ATOT, explain time to me

Toggle sidebar Toggle sidebar
moonbogg

moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
10,737
3,455
136
The question is simple. From what I've heard, the passage of time is illusory. Time represents an axis which corresponds to the probabilities of states, but there is no evidence of time flowing in the way we perceive it.
So, the question is, how can the state of the universe change from one state to the next if there is no "time" between states? I would think that the "time" between states would be instant, and if that were the case the entire universe should be born and die instantly. The thing that seems to be separating these states is time, but time seems to be only the comparison of one state to another, giving the illusion of time's flow. So what separates the different states of change if its not time?
 
disappoint

disappoint

Lifer
Dec 7, 2009
10,132
382
126
Time is a dimension like the x,y,z spacial dimensions. The faster something travels through the spacial dimensions the less it travels through time. That is why the "fabric" of the universe is called spacetime.
 
moonbogg

moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
10,737
3,455
136
Oh shit. Holy shit hang on. The relativity principle makes sense. If the universe consisted of only one object, time would be meaningless, because it could be in motion and it wouldn't mean anything because it wouldn't be getting any closer or farther to anything.
If the universe consisted of only two objects, you could separate them, and that could count as time, but the individual objects themselves would be unchanged, forever static.
So it seems that change is only the relative movement of "objects", be it particles or larger objects. If two objects collide and undergo a change, the most fundamental building blocks should remain static, just change position in relation to each other.
If the speed of light is the measuring stick to compare all movements, then you could increase the speed of light and everything else with it, and our subjective experience would remain the same. From a hypothetical outside perspective, our universe could slow down or speed up, but the subjects within it would notice no difference. So, time is meaningless ultimately and means nothing.

Remove the space aspect and you should have fundamental particles frozen and eternal. I don't see how anything can be created ever if any of this is true.
 
Last edited:
Sonikku

Sonikku

Lifer
Jun 23, 2005
15,916
4,960
136
Clearly time can be reversed by flying around the Earth fast enough.

Everyone knows this.
 
sandorski

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,882
6,420
126
For the procrastinator, Time is eternal, until 2 minutes before a deadline, then there is never enough Time.

It is a conundrum that perhaps, in time, someone will solve.
 
phucheneh

phucheneh

Diamond Member
Jun 30, 2012
7,306
5
0
moonbogg said:
Right, but things are changing, correct? If you strike a match, it undergoes a change. How can change happen without time? See what I'm asking?
Click to expand...

The concept you're looking for is 'entropy.'

edit: Clearly that answer is too concise, I'm thinking. To expand-

The match is a low entropy object. It is an object manufactured to precise specifications by a highly-evolved lifeform. If you jumble up its molecules, it is unlikely to remain an effective fire-starting device.

Burning the match greatly increases its entropy. It is now just a pile of ash. Fart on it, put it in a blender, and snort it up your nose. It's still just the same bits of ash.

Time flows, and flows one way, because total entropy ALWAYS increases.
 
Last edited:
ElFenix

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,408
8,596
126
moonbogg said:
The question is simple. From what I've heard, the passage of time is illusory. Time represents an axis which corresponds to the probabilities of states, but there is no evidence of time flowing in the way we perceive it.
So, the question is, how can the state of the universe change from one state to the next if there is no "time" between states? I would think that the "time" between states would be instant, and if that were the case the entire universe should be born and die instantly. The thing that seems to be separating these states is time, but time seems to be only the comparison of one state to another, giving the illusion of time's flow. So what separates the different states of change if its not time?
Click to expand...

iirc, from a photon's "perspective" the entire universe is at once.

which, knowing that objects are leaving the visible universe due to expansion even as the bounds of the visible universe expand, leaves me with a question as to what happens to those photons?
 
moonbogg

moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
10,737
3,455
136
Change can only happen with time. If time isn't real, then that means change is also illusory. There must be fundamental particles or forces that are unchanging, and the illusion of change only happens at the higher emergent levels, where those fundamental units separate and rearrange (a chemical reaction, a glass breaking etc) but really, nothing fundamental is changing. How could it? Change takes time. If time isn't real, then neither is change.
 
RichUK

RichUK

Lifer
Feb 14, 2005
10,341
678
126
Boobs.gif
 
Hayabusa Rider

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
I do know this. Anyone who tells you they understand the nature of time is either deluded or wishes to delude you. No one gets it at all. They can make some guesses about the various aspects of it, but is actually is? It is one of the great mysteries.
 
zinfamous

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,997
31,568
146
Time is a flat circle.
Everything that we have done, that we have experienced will happen again. Those poor girls will just find themselves in that room again, and again, and again.
 
norseamd

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
My own current opinion is that time does not exist and we are basically observing the changing of the state of particles or other elements of existence.
 
moonbogg

moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
10,737
3,455
136
norseamd said:
My own current opinion is that time does not exist and we are basically observing the changing of the state of particles or other elements of existence.
Click to expand...

My thoughts on your comment are that both "observing" and "change" both require time to unfold. Going from one state to another needs some amount of time, or else they would all happen at once.
But, if time is an illusion, and there are some particles or something else fundamental and unchanging, then those particles can remain unchanged, but combined together they form other things at a higher, emergent level and its at those levels that those particles come undone, or re combine, to give the illusion of change.
I'll give an example. You have a room full of blocks. They never change, but you can build a house out of them. If you knock the house down, you think it takes time for it to fall apart, but "the house" occupies an emergent level of reality and it is an illusion consisting of the static, unchanging blocks. The blocks are fundamental, they don't change, therefore the change is an illusion. With regard to time and any real effect it may have, you need to watch those blocks, because they are the fundamental fabric and everything else is emergent from them.
Moving them through space to shape the house doesn't equal change. It equals location in space-time. If you move something through space, the object doesn't change. It isn't effected by time, because time doesn't exist according to this idea. If you keep your eye on the fundamental blocks, then time has no place or effect.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

TRENDING THREADS

COMPANY
RESOURCES
FOLLOW
Top Bottom