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Attempted Terrorist Attack on Detroit bound Airplane tied to AQ

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They will probably rely on the tried and true techniques endorsed by interrogation professionals the world over. Not only are these techniques extremely effective but they also have the benefit of not being illegal.

Pretty great, huh?

These interrogation professionals are just pandering to the American public, because they know they will loose their jobs if the tell the truth about torture and interrogation. The real tried and true techniques have been in use since the beginning of time. Everyone knows this.
 
I think he gets it way more than you do. He is looking at this problem objectively and without any bias or agenda. He isn't speaking as a liberal or a conservative, just as an open-minded individual. I completely agree with him.

Can you tell me where your "expertise" of islam comes from?

Reading Quran, Reading Hadiths, Reading what Imams and Emirs say i.e. people who practice. Last people I read are willfully ignorant westerners who have no principles. They let hundreds of thousands of Black africans die in darfur to jihad dispite claiming never again. They let 3 million hindus die in the 70s bangledesh. They let 200,000 Albanians die for not being quite Muslim enough. They let secular Iranians die each day. No, instead they criticize US foreign policy for errant bombs. They are a fucking joke IMO.
 
They will probably rely on the tried and true techniques endorsed by interrogation professionals the world over. Not only are these techniques extremely effective but they also have the benefit of not being illegal.

Pretty great, huh?

Except he now has an attorney....Obummer 🙁
 
So she goes to a foreign region and shows respect for their culture. How horrible!!!

Same excuse is given why we allow gross human rights violations across Muslim world,"it's their culture", pathetic. Any country that flogs women for minor infraction, makes rape cases have 4 male witnesses for conviction - a virtual impossibility, doesn't respect religious and social minorities does not deserve our respect.
 
You don't get it. It will never happen wolf because Men like Osama are right are pious. The verses of the sword can not be denied explained away or otherwise ignored. Mohammed, the prophet, the prefect Muslim, who personally generaled massacres and took slaves and booty can not be denied explained away or otherwise ignored.

Religious scriptures matter surprisingly little in determining the actual behavior of religious people over time. The Old Testament, New Testament, The Koran and other scriptures contain both violent and peaceful elements, and these elements have been used to justify a wide variety of behavior over time, both bad and good. Looking back several hundred years, even after the crusades and inquisition, Catholics and Protestants were torturing and killing each other all over Europe. During the reign of Henry XIII alone in early 16th century England, tens of thousands of people were burned, tortured, beheaded and hanged entirely for religious reasons. One could look at that from the perspective of that time and make a similar claim to the one that you are making here - that Christians were beyond redemption and would never reform. But the simple truth is that religion moves with the culture and the times. Until Islamic cultures are ready to embrace modernity and secularism, the situation will not change, but there is no reason to suspect that those cultures are not just at an earlier stage of the same trajectory as the west.

And by secularism, I do not mean the elimination of religion. What I mean is the separation of religion from government and civic affairs, and the comparmentalization of religion to the private domain, with respect accorded to the sphere of secular government and law. The trouble with certain religious people - be they radical islamists or Christians who kill abortion doctors - is that they believe they are operating by divine commandment and that this then trumps the prohibitions of secular law. So what I mean by secularism is to first separate religion from government and law, and then to respect secular law in its own right. This is not the case throughout much of the Islamic world right now, just as it was not the case in the Christian world for nearly 2000 years.

- wolf
 
So she goes to a foreign region and shows respect for their culture. How horrible!!!

And for her trip to China she will find a 9 year old to follow her around, shine her shoes, do all her physical labor for her, and if said child is lucky bring them back to America.

Out of respect.
 
These interrogation professionals are just pandering to the American public, because they know they will loose their jobs if the tell the truth about torture and interrogation. The real tried and true techniques have been in use since the beginning of time. Everyone knows this.

They do tell the truth every once an awile. I once posted many news stories with Iraqi, American and Egyptian interrogators saying how effective it was. Liberals try and explain it away with counter intelligence professionals but it flies in face on common sense and history as far as I'm concerned. Plus I used to torture people for information so I have practical knowledge.

No, their best argument, which I agree with is we're Americans and should hold ourselves to a higher standard, be beacon on a hill of human rights.
 
They do tell the truth every once an awile. I once posted many news stories with Iraqi, American and Egyptian interrogators saying how effective it was. Liberals try and explain it away with counter intelligence professionals but it flies in face on common sense and history as far as I'm concerned. Plus I used to torture people for information so I have practical knowledge.

No, their best argument, which I agree with is we're Americans and should hold ourselves to a higher standard, be beacon on a hill of human rights.


I would agree with you if the discussion was over chopping off fingers or gouging out eye balls. We are talking about putting people in situations where there is little to no threat to their life.
 
They do tell the truth every once an awile. I once posted many news stories with Iraqi, American and Egyptian interrogators saying how effective it was. Liberals try and explain it away with counter intelligence professionals but it flies in face on common sense and history as far as I'm concerned. Plus I used to torture people for information so I have practical knowledge.

No, their best argument, which I agree with is we're Americans and should hold ourselves to a higher standard, be beacon on a hill of human rights.

I think the issue of when torture does and does not work gets blurred in the discussion. It certainly doesn't work as a tool for extracting valid confessions for purposes of prosecution, because people will confess to crimes they did not commit to end the torture. It may, however, work in some cases for gaining actionable intelligence.

Still, your last sentence pretty well captures why we should not torture.

- wolf
 
I would agree with you if the discussion was over chopping off fingers or gouging out eye balls. We are talking about putting people in situations where there is little to no threat to their life.

Then I question the efficacy of torture. If there is no threat of bodily harm or death a major impetus to talk is removed. Didn't you have bothers? it wasnt till you started wailing on their face they would tell you where toys or your pron stash were hidden. Otherwise they would say "make me" as if to say I dare you to torture me.
 
Then I question the efficacy of torture. If there is no threat of bodily harm or death a major impetus to talk is removed. Didn't you have bothers? it wasnt till you started wailing on their face they would tell you where toys or your pron stash were hidden. Otherwise they would say "make me" as if to say I dare you to torture me.

Making them think there is a threat of bodly hard/death and actually putting them in a position to die are two different things. See water-boarding.
 
These interrogation professionals are just pandering to the American public, because they know they will loose their jobs if the tell the truth about torture and interrogation. The real tried and true techniques have been in use since the beginning of time. Everyone knows this.

Hahaha, the war and interrogation expert chimes in again. With this as usual, you have a child's understanding. Don't worry, when you grow up and see the real world you'll understand.

You've been trolling a lot harder than usual lately, I'm guessing your high school is on Christmas vacation?
 
Didn't Obama apologize? I thought we were all good now.

Maybe in the Bizarro world you live in where all libs are eveil anbd stupid and all conservatives are smart, /geniuses like Sarah Palin and George Jesus H Bush. =-)

In this world he did NOT apologize to Al Qaeda, and continues to try and stop them as Bush did.

He did apologize for some mistakes that were made, but not to Al Qaeda. The only mistake that we made there was not killing more of them in Afganistan.
 
They do tell the truth every once an awile. I once posted many news stories with Iraqi, American and Egyptian interrogators saying how effective it was. Liberals try and explain it away with counter intelligence professionals but it flies in face on common sense and history as far as I'm concerned. Plus I used to torture people for information so I have practical knowledge.

No, their best argument, which I agree with is we're Americans and should hold ourselves to a higher standard, be beacon on a hill of human rights.

Yeah, silly liberals using the professional opinion of those who do interrogations for a living.
 
Religious scriptures matter surprisingly little in determining the actual behavior of religious people over time. The Old Testament, New Testament, The Koran and other scriptures contain both violent and peaceful elements, and these elements have been used to justify a wide variety of behavior over time, both bad and good. Looking back several hundred years, even after the crusades and inquisition, Catholics and Protestants were torturing and killing each other all over Europe. During the reign of Henry XIII alone in early 16th century England, tens of thousands of people were burned, tortured, beheaded and hanged entirely for religious reasons. One could look at that from the perspective of that time and make a similar claim to the one that you are making here - that Christians were beyond redemption and would never reform. But the simple truth is that religion moves with the culture and the times. Until Islamic cultures are ready to embrace modernity and secularism, the situation will not change, but there is no reason to suspect that those cultures are not just at an earlier stage of the same trajectory as the west.

And by secularism, I do not mean the elimination of religion. What I mean is the separation of religion from government and civic affairs, and the comparmentalization of religion to the private domain, with respect accorded to the sphere of secular government and law. The trouble with certain religious people - be they radical islamists or Christians who kill abortion doctors - is that they believe they are operating by divine commandment and that this then trumps the prohibitions of secular law. So what I mean by secularism is to first separate religion from government and law, and then to respect secular law in its own right. This is not the case throughout much of the Islamic world right now, just as it was not the case in the Christian world for nearly 2000 years.

- wolf
I would counter we are seeing Islam redivivus and most authors agree. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_revival

I would also argue it centers around Islamic author and thinker Sayyid Qutb who said the abandonment of sharia law, a most violent retrograde set of laws imo, he claimed the Muslim world was in fact no longer Muslim at all (jahiliyyah) and the cause of their fall from grace and empire for a couple centuries now. In order to be powerful again, the ummah, the community of believers, must accepts Islam and Sharia in full - which they are doing. Pakistan, Indonesia, turkey, Egypt and just about every other Muslim country is abandoning modern precepts for fundamentalist Islam.
 
I would counter we are seeing Islam redivivus and most authors agree. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_revival

I would also argue it centers around Islamic author and thinker Sayyid Qutb who said the abandonment of sharia law, a most violent retrograde set of laws imo, he claimed the Muslim world was in fact no longer Muslim at all (jahiliyyah) and the cause of their fall from grace and empire for a couple centuries now. In order to be powerful again, the ummah, the community of believers, must accepts Islam and Sharia in full - which they are doing. Pakistan, Indonesia, turkey, Egypt and just about every other Muslim country is abandoning modern precepts for fundamentalist Islam.

No question about it. There has been a revival over the past three decades. Not so very different from periods of religious revival in the west, including in the U.S. My argument, rather, is that there is a trend toward secularization and modernity in the world at large, over the long sweep. Any such trends, however, are subject to shorter term reversals, which can often be a reactionary backlash that occurs when things move too quickly.

- wolf
 
Except he now has an attorney....Obummer 🙁

Yeah, sucks that we have laws that everyone follows, doesn't it?

You should be glad of those laws. Otherwise someone would arrest you without evidence and torture you for 5 years. I bet you would change your tune then, wouldn't you?

Yes or no, do you mind being picked up by the FBI for 5+ years of torture and not have any rights? I'd put money when it comes to you, you would insist on all laws being followed and want a lawyer. Funny how that works. You can't have it both ways.
 
Yeah, sucks that we have laws that everyone follows, doesn't it?

You should be glad of those laws. Otherwise someone would arrest you without evidence and torture you for 5 years. I bet you would change your tune then, wouldn't you?

Yes or no, do you mind being picked up by the FBI for 5+ years of torture and not have any rights? I'd put money when it comes to you, you would insist on all laws being followed and want a lawyer. Funny how that works. You can't have it both ways.

Sure you can. Rendition is legal. Lets us stay up on our soapbox, and still get the results we need. Of course, Obama decided to keep rendition intact for the secret stuff that the public never hears about.

WE don't torture. Words...Just words....And that is the way it should be........
 
No question about it. There has been a revival over the past three decades. Not so very different from periods of religious revival in the west, including in the U.S. My argument, rather, is that there is a trend toward secularization and modernity in the world at large, over the long sweep. Any such trends, however, are subject to shorter term reversals, which can often be a reactionary backlash that occurs when things move too quickly.

- wolf

Not in the case of Islam, though. There have been many attempts to modernize it's thought process by many reformers over centuries, but whatever little progress they made has been reversed by those who believe the word of the book is final and not open to negotiation.
 
but whatever little progress they made has been reversed by those who believe the word of the book is final and not open to negotiation.

There are people like that for every religion. However, there are plenty of Muslims willing to accept the Quran as allegorical and not completely literal.
 
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