matters will never get a piece of it.
If I have to be at the industries' mercy, at least I can make a few demands before I expire. Let us talk of this reasonably and decide if we deserve to have any options in how our PC sound systems are configured and the capabilities of these systems.
The reason no one is pushing for these features on a PC, is because no one wants them on a PC except you. Anyone who is concerned about these features already has a home theater setup. Having a 7.1+ setup on a PC just doesn't make any sense. All the speakers are too close together for you to be able place sounds, negating the point of having that many speakers in the first place. The PC is not designed to be the center piece of a HT setup. The most important pieces of a high quality audio setup are the speakers, and even the perceived best in the computer industry (Klipsch, CL Megaworks, VideoLogic) are complete garbage compared to even entry level (sub $1000/pair) HT speakers. No matter how good the audio coming out of the PC is, you will still need an external amp/receiver to drive the speakers. Any receiver with enough amplified channels to drive the number of speakers you are asking for, will be able to decode every DD and DTS standard, eliminating any need for the PC to be able to do it.
Sounds like you?re trying to take this to a personal level? this is the 1st that I?ve encountered that I am the "only one"? and since we are getting into rhetoric? how do you know I am the only one? Should I bow? People should not be afraid to stand out and demand what they want. People that I?ve talked to would like the variety of choice rather than let the industry decide. I can not imagine a business ever having a bad idea, can you? But I am sure there are a lot of willful enough people out there that would set any body wanting a choice straight,? and by the way thank you for that.
"Of course you?re the only one, dear?." I?ve had reasonable discussions in many forums but none are able to absolutely provide a responsible account of why this shouldn't, can?t, isn?t done, (DTS-ES). I have run into the "EXPERTS" that are so very eager and quick to tell people how ridiculous they are for asking, these people must have such wonderful lives or this is what they get paid to do.
I did not ask for a 7.1 setup, like I said in the last e-mail (?sure know how to read dem e-mails and but really like ta rip people up) Why is there never a shortage of opinions from them? Again for the reading challenged and exceptionally arrogant children that have absolutely gotta try and "put somebody in their place" I am not asking for 7.1, just DTS-ES sound cards for PC a standard (oops) which is now being released on DVD movies. Why your e-mails are not busy hunting down everyone that think DD 5.1 is a nice change over 4.1 I?ll never know, it?s a standard that?s obvious no good for us. How could we possibly derive any benefit or enjoyment out of it on such poor quality hardware? Heck why stop there, our ears are not completely diametrically opposed so stereo is no darn good either, attack! Blue!!, attack! Ok who?s let the miniature pitbulls in here?
So semantically, what exactly is too close? And at what volumes is this too close? Do you know that they make extensions and spliters. How does this "negate" the point of having many speakers and what in the heck is the point of having many speakers? I thought it was for my enjoyment, or will you next tell me that I would not enjoy this and neither would anyone else? Why was a PC designed again,? exactly for what you think it should be used for. Please circumscribe the boundaries of PC use to me and don?t forget to include a definition of innovation in there, forward thinking, inventiveness and resourcefulness. I know you have probably heard and seen it all so please just dismiss me and don?t hurt me.
Since our animal like ears are incapable of enjoying all that is in your kingdom why do you allow computer sound equipment to be manufactured your highness?
Anyone serious about sound wouldn?t waste their time listening to it on speakers and letting people know how incapable their ears are or how poor they are, but would actually be there? I have been there?so now I want something of reasonable quality and little expense to reminisce ?
"Complete garbage" sounds so objective and honest.. was it a car you wanted to sell me? Since you are so sure, adamant, and beyond reproach about sound quality issues why don?t you buy me a good setup and make me a believer.
Or show me the specs for an average sound system and a good PC system and tell me why I won?t enjoy it as much?
Sit on the sidelines and snipe this....
Show me the Money!!!!
"Of course you?re the only one, dear?." I?ve had reasonable discussions in many forums but none are able to absolutely provide a responsible account of why this shouldn't, can?t, isn?t done, (DTS-ES). I have run into the "EXPERTS" that are so very eager and quick to tell people how ridiculous they are for asking, these people must have such wonderful lives or this is what they get paid to do.
I did not ask for a 7.1 setup, like I said in the last e-mail (?sure know how to read dem e-mails and but really like ta rip people up) Why is there never a shortage of opinions from them? Again for the reading challenged and exceptionally arrogant children that have absolutely gotta try and "put somebody in their place" I am not asking for 7.1, just DTS-ES sound cards for PC a standard (oops) which is now being released on DVD movies. Why your e-mails are not busy hunting down everyone that think DD 5.1 is a nice change over 4.1 I?ll never know, it?s a standard that?s obvious no good for us. How could we possibly derive any benefit or enjoyment out of it on such poor quality hardware? Heck why stop there, our ears are not completely diametrically opposed so stereo is no darn good either, attack! Blue!!, attack! Ok who?s let the miniature pitbulls in here?
So semantically, what exactly is too close? And at what volumes is this too close? Do you know that they make extensions and spliters. How does this "negate" the point of having many speakers and what in the heck is the point of having many speakers? I thought it was for my enjoyment, or will you next tell me that I would not enjoy this and neither would anyone else? Why was a PC designed again,? exactly for what you think it should be used for. Please circumscribe the boundaries of PC use to me and don?t forget to include a definition of innovation in there, forward thinking, inventiveness and resourcefulness. I know you have probably heard and seen it all so please just dismiss me and don?t hurt me.
Since our animal like ears are incapable of enjoying all that is in your kingdom why do you allow computer sound equipment to be manufactured your highness?
Anyone serious about sound wouldn?t waste their time listening to it on speakers and letting people know how incapable their ears are or how poor they are, but would actually be there? I have been there?so now I want something of reasonable quality and little expense to reminisce ?
"Complete garbage" sounds so objective and honest.. was it a car you wanted to sell me? Since you are so sure, adamant, and beyond reproach about sound quality issues why don?t you buy me a good setup and make me a believer.
Or show me the specs for an average sound system and a good PC system and tell me why I won?t enjoy it as much?
Sit on the sidelines and snipe this....
Show me the Money!!!!
What on earth dude, did someone piss in your Corn Flakes this morning? As for you being the only one, that was not meant to be taken as a literal statement. I'm sure out of the 6+ billion people on this planet, at least one other person is as passionate about getting DTS ES on a PC as you are. Though, I will say that there are over 100,000 registered users on this board, and up to this point, you are in fact, literally, the only one so far to say you covet these features so greatly in this thread. The conspicuous absence of comments to your posts should tell you something.
No offence taken dude...
I want it, it should be there or why just have sound cards with DD-EX. There are 3 so far that proport to carry the DD-EX. How does your explanation fit in to this. DTS-ES is not worthy on pc equipment but DD-EX is? Now you can teach me.
It's not your words it's where you take your line of logic.
In spite of being told over and over again about what each demarcation of the sound industry's latest offerings stand for, like I didn't know before or didn't know after the 2st 300 times, I've gotten no objective commentaries about DTS vs DD, DTS-ES vs DD-EX. Personally I think a 6th discrete channel is far below the level of human capabilities and where the technology should be, but it's there on my dvd's, somebody put it on a card. My girlfriend has an audio system... which fo us poo fook is good about 100 watt front left right, 150 watt center 35 watt rear (go figure.. girls!!), and a 200 watt sub. It's really nice and my sub can't come close enough to the 12 inch sub for fidelity but talk about lack of sparkle and realism. I perfer my pc setup. I do beleive the mass produced "hometheater" system at about $400 - $800 a pop are inferior, but for the masses and meant to make a real lot of money for manufacturers.
I'm old enough to know that most people get real vocal about very specific things and are not too comfortable discussing things that aren't their own ideas unless they're part of a cult or "group" or something. The inability of an audience is not my concern, I expressed an idea in a controvesial enough way and enough humor to spark intelligence. The motivation should come from within and not hide from the shadows.
I've also learned from being a trashman that even the lowliest deserves my attentionn and an answer. The industry faulters.
Fear not... I know what I want, I know what is good,... I seek information honestly, but not without frustration. Getting people together is not my problem.
I guess by the way you speak of this community your are their leader or self appointed spokesman? I thought if they had something to offer they'd add it, rahter than you speak for them. Maybe they don't like sound issues, maybe they have no experience ... perhaps it is the way I attack the industry and can't be bought. I know you know I'm not intimidated...
I am curious also about the use of the expression you used, it is neither subtle nor calm, and very dated. I guess the fact that you used it was a retro thing and consquently very funny, or have we developed that level of humor here yet?
PS let's get back to sound thing and tell me why with my money my choice is inferior. How about the specs, please.
Pappy
I want it, it should be there or why just have sound cards with DD-EX. There are 3 so far that proport to carry the DD-EX. How does your explanation fit in to this. DTS-ES is not worthy on pc equipment but DD-EX is? Now you can teach me.
It's not your words it's where you take your line of logic.
In spite of being told over and over again about what each demarcation of the sound industry's latest offerings stand for, like I didn't know before or didn't know after the 2st 300 times, I've gotten no objective commentaries about DTS vs DD, DTS-ES vs DD-EX. Personally I think a 6th discrete channel is far below the level of human capabilities and where the technology should be, but it's there on my dvd's, somebody put it on a card. My girlfriend has an audio system... which fo us poo fook is good about 100 watt front left right, 150 watt center 35 watt rear (go figure.. girls!!), and a 200 watt sub. It's really nice and my sub can't come close enough to the 12 inch sub for fidelity but talk about lack of sparkle and realism. I perfer my pc setup. I do beleive the mass produced "hometheater" system at about $400 - $800 a pop are inferior, but for the masses and meant to make a real lot of money for manufacturers.
I'm old enough to know that most people get real vocal about very specific things and are not too comfortable discussing things that aren't their own ideas unless they're part of a cult or "group" or something. The inability of an audience is not my concern, I expressed an idea in a controvesial enough way and enough humor to spark intelligence. The motivation should come from within and not hide from the shadows.
I've also learned from being a trashman that even the lowliest deserves my attentionn and an answer. The industry faulters.
Fear not... I know what I want, I know what is good,... I seek information honestly, but not without frustration. Getting people together is not my problem.
I guess by the way you speak of this community your are their leader or self appointed spokesman? I thought if they had something to offer they'd add it, rahter than you speak for them. Maybe they don't like sound issues, maybe they have no experience ... perhaps it is the way I attack the industry and can't be bought. I know you know I'm not intimidated...
I am curious also about the use of the expression you used, it is neither subtle nor calm, and very dated. I guess the fact that you used it was a retro thing and consquently very funny, or have we developed that level of humor here yet?
PS let's get back to sound thing and tell me why with my money my choice is inferior. How about the specs, please.
Pappy
Whew!! "too many notes" ...'Amadeus'
I just noticed a member of this "community" posting in Tom?s concerning the Audigy2?. Which raises the question in my mind?.if Power DVD is capable of pushing DTS-ES and the Audigy2 can put out 6.1, as our member tells us, would this allow a DTS-ES experience using Powerdvd4 and Audigy2 on a PC platform? (Say it's good to be part of a community where we have "authorities" that are freely providing their answers for the greater good, to the many. How unselfish they be to be busily visiting so many sites and bestowing their knowledge.)
Something tells me this would not work,... either because the input decoding (source sound) required by the card and of course due to the absence of helpful people telling me this would work. Most conversations are, "? which is better?", or,?" why won?t this feature work?" with " ?try his or that? responses?". Then there are the OZ like creatures of (little ?a?) ? technical authority? that seem to revel in belittling others, with their glad hand minions of apple polishers and back patters at the ready.
The veneer here is not as resilient or undetectable as y?all may think. People are posing as "helpfuls" others are just plain ?sharks? hoping to grab a bite. A good experience instills one with a feeling of well being no matter who or what they are. As a consumer, I want this, but of late have had terrible experiences with web responses from OEM?s and technical resources. It seems they become stymied when they are hiding something or hope that you don't ask. I do get a few responses from group sites with irrelevant suggestions by brand name loyalists.
Don?t let anyone tell you that you ?shouldn?t? or ?can?t? just because they?re preying or your desire to socialize, fit in and feel a part of the community.
Tech
To recap: I am looking for DTS-ES on PC platform, quality issues apart since:
Subjective:
True [audio] experts are very helpful and understand the common persons? issues. (OEM?s patrol common sites and pose as ?regulars? and ?well wishers? , and are not always readily discernible.)
Perceptive:
The fact that there are only half hearted offerings out there does not mean one standard is better than the other (DD-EX vs DTS-ES)
Audio quality measurements are "psychoacoustic" and "technical",
Technical:
CD recording techniques are not high quality to begin with
Some real experts on the web prescribe upgrading DVD players so that their audio (DAC) - digital to analogue converter is more than 96kHz/24bit. (Most people have and will continue to buy without a ?clue?, trusting in the fact they "might have the latest and greatest". OEM?s PR and advertising, disinformation and subterfuge, imply only that the ?fancy plastic houses have the best components for the best sound?, knowing full well that the average Joe relies on some casual acquaintance or beer buddy for his technical information or brand loyalty. SACD is not the most prevalent format and cost is also higher (duh).
Cables have also been sited as an extreme quality issue.
Home theaters in a box at around $500-600 (Kanadian) a pop, spec at 94khz/24bit (the ones they bother to detail the specs for). Furtherly, on this point, the DVD players sampled from random at Future shop, a ?mass appeal? type facility, don?t even bother to spec the DAC for DVD players. For that matter they don?t bother to tell you if it?s DTS-ES, I guess it?s the OEM/reseller implication of things again. Have you visited those sites that offer 'more info' or 'technical specifications' that have the most insane categories? Eg. 120 volts a/c (big duh), or how about the big check mark or "yes" they put in the catagory of "4 speaker support" for 5.1 speakers or for sound cards that are 5.1 and above.
Have you seen the home theater systems that say the are 6.1 "ready", and this means what? To me if they aren?t including the 6th satellite speaker, it sounds dubious at best and is highly suspect.
Whoever was taking issue with my desire to have DTS-ES on a sound card along with the DD-EX that is already on the sound cards, would you be able to tell me what your audio equipment is and how it?s specifications relate to a PC setup. If you had the Psycho acoustic measurements that?d be great, but I am sure if you did look at the specs you perused only the ?technical measurements? and had to find a match between cost and features/quality.
It is very, very "buyer be ware" ? and now "be aware." Don?t single source your information no matter how good a friend your getting your news and tech info from. No one person can possibly know it all, even knowing a very small bit of ?it? is a near impossible task. Even if someone does know it all and is also your friend, how long can they remain on top of anything. Once a mistake is made or they can?t keep you up to date, will you be bias when you hear something new? America trust in yourself? a team is made of individuals contributing together not following each other tales (tails) (nerd pun). There will always be something better, and upgrading is becoming as ?sure? as taxes are.
It would appear that a lot of people have extremely strong biases just as if you bought a Ford and found out a Chrysler comes out with something technologically superior. Would your pride let you support it?? of course not. So do your own homework and trust in your own decisions, know your information and buy knowing that it is not the very best, or could not possibly be for very long, and that you are not the very best but part of a team that is. Make your dollar count and know that what you buy now can be gotten for less than half the cost 6 months down the road.
I?m not upgrading tell they make something worthwhile.
"Yes" ..it?s real
Pappy baabaa
Text
I just noticed a member of this "community" posting in Tom?s concerning the Audigy2?. Which raises the question in my mind?.if Power DVD is capable of pushing DTS-ES and the Audigy2 can put out 6.1, as our member tells us, would this allow a DTS-ES experience using Powerdvd4 and Audigy2 on a PC platform? (Say it's good to be part of a community where we have "authorities" that are freely providing their answers for the greater good, to the many. How unselfish they be to be busily visiting so many sites and bestowing their knowledge.)
Something tells me this would not work,... either because the input decoding (source sound) required by the card and of course due to the absence of helpful people telling me this would work. Most conversations are, "? which is better?", or,?" why won?t this feature work?" with " ?try his or that? responses?". Then there are the OZ like creatures of (little ?a?) ? technical authority? that seem to revel in belittling others, with their glad hand minions of apple polishers and back patters at the ready.
The veneer here is not as resilient or undetectable as y?all may think. People are posing as "helpfuls" others are just plain ?sharks? hoping to grab a bite. A good experience instills one with a feeling of well being no matter who or what they are. As a consumer, I want this, but of late have had terrible experiences with web responses from OEM?s and technical resources. It seems they become stymied when they are hiding something or hope that you don't ask. I do get a few responses from group sites with irrelevant suggestions by brand name loyalists.
Don?t let anyone tell you that you ?shouldn?t? or ?can?t? just because they?re preying or your desire to socialize, fit in and feel a part of the community.
Tech
To recap: I am looking for DTS-ES on PC platform, quality issues apart since:
Subjective:
True [audio] experts are very helpful and understand the common persons? issues. (OEM?s patrol common sites and pose as ?regulars? and ?well wishers? , and are not always readily discernible.)
Perceptive:
The fact that there are only half hearted offerings out there does not mean one standard is better than the other (DD-EX vs DTS-ES)
Audio quality measurements are "psychoacoustic" and "technical",
Technical:
CD recording techniques are not high quality to begin with
Some real experts on the web prescribe upgrading DVD players so that their audio (DAC) - digital to analogue converter is more than 96kHz/24bit. (Most people have and will continue to buy without a ?clue?, trusting in the fact they "might have the latest and greatest". OEM?s PR and advertising, disinformation and subterfuge, imply only that the ?fancy plastic houses have the best components for the best sound?, knowing full well that the average Joe relies on some casual acquaintance or beer buddy for his technical information or brand loyalty. SACD is not the most prevalent format and cost is also higher (duh).
Cables have also been sited as an extreme quality issue.
Home theaters in a box at around $500-600 (Kanadian) a pop, spec at 94khz/24bit (the ones they bother to detail the specs for). Furtherly, on this point, the DVD players sampled from random at Future shop, a ?mass appeal? type facility, don?t even bother to spec the DAC for DVD players. For that matter they don?t bother to tell you if it?s DTS-ES, I guess it?s the OEM/reseller implication of things again. Have you visited those sites that offer 'more info' or 'technical specifications' that have the most insane categories? Eg. 120 volts a/c (big duh), or how about the big check mark or "yes" they put in the catagory of "4 speaker support" for 5.1 speakers or for sound cards that are 5.1 and above.
Have you seen the home theater systems that say the are 6.1 "ready", and this means what? To me if they aren?t including the 6th satellite speaker, it sounds dubious at best and is highly suspect.
Whoever was taking issue with my desire to have DTS-ES on a sound card along with the DD-EX that is already on the sound cards, would you be able to tell me what your audio equipment is and how it?s specifications relate to a PC setup. If you had the Psycho acoustic measurements that?d be great, but I am sure if you did look at the specs you perused only the ?technical measurements? and had to find a match between cost and features/quality.
It is very, very "buyer be ware" ? and now "be aware." Don?t single source your information no matter how good a friend your getting your news and tech info from. No one person can possibly know it all, even knowing a very small bit of ?it? is a near impossible task. Even if someone does know it all and is also your friend, how long can they remain on top of anything. Once a mistake is made or they can?t keep you up to date, will you be bias when you hear something new? America trust in yourself? a team is made of individuals contributing together not following each other tales (tails) (nerd pun). There will always be something better, and upgrading is becoming as ?sure? as taxes are.
It would appear that a lot of people have extremely strong biases just as if you bought a Ford and found out a Chrysler comes out with something technologically superior. Would your pride let you support it?? of course not. So do your own homework and trust in your own decisions, know your information and buy knowing that it is not the very best, or could not possibly be for very long, and that you are not the very best but part of a team that is. Make your dollar count and know that what you buy now can be gotten for less than half the cost 6 months down the road.
I?m not upgrading tell they make something worthwhile.
"Yes" ..it?s real
Pappy baabaa
Text
Anyone else think that 6.1, and even 5.1, is pretty pointless on a PC? [ah..I see Pariah thinks the same] Seriously, most people have their PC speakers pretty close together...much closer than they would a home theater system. On a HT system you generally have fairly large gaps between the front and rear speakers that do benefit front front and rear center channels (better localization and panning). But on a PC desk? No point, IMO.
That said, I do own a 5.1 set-up for my PC, but I have yet to see any differences from my previous 4.1 set-up.
That said, I do own a 5.1 set-up for my PC, but I have yet to see any differences from my previous 4.1 set-up.
Not sure if I put it in this thread or not ...
Using a series of channel splitters and 'y' cables I have my PC around the corner from the tv. A set of 5.1 speakers (all mixmatched) but adjusted to fit the spacing and power/quality issues at the PC.
Also running from the PC to the living room (too poor for a family room) are cables (not hidden yet) that run to the tv and two 12.5 rms speakers beside the tv for the center sound, also the cables run to acs56 and z560 4.1 rigs set at different hieghts and (nsew) positions for the 'fit'.
I can not afford a separate home theater and separate homw audio setup, nor the space. But I like it like this (not the being poor business, though). I have noticed a lot of difference when running both acs56 and z560 together. So it fits all on the cheap, but now my dvd's are coming with DD-EX and DTS-ES, which I buy instead of having cable, and I'd like to play them that way.
So this explained, are there any other criticisms to - what I know I'd like to hear and what should be avalable? I am sure someone will find another really technical reason why I should not be doing this instead of thinking, "hey why don't they include DTS-ES with the DD-EX".
Hey! I may hold myself up as a target, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.
Ricadolini
Using a series of channel splitters and 'y' cables I have my PC around the corner from the tv. A set of 5.1 speakers (all mixmatched) but adjusted to fit the spacing and power/quality issues at the PC.
Also running from the PC to the living room (too poor for a family room) are cables (not hidden yet) that run to the tv and two 12.5 rms speakers beside the tv for the center sound, also the cables run to acs56 and z560 4.1 rigs set at different hieghts and (nsew) positions for the 'fit'.
I can not afford a separate home theater and separate homw audio setup, nor the space. But I like it like this (not the being poor business, though). I have noticed a lot of difference when running both acs56 and z560 together. So it fits all on the cheap, but now my dvd's are coming with DD-EX and DTS-ES, which I buy instead of having cable, and I'd like to play them that way.
So this explained, are there any other criticisms to - what I know I'd like to hear and what should be avalable? I am sure someone will find another really technical reason why I should not be doing this instead of thinking, "hey why don't they include DTS-ES with the DD-EX".
Hey! I may hold myself up as a target, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.
Ricadolini
Yeah, I put it all in the previous notes of this thread.. but like me, we usually just check the latest updates forgetting everything in the string. And if you're posting in other 'harbors', there might be a tendency to loose track of what was said where.
In case this is not the case here and out of boredom there is a curiosity to badger....
I could give a flying hoot about sound about 2 tears ago... then one night playing the HellFire exp, I added a set of speakers to the old creative card. After about 30 minutes I had to turn on the lights. Thinking there must be some subliminal 'noise' I tried it several times.. everytime I would get really 'keyed'. So there was a difference when hearing the same sound from different directions.
When I first got my 5.1 [sound] card I had a bunch of mixmatched speakers, none of them all too good. They all had volume controls some with bass and treble. So I experiemented with placement and volume/tone. If someone tells me that they can not hear a difference between a 4.1 and 5.1 rig, then perhaps they have too much faith in business, expecting everything to be setup perfectly straight form the shop just to suit them.
This is one of the things I'd petition for from all manufacturers of sound cards and speakers, (except none of the blimey blokes bother to respond), separate volume and tonal adjustments on each speaker (among the many ideas forwarded to various OEM's). Oh I know, I know, they would, and the subservient portion of customers, would tell you that it would be a way too expensive.... really? That wholesale electronics to do this are so dear (sorry that's sarcasm for the humor/rhetorically impaired). Oh!, the design process, the engineering process, the 'tooling' costs... yeah, whatever. They're limp, really limp.
I prefer to have, as a good many sets have, emphasis on the center channel and the suppport coming from the 'wings'. The set ups I have for the kids are all; slight emphasis on the center channel, (depending on the individual speaker set quality) less on the front left right and a lot les on the rear left right.
Experimentation is the the key for me.
Anyway for lack of technical quality, I thank you and bid you well,
Ricco
In case this is not the case here and out of boredom there is a curiosity to badger....
I could give a flying hoot about sound about 2 tears ago... then one night playing the HellFire exp, I added a set of speakers to the old creative card. After about 30 minutes I had to turn on the lights. Thinking there must be some subliminal 'noise' I tried it several times.. everytime I would get really 'keyed'. So there was a difference when hearing the same sound from different directions.
When I first got my 5.1 [sound] card I had a bunch of mixmatched speakers, none of them all too good. They all had volume controls some with bass and treble. So I experiemented with placement and volume/tone. If someone tells me that they can not hear a difference between a 4.1 and 5.1 rig, then perhaps they have too much faith in business, expecting everything to be setup perfectly straight form the shop just to suit them.
This is one of the things I'd petition for from all manufacturers of sound cards and speakers, (except none of the blimey blokes bother to respond), separate volume and tonal adjustments on each speaker (among the many ideas forwarded to various OEM's). Oh I know, I know, they would, and the subservient portion of customers, would tell you that it would be a way too expensive.... really? That wholesale electronics to do this are so dear (sorry that's sarcasm for the humor/rhetorically impaired). Oh!, the design process, the engineering process, the 'tooling' costs... yeah, whatever. They're limp, really limp.
I prefer to have, as a good many sets have, emphasis on the center channel and the suppport coming from the 'wings'. The set ups I have for the kids are all; slight emphasis on the center channel, (depending on the individual speaker set quality) less on the front left right and a lot les on the rear left right.
Experimentation is the the key for me.
Anyway for lack of technical quality, I thank you and bid you well,
Ricco
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