Attention Mid-Range System Builders - Updated 08/01/2015

[mfenn]

New update, minor changes to reflect price increases/decreases and OOS items.

 

[LOL_Wut_Axel]

That's the thing, "once bitten, twice shy". Or in this case, "ten times bitten, ten times shy". We don't really know what bugs are fixed and what remain out there on any given device. Like I said, it's probably fine, but I'm trying to go with low-risk components here for broad appeal.



Why? "Upgrading to Crossfire/SLI" is rarely a good idea for people with typical upgrade cycles (2-3 years). Those sorts of people are the ones most likely to be buying a $1000 machine.

These sort of people are the ones looking to maximize their performance/dollar, hence the appeal of CF/SLI. You've also forgotten about the fact that price/performance for video cards has decreased this year, especially with higher-end cards. In two-three years you'll probably be able to get the HD 7850 replacement for $150-180 or so, which isn't that much of a difference, especially since you'll be able to find 7850s cheap.

And the bugs that have been fixed are widely available for you to view them, and SandForce as of now is as low-risk as all the others. You're simply letting your personal feelings get in the way of recommending a component.

 

[T_Yamamoto]

Honestly, I don't care about ssds. As long as its close to $1/per gig

 

[mfenn]

These sort of people are the ones looking to maximize their performance/dollar, hence the appeal of CF/SLI. You've also forgotten about the fact that price/performance for video cards has decreased this year, especially with higher-end cards. In two-three years you'll probably be able to get the HD 7850 replacement for $150-180 or so, which isn't that much of a difference, especially since you'll be able to find 7850s cheap.

Huh? You're forgetting to factor in the cost of a SLI-capable mobo and bigger power supply. $220-250 for a 7850 two years from now doesn't seem like a particularly good deal to me. Not to mention the usual SLI nonsense.

And the bugs that have been fixed are widely available for you to view them, and SandForce as of now is as low-risk as all the others. You're simply letting your personal feelings get in the way of recommending a component.

"Like I said, it's probably fine, but I'm trying to go with low-risk components here for broad appeal."

"It is however a very high performance controller if you're willing to accept a little extra risk."

So, we're agreed?

 

[dascoyne]

I found the i5 2500k for $180 ... oops, it's in-store pickup only at Micro Center.

 

[LOL_Wut_Axel]

Huh? You're forgetting to factor in the cost of a SLI-capable mobo and bigger power supply. $220-250 for a 7850 two years from now doesn't seem like a particularly good deal to me. Not to mention the usual SLI nonsense.



"Like I said, it's probably fine, but I'm trying to go with low-risk components here for broad appeal."

"It is however a very high performance controller if you're willing to accept a little extra risk."

So, we're agreed?

I already factored that in, in my previous reply. ASRock Extreme3 Gen3 is $122 and has CF/SLI support. And the SanDisk Extreme 120GB is faster and cheaper than the Crucial m4 128GB, offsetting the cost difference of the motherboard.

And the HD 7850 won't be $220-250 in two years. Like I told you, and like everyone that follows graphics cards pricing knows, price on graphics cards goes down as time passes, manufacturing costs are lowered, and volume goes up. The HD 6870 started at $240 and it's priced at $160 now.

And why would you need a bigger power supply, anyway? Do you actually think you need an overkill 850W or higher unit for powering two Radeon HD 7850s, graphics cards that consume a comparable amount of power to the HD 6850? The HD 7850 only requires a single PCIe power connector. And a single 7850 runs fine, even overclocked and overvolted, with a good quality 450W PSU. Two will run fine, with headroom to spare, on a 650W unit, which is what you linked to.

And there's no "extra risk" now going for SandForce, unless you find that "extra risk" to be your own unfounded personal fears. Run the latest firmware and you'll be just fine.

 

[mfenn]

I already factored that in, in my previous reply. ASRock Extreme3 Gen3 is $122 and has CF/SLI support. And the SanDisk Extreme 120GB is faster and cheaper than the Crucial m4 128GB, offsetting the cost difference of the motherboard.

And the HD 7850 won't be $220-250 in two years. Like I told you, and like everyone that follows graphics cards pricing knows, price on graphics cards goes down as time passes, manufacturing costs are lowered, and volume goes up. The HD 6870 started at $240 and it's priced at $160 now.

And why would you need a bigger power supply, anyway? Do you actually think you need an overkill 850W or higher unit for powering two Radeon HD 7850s, graphics cards that consume a comparable amount of power to the HD 6850? The HD 7850 only requires a single PCIe power connector. And a single 7850 runs fine, even overclocked and overvolted, with a good quality 450W PSU. Two will run fine, with headroom to spare, on a 650W unit, which is what you linked to.

All fair points. However, do you think that Moore's law will not continue? In 2-3 years we should have ~$250 GPUs will 4 times as many transistors as a 7850. Transistor count roughly correlates to performance, so a single card of that day should be more than twice as fast as Crossfired 7850s. Then you have to factor in he increasing VRAM requirements of newer games. 2GB seems like a lot now, but it'll probably be severely limiting 3 years from now. And of course, while Crossfire is a lot better than it used to be, there are still issues of potential negative scaling, microstutter (especially in the mid-range), and of course double the power, heat, and noise.

And there's no "extra risk" now going for SandForce, unless you find that "extra risk" to be your own unfounded personal fears. Run the latest firmware and you'll be just fine.

You must take past performance into account when doing risk modeling. There is no doubt that Sandforce has had more issues in the past than the Samsung or Marvell based drives. In fact, there are still plenty of bugs to be found in the Sandforce firmware, why else would Intel spend millions of dollars to develop their own firmware completely from scratch for the 520 drives?

 

[T_Yamamoto]

mfenn and axel are fighting.. lawlz

 

[mfenn]

mfenn and axel are fighting.. lawlz

I don't think I would call this "fighting". More like "having an intelligent debate".

 

[T_Yamamoto]

I don't think I would call this "fighting". More like "having an intelligent debate".

ITS FIGHT

bump

 

[Madmick]

Why do you include both an SSD and HDD in this build, Mfenn?

 

[T_Yamamoto]

because SSDs for OS and programs and HDD for slow data.....

(its standard)

 

[lehtv]

SSD's are fast but expensive per gigabyte, HDD's are not so fast but affordable per gigabyte. So you use a small 64gig or 128gig SSD for the operating system, programs and (some) games, and put all the media files etc. on a big storage hard disk.

If you have an external hard disk that's big enough for all your storage needs, you don't need an internal HDD. If you need a lot of space but don't want to pay too much, it's fine to go with 5400RPM internal hard drives when your SSD is doing most of the number crunching.

 

[Madmick]

Questions on towers:

1) I noticed all the HAF Cooler Master towers have at least four 5.25" external drive bays. What's the advantage of this if you aren't servicing a server using RAID? What else would you put in there besides a Blu-Ray/DVD-ROM/CD-ROM?

2) Practically, what's the most expansion slots even a high-end gaming system would use? I checked the Wiki article, and obviously you want a video card, sound card, SSD...what else? A TV Tuner Card would be a cool luxury, but otherwise, I see nothing else on their list that doesn't appear to be outdated and pre-included on contemporary Mobos.

3) Is USB 3.0 considered a staple yet?

4) Assuming quality is otherwise equal, does a bigger fan usually mean it will have a longer life?

5) How useful is a side air duct?

6) What other key features do you look for in a tower?

 

[Madmick]

Questions on Coolers:

1) What's the difference between Bearing Types? What's the best? What's the most durable for the best value? What should be avoided? Newegg lists 17 different kinds.

2) I notice these builds didn't include a separate heatsink/fan; I presume because I also noticed that CPUs, GPUs, and Towers all come with their own fans, now. Are coolers like the Cooler Master Hyper 212 a replacement or an addition to the coolers pre-included with CPU's like the Sandy Bridge line? I assume they allow for greater overclocking?

 

[TheStu]

Questions on towers:

1) I noticed all the HAF Cooler Master towers have at least four 5.25" external drive bays. What's the advantage of this if you aren't servicing a server using RAID? What else would you put in there besides a Blu-Ray/DVD-ROM/CD-ROM?

2) Practically, what's the most expansion slots even a high-end gaming system would use? I checked the Wiki article, and obviously you want a video card, sound card, SSD...what else? A TV Tuner Card would be a cool luxury, but otherwise, I see nothing else on their list that doesn't appear to be outdated and pre-included on contemporary Mobos.

3) Is USB 3.0 considered a staple yet?

4) Assuming quality is otherwise equal, does a bigger fan usually mean it will have a longer life?

5) How useful is a side air duct?

6) What other key features do you look for in a tower?

1: I don't even have an optical drive in my tower, and it has a total of 9 5.25" bays. The advantage is that you can get a 3-4 cage that occupies 3 optical bays but nets you 4 hard drive bays. It is entirely self contained with a cooling fan on the front, runs you about $20.

2: If you are talking the average high end gaming system, with dual 2slot GPUs, maybe a sound card, and maybe an aftermarket NIC... 6-7 slots. I use 2 on my tower, I just have the GPU. Onboard sound is more than sufficient, and the SSD doesn't go into the expansion area (unless you are spending big bucks on a PCIe one.)

3: Most new cases and motherboards have it, certainly intel motherboards. And with Ivy Bridge, all intel mobos should have it.

4: no answer

5: no answer, though I don't use it.

6: I personally look for a reasonable amount of working and cabling space, and a clean external design. No side windows, and a minimum of bling and flashiness.

 

[mfenn]

Why do you include both an SSD and HDD in this build, Mfenn?

SSD's are fast but expensive per gigabyte, HDD's are not so fast but affordable per gigabyte. So you use a small 64gig or 128gig SSD for the operating system, programs and (some) games, and put all the media files etc. on a big storage hard disk.

If you have an external hard disk that's big enough for all your storage needs, you don't need an internal HDD. If you need a lot of space but don't want to pay too much, it's fine to go with 5400RPM internal hard drives when your SSD is doing most of the number crunching.

:thumbsup:

Questions on towers:

1) I noticed all the HAF Cooler Master towers have at least four 5.25" external drive bays. What's the advantage of this if you aren't servicing a server using RAID? What else would you put in there besides a Blu-Ray/DVD-ROM/CD-ROM?

2) Practically, what's the most expansion slots even a high-end gaming system would use? I checked the Wiki article, and obviously you want a video card, sound card, SSD...what else? A TV Tuner Card would be a cool luxury, but otherwise, I see nothing else on their list that doesn't appear to be outdated and pre-included on contemporary Mobos.

3) Is USB 3.0 considered a staple yet?

4) Assuming quality is otherwise equal, does a bigger fan usually mean it will have a longer life?

5) How useful is a side air duct?

6) What other key features do you look for in a tower?

1. There are various 5.25" devices like optical drives, fan controllers, sound card breakout boxes, and hot swap drive trays that use them. That being said, most of the bays do end up being unused.

2. Probably 5 (2 GPUs, 1 sound card) if you count dual-slot cards as two even though they only use a single PCIe slot.

3. Yes

4. Yes, but not because it's bigger. Slower-spinning fans last longer and a larger fan can move a given amount of air in fewer revolutions.

5. It can be useful if you're running SLI/Crossfire, but not terribly otherwise.

6. Mostly appearance, a sane HDD mounting system, and room to route cables behind the motherboard tray.

Questions on Coolers:

1) What's the difference between Bearing Types? What's the best? What's the most durable for the best value? What should be avoided? Newegg lists 17 different kinds.

2) I notice these builds didn't include a separate heatsink/fan; I presume because I also noticed that CPUs, GPUs, and Towers all come with their own fans, now. Are coolers like the Cooler Master Hyper 212 a replacement or an addition to the coolers pre-included with CPU's like the Sandy Bridge line? I assume they allow for greater overclocking?

1. More expensive bearings last longer and are quieter. Sleeve bearings are the low end, ball bearings the midrange, and more esoteric designs like fluid dynamic are the high end.

2. The only part that has an (easily) detachable cooler in a modern PC is the CPU. The Intel boxed CPUs do come with a cooler and cases come with some number of fans. You don't need to purchase any additional cooling for a functional build, but obviously a replacement CPU cooler like a Hyper 212+ is higher performance than what comes in the box.

 

[Madmick]

1: I don't even have an optical drive in my tower, and it has a total of 9 5.25" bays. The advantage is that you can get a 3-4 cage that occupies 3 optical bays but nets you 4 hard drive bays. It is entirely self contained with a cooling fan on the front, runs you about $20.

That sounds cool, but most of these towers come with more 3.5" bays than I would use, anyway. For instance, the "low end" Cooler Master HAF case (RC-912) from the general System Building sticky comes with four 5.25" bays and six 3.5" bays. As far as I know, the only thing you put in a 3.5" bay is an HDD, so it's already got room for six of those. Since 2TB internal HDD's typically provide the best bang-for-buck right now, that would be 12TB of space if one filled them up. In that context, I don't see any need for a 4-in-3 cage to add yet another 8TB. Heck, including the $25 for the cage, and even if you bought the much cheaper "Green Eco-Drives" (Samsung EcoGreen F4 2TB), 10 hard drives would run you $1325 and give you 20TB of memory. That seems excessive in all aspects.

Am I missing something?

:thumbsup:
1. There are various 5.25" devices like optical drives, fan controllers, sound card breakout boxes, and hot swap drive trays that use them. That being said, most of the bays do end up being unused.

I don't run a server, so I don't see why I would need to hot swap anything. What's the use of a "sound card breakout box"? And what is the benefit of adding a "fan controller"? How common is it to use those?

2. Probably 5 (2 GPUs, 1 sound card) if you count dual-slot cards as two even though they only use a single PCIe slot.

Wait, that's confusing: so if you Crossfired/SLI'd 2 dual-slot GPU's, does that occupy 2 or 4 expansion slots?

I'm guessing 4 or you wouldn't have said "5" slots. My guess is that even though they only plug into one PCIe slot they're so physically large that they prevent the next one over from being used?

6. Mostly appearance, a sane HDD mounting system, and room to route cables behind the motherboard tray.

What would be an example of an "insane" HDD mounting system one would want to avoid?

2. The only part that has an (easily) detachable cooler in a modern PC is the CPU. The Intel boxed CPUs do come with a cooler and cases come with some number of fans. You don't need to purchase any additional cooling for a functional build, but obviously a replacement CPU cooler like a Hyper 212+ is higher performance than what comes in the box.

What's the benefit of replacing the CPU cooler with something like the Hyper 212+? Does it allow greater overclocking, extend the CPU life...both?

 

[mfenn]

That sounds cool, but most of these towers come with more 3.5" bays than I would use, anyway. For instance, the "low end" Cooler Master HAF case (RC-912) from the general System Building sticky comes with four 5.25" bays and six 3.5" bays. As far as I know, the only thing you put in a 3.5" bay is an HDD, so it's already got room for six of those. Since 2TB internal HDD's typically provide the best bang-for-buck right now, that would be 12TB of space if one filled them up. In that context, I don't see any need for a 4-in-3 cage to add yet another 8TB. Heck, including the $25 for the cage, and even if you bought the much cheaper "Green Eco-Drives" (Samsung EcoGreen F4 2TB), 10 hard drives would run you $1325 and give you 20TB of memory. That seems excessive in all aspects.

Am I missing something?

You're way overthinking this. They come with that many bays because there physically enough room to put that many. If you don't ever see yourself using them, there is nothing saying that you can't buy a MicroATX case and board.

I don't run a server, so I don't see why I would need to hot swap anything. What's the use of a "sound card breakout box"? And what is the benefit of adding a "fan controller"? How common is it to use those?

Hot-swap drive bays can be nice if you carry drives around to transport big data or for backups or whatever. If you can't see a use for one, don't worry about it. Sound card breakout boxes are 5.25" devices that come with some high-end sound cards to provide more connectivity than can be accommodated on the rear panel. Fan controllers do exactly that, they control fans. Some people like to be able to tune the fan speeds manually for better cooling or lower noise.

Wait, that's confusing: so if you Crossfired/SLI'd 2 dual-slot GPU's, does that occupy 2 or 4 expansion slots?

I'm guessing 4 or you wouldn't have said "5" slots. My guess is that even though they only plug into one PCIe slot they're so physically large that they prevent the next one over from being used?

Yes, that is correct. Take a look at any $150+ card on Newegg and you'll see that it is dual-slot.

What would be an example of an "insane" HDD mounting system one would want to avoid?

Dustin over on the main site has a lot of case reviews where he goes into the HDD mounting systems in depth. An example is the Antec P182 which requires you to screw in 4 really long screws that are encased in silicone gommets for every drive and then insert the drive cage right in front of a fan so that the blades have a chance of nicking the SATA connector.

What's the benefit of replacing the CPU cooler with something like the Hyper 212+? Does it allow greater overclocking, extend the CPU life...both?

Higher overclocks and/or lower noise. Theoretically, running the CPU cooler will help extend its lifetime, but you're talking 15 years versus 20 years so it's not a big concern.

 

[Seattle51]

bump.....

 

[mfenn]

New build posted. Major changes this time include reducing the PSU to a jonnyguru recommended 550W (650W was really overkill for the 7850) and changing to a front-panel USB 3.0 capable case and Z77 mobo.

 

[lehtv]

Says OCZ ZS 450W in the op

 

[mnewsham]

Says OCZ ZS 450W in the op

Important thing is the link still leads to the correct 550w model.

 

[mfenn]

Says OCZ ZS 450W in the op

Good catch, fixed.

 

[T_Yamamoto]

Up it goes