Attn: Any auto mechanics or car whizzes here? Need help!

[Dolemite69]

I just took my 1990 honda prelude si into the shop (EconoLube) to get some work done. They were to replace the two front CV Joints, change transmission fluid, and change a couple belts under the hood. The reason for changing the belts is that there was a fairly loud squeaking noise coming from under the hood especially when i was in idle. This was gonna be $600....

So we agree and tell them to go ahead... One of the guys calls back in a couple hours and says when they were changing / taking off the belts, the "Harmonic Balance broke loose and fell to the floor." He goes on and on about what it is, what it's connected to, and then tells me it's gonna be an extra $250 for parts/labor to fix this. Does anyone know if this sounds legit?!? Damn, pretty soon it's not gonna be worth the cost of fixing! I am so fustrated, the total will now be over $900... Any suggestions??

 

[308nato]

The harmonic balancer does not fall to the floor unless it was dropped during removal (or they broke the end of the crankshaft off).

You are about to be f-d over.

 

[blahblah99]

I'm not sure what that harmonic balancer thingy that he's talking about, but on all hondas there is a little metal rectangular key that lines up the crankshaft pulley to the crank itself. It's about 4mmx15mm rectangular sized. Its not suppose to be stuck to the crankshaft... in fact, it just sits on the crankshaft and the pulley keeps it in place and will fall out if they remove the pulley.

But since your only changing belts, I see no reason to pull off that crank pulley.

Changing belts only requires loosing up the tension pulleys, removing the belts, replacing it, and tightening back up the pulley. It has nothing to do with the harmonic balancer bs they are giving you unless they accidently/intentionally broke it.

Where's it connected to? What does it do?

I'm sorry to say, but $600 for cv joints, transmission fluid, and belts is a BIG RIP! If you are mechanically inclined, do the fluid change and belt change yourself.

 

[Wingznut]

<--- EX-mechanic (Jeep/Dodge).

I'm not sure about the Prelude, so I'll just speak "in general".

The balancer is basically the crankshaft pully. It's possible that when they pulled off the belt, the balancer came apart.

Whether or not that's common with Prelude's... I have no idea. But it is possible.

As for the price, yes it's high. But it sounds about the same as you'd be charged anywhere else.

 

[iamwiz82]

Wingznut, YPM

 

[Kadarin]

I am not specifically familiar with Honda engines, but I can give general background: A harmonic balancer is a device that's attached (bolted) to the front end of a crankshaft, and its purpose is to dampen harmonics from the rotating assembly of pistons, crankshaft, flywheel (flexplate), to prevent those forces from tearing apart the engine. Typically, it needs to be fastened securely to the crankshaft so that it can transfer those forces to whatever dampening mechanism it uses (rubber, viscous fluid, whatever). That this device would "fall off" during a belt replacement sounds ridiculous. Even if it did, even if the design of the engine allows for this as a possbile hazard, it sounds like something that would be their fault. If it were something that was possible, they should have warned you as to that possibility.

My opinion: As 308nato says, "You are about to be f-d over. "

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

Dude, tell them, that you know your stuff and that harmonic balancers just don't fall off, they have to be removed with some force. Also if this is a chain of stores, call up the corporate offices and raise hell. I did this when Just Breaks(lol) tried to charged my gf $1000 to replace a rotor resurface anotherone, and put new shoes and pads on it. I went ape sh*t on them, and had the vehicle taken to another shop that did the work for $200.

 

[Dolemite69]

Thanks guys... I'm feelin kind of sick about this right now. Is there any recourse I may have on this? Is there anyway to say, "look, i know you're lyin and i ain't payin" maybe in a more professional manner? Or do i have to pay for the 'extra' work now?

 

[desertdweller]

I was a Honda Tech at a dealership about 6 years ago. If I remember correctly, thats a big IF, those engines don't
have a harmonic balancer. All that is at the end of the crank is the pulley, and they don't just break and fall off.
I know the Accord engines used a counter-balance shaft to balance the engine, and I think the prelude engine is the same.

Make them show it all to you and if you still think they are trying to rip you off, take the part and tell them you're going
to go talk to the dealer to get thier opinion.


DD

 

[RayH]

Not sure about Hondas but on Mitsubishis the harmonic balancer is two pieces with the outer ring of the pulley bonded to the inner part by a layer of damping material. The damping material deteriorates over time causing the two pieces to separate. On my car it happened at around 125,000 miles and the part was around $100. Depending on what it's connected to, you could end up losing your power steering and water pump if it separates while driving. Worse case scenario is the separation causes to the attached belts to jump and wrap around your timing belt and bending your valves it you've got an interference engine.

I'm not sure if it's the type of work I'd trust an EconoLube to do but the price doesn't sound totally unreasonable. Also it's your right to ask the mechanic to see the broken parts if you want. As long as they're not switching it on you at least you can get an idea of what broke.

 

They used the wrong type of puller and destroyed it through negligence.
Call your MVD immediately and file a complaint.

Harmonic balancers don't just "Fall Apart".

 

[Wingznut]

Originally posted by: Roger
They used the wrong type of puller and destroyed it through negligence.
Call your MVD immediately and file a complaint.

Harmonic balancers don't just "Fall Apart".

They wouldn't need to use a puller to change the belts. (Unless I'm missing something here.)

Roger... In all the years, you've never seen the two parts of a balancer coming apart? I sure have.

Now, if you were to say that they probably broke the balancer by using it as a point of leverage (when using a prybar to put tension on the belt), I'd could certainly see that happening.

 

[Ornery]

Man, can you get some pictures of that mess? This is SO hard to believe! Oh, get a picture of the goon doing the work too!

Edit: Here's a picture of the High Tech Honda, Harmonic Balancer in question. Damn! hundreds of dollars to replace CV joints, which are the "high tech" equivilent of the $10.00 U-joints used on the rugged old "low tech" cars. A flimsy, expensive, "high tech" Harmonic Balancer replaces the old fashioned, indestructable, cast iron ones... I sometimes wonder where the term "econobox" comes from!

 

[blahblah99]

well now that I know what you guys are talking about (harmonic balancer, why the hell won't they just call it the crankshaft pulley), I can shed a little more light on that...


In order to remove that pulley (harmonic balancer bs), you will need to use an impact wrench or a a breaker bar to remove the bolt that holds it to the crank. In either case, it requires a LOT of force, usually more than 150ft-lbs. Changing out your belts does not require the removal of that pulley. You simply loosen the tensioner bolts and slip off the belts.

Also, the pulley doesn't break or dent that easily. It's a hardened piece of metal. The bolt doesn't break that easily either. The only thing I can think of is they lost the little rectangular key to hold the pulley to the crank (all hondas have this key) when removing the pulley. But then again, they shouldn't be needing to remove the pulley unless they are doing the timing belt or water pump.

I conclude that they are FULL OF SH!T.

 

[Vette73]

Call and tell them to stop work and have the car towed to another place.

I am a mechanic and the prices they gave you are HIGH, and thats for a Honda. For the Trans I am correct it is only a Drain and refill, no filter like a GM car or truck right? All the Honda Trans I have done are just drain the fluid out and put some in, easier than a oil change.

Have it towed to a INDEPENDENT shop. These national shops are mostly rip-off shops. And no matter what any shop says, if it cost more than $150 and they are not your regualar mechanic, get a second look by somebody else.

Best thing to do is ask people you know who does there work. 9 time out of 10 it will be a Independent shop or the dealer.
I don't advertise, and I have all the work I need just by word of mouth, as I am honest and straight forward with anybody I do work for.


EDIT....
I just saw you are in NC, where? If Wilmington I may be able to help.

 

[ThisIsMatt]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975
Call and tell them to stop work and have the car towed to another place.

I am a mechanic and the prices they gave you are HIGH, and thats for a Honda. For the Trans I am correct it is only a Drain and refill, no filter like a GM car or truck right? All the Honda Trans I have done are just drain the fluid out and put some in, easier than a oil change.

Have it towed to a INDEPENDENT shop. These national shops are mostly rip-off shops. And no matter what any shop says, if it cost more than $150 and they are not your regualar mechanic, get a second look by somebody else.

Best thing to do is ask people you know who does there work. 9 time out of 10 it will be a Independent shop or the dealer.
I don't advertise, and I have all the work I need just by word of mouth, as I am honest and straight forward with anybody I do work for.


EDIT....
I just saw you are in NC, where? If Wilmington I may be able to help.

Correct, just drain and refill. I just did it to mine about two weeks ago. Totally easy except you need a very long funnel to fill the tranny and the drain bolt was insanely tight. Total cost was ~$16.50 for 3 quarts of honda genuine ATF and a replacement drain bolt washer...

 

[Tominator]

They were to replace the two front CV Joints,

Typically there are four CV joints. Are they going to replace one axle? Both? Most shops use a rebuilt axle and I always recommend both sides get done at the same time. The price to you would be about $150 each. Plus the labor and that could easily reach the $175 mark depending on the car.

That's $475. An auto transmission 'flush n fill' runs $50 most places so we are up to $525.

$75 is not outreageous for belts installed, but I do my own.

Now we here from desertdweller is fairly certain the motor in question has no harmonic balancer. If it does and they did drop it, my bet is they had it on a hoist and possibly dropped it from some height. That could have bent it or damaged it. I'm wondering why they took it off to replace the belts.

Get yourself a Haines or Chiltons repair manual and use it for a reference on what needs taken off to do the job. This does sound fishy but don't go off the deep end or you might not get the cooperation you need. Find out the facts first.

 

[Spoooon]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975
Call and tell them to stop work and have the car towed to another place.

I am a mechanic and the prices they gave you are HIGH, and thats for a Honda. For the Trans I am correct it is only a Drain and refill, no filter like a GM car or truck right? All the Honda Trans I have done are just drain the fluid out and put some in, easier than a oil change.

Have it towed to a INDEPENDENT shop. These national shops are mostly rip-off shops. And no matter what any shop says, if it cost more than $150 and they are not your regualar mechanic, get a second look by somebody else.

Best thing to do is ask people you know who does there work. 9 time out of 10 it will be a Independent shop or the dealer.
I don't advertise, and I have all the work I need just by word of mouth, as I am honest and straight forward with anybody I do work for.


EDIT....
I just saw you are in NC, where? If Wilmington I may be able to help.

Marlin, I think you need to move to Texas so that you can work on my car.

 

[Dolemite69]

EDIT....
I just saw you are in NC, where? If Wilmington I may be able to help.

I'm living in Charleston, SC (moved here in March), but i was doing the work in Charlotte, cause that's where i'm from, my family is...

Here is a couple pictures of the part that needed to be replaced:

pic 1

pic 2

...it seems legit what happened, and what they had to do... Although i agree, the amount charged was f'n exorbitant...
as far as the tranny fluid change, they said they don't put in a new filter, but they don't just "drain and fill" either... they hook it up to a machine that 'backwashes' the entire system and flushes everything out...

thanks for all the input guys!

 

[Ornery]

Ouch! Sorry to hear about that! Thanks for the pics and update, though.

Happy motoring from here on out!

 

[JC]

So apparently the squeaking was the outer ring moving on the hub of the damper.....elastomer failure. For $250, I guess that's a new Honda damper, not a boneyard used one?

JC

 

[Thegonagle]

It's OK that they didn't change the transmission fluid filter, since there isn't one on that car.

 

[Evadman]

Originally posted by: Garfang
It's OK that they didn't change the transmission fluid filter, since there isn't one on that car.

A man who knows honda's

I have only seen one balancer fail like that. And it sucks. Your lucky it actually stayed together for so long.

The pricing seems about right for everything, including the balancer. CV joints must be rebuilt, so I assume the mechanic is getting either new or rebuilt parts. Either or would be good. The ones for my S-10 were $125 each after core. ( $210 without. I know because I grenaded both ) A CV joint is not even close to a $15 part. you are thinking of a U Joint, as a driveshaft or a solid front axle would have.

Labor = suck. It would easily be a good chunk of that price. They are not easy to change. they are not overcharging you at all. That is actually very cheap.

The balancer is no easy task either. It is not fun to remove when the outer hub seperates. When I replaced the one on my suzuki, I actually ended up parking my truck on the engine and using a breaker bar with a 4' piece of pipe. Not even close to easy. Of course, a honda's is much smaller and a little easyer, but still not easy by any streach.

Unfortunately, I do not have a book list for pricing any more. Do this: Call up some other shops and say you need 2 new half shafts, a new balancer, and a flush and fill. I can pretty much guarantee that it will be more.

 

[roncarter]

sounds like your getting screwed man.. stick to what you agreed to