If Texas announced secession I would move there in a second but I don't think the federal government would "allow" it.
If Texas announced secession I would move there in a second but I don't think the federal government would "allow" it.
Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
- Jan 26, 2000
- 50,879
- 4,268
- 126
I will read the article later but I have found Ayn Rand to be a great catalyst for continued philosophical learning. The fact that her writing was simplistic, passionate, and to the point is a plus when starting out intellectually, and a plus when addressing how her views applied to the real world. Since it's not overly scholarly it's easy to read and understand. She, unlike many scholars of philosophy in colleges today, was committed to the idea that philosophy must apply to real life in useful ways.
In that sense she remains topically relevant to today's issues and gives us another valuable perspective to consider and analyze. No "philosopher" has a perfect system, so her little Objectivist club is kind of silly. But what's more important is what you can pull out of it for further treatment. I do consider her in the elite world inhabited by philosopher/novelists such as Dostoevski and Sarte.
In that sense she remains topically relevant to today's issues and gives us another valuable perspective to consider and analyze. No "philosopher" has a perfect system, so her little Objectivist club is kind of silly. But what's more important is what you can pull out of it for further treatment. I do consider her in the elite world inhabited by philosopher/novelists such as Dostoevski and Sarte.
Steeplerot
Lifer
- Mar 29, 2004
- 13,051
- 6
- 81
ATLAS SHRUGGED: THE ABRIDGED VERSION (with spoilers)
AYN RAND
Hello, I'm Ayn Rand. I wrote a novel based on my Objectivist philosophy called The Fountainhead, but I don't think 700 pages was quite enough to get my point across, so I will write the exact same novel, only it will take 1100 pages this time.
READERS
Hey, great.
HEROINE
I'm Dagny Taggart. I am a railroad tycoon, woman-in-a-man's-world, stunningly beautiful heroine. I am the only person capable of running this railroad. I am the only woman in the universe worth a damn. I am also the only woman in the universe with a real job. I am basically the only woman in this novel.
LOVE INTEREST #1
I have worshiped you, the only woman in the universe worth a damn, from afar for my whole life.
HEROINE
That's nice.
LOVE INTEREST #2
I have worshiped you, the only woman in the universe worth a damn, naked on the forest floor. Yet I will nobly step aside in the name of noble idealism, despite the fact that I love you and want you, the only woman in the universe worth a damn, desperately.
HEROINE
Okay.
LOVE INTEREST #3
I worship you, the only woman in the universe worth a damn. Let us have creepy rape fantasy sex now. I will not ask permission to do all these kinky things to you, but luckily you want to be forced into all the kinky things, you dirty bitch.
HEROINE
This is clearly true love! Stick it in me.
ALL
Who is John Galt?
AYN RAND
I am not telling. Instead, please listen to someone pontificate about my Objectivist philosophy for a while.
SOMEONE
(Pontificates)
VILLAINS
There are many of us, but we are all exactly the same. We are caricatures of evil socialists and embodiments of pure evil. Let us create a perfect socialist world order ruled by the inept! We all suck! Socialism sucks! Ha ha!
HEROES
We are all exactly the same. We are noble and perfect and have very angular and insolent faces. We can read each other's minds and the minds of everyone else in this novel, leaving less room for misunderstanding and more room for pontificating. And we are all in love with Dagny Taggart, the only woman in the universe worth a damn.
ALL
Who is John Galt?
VILLAIN
(Threatens hero.)
HERO
(Flips coin)
If it's heads, I will gaze apathetically. If it's tails, I will laugh heartily.
VILLAIN
Although these are the only two things any of you heroes have done for the past 800 pages, I am shocked at this response! How could you! How dare you!?!
HERO
I will now pontificate about Ayn Rand's philosophy. It has been at least 50 pages since you've heard it.
AYN RAND
It is so convenient that all of my heroes are in perfect agreement about my philosophy so that their pontificating is so interchangeable.
ALL
Who is John Galt?
JOHN GALT
Hello. In this, the culmination of all the pontificating, I will explain Ayn Rand's philosophy for a full 57 pages. No, I am not kidding. This one monologue will last for 57 pages. Oh and also, I love Dagny.
DAGNY
I love you too. Man, this is really going to suck for Love Interest #3.
LOVE INTEREST #3
Despite my passionate love for you and enjoyment of our rape sex, and the fact that there is no other woman on earth worth a damn, and the fact that I sacrificed my life's passion on your behalf, and that I spent my entire fortune to get a divorce to be with you, I will now nobly step aside in the name of noble idealism.
DAGNY
Great! I will miss our creepy rape sex. Farewell.
LOVE INTEREST #3
Bye.
READER
Wait, what?
ATLAS
(Shrugs)
THE END
-Copied with NO permission because I am a collectivist sonofabitch like that -Red
AYN RAND
Hello, I'm Ayn Rand. I wrote a novel based on my Objectivist philosophy called The Fountainhead, but I don't think 700 pages was quite enough to get my point across, so I will write the exact same novel, only it will take 1100 pages this time.
READERS
Hey, great.
HEROINE
I'm Dagny Taggart. I am a railroad tycoon, woman-in-a-man's-world, stunningly beautiful heroine. I am the only person capable of running this railroad. I am the only woman in the universe worth a damn. I am also the only woman in the universe with a real job. I am basically the only woman in this novel.
LOVE INTEREST #1
I have worshiped you, the only woman in the universe worth a damn, from afar for my whole life.
HEROINE
That's nice.
LOVE INTEREST #2
I have worshiped you, the only woman in the universe worth a damn, naked on the forest floor. Yet I will nobly step aside in the name of noble idealism, despite the fact that I love you and want you, the only woman in the universe worth a damn, desperately.
HEROINE
Okay.
LOVE INTEREST #3
I worship you, the only woman in the universe worth a damn. Let us have creepy rape fantasy sex now. I will not ask permission to do all these kinky things to you, but luckily you want to be forced into all the kinky things, you dirty bitch.
HEROINE
This is clearly true love! Stick it in me.
ALL
Who is John Galt?
AYN RAND
I am not telling. Instead, please listen to someone pontificate about my Objectivist philosophy for a while.
SOMEONE
(Pontificates)
VILLAINS
There are many of us, but we are all exactly the same. We are caricatures of evil socialists and embodiments of pure evil. Let us create a perfect socialist world order ruled by the inept! We all suck! Socialism sucks! Ha ha!
HEROES
We are all exactly the same. We are noble and perfect and have very angular and insolent faces. We can read each other's minds and the minds of everyone else in this novel, leaving less room for misunderstanding and more room for pontificating. And we are all in love with Dagny Taggart, the only woman in the universe worth a damn.
ALL
Who is John Galt?
VILLAIN
(Threatens hero.)
HERO
(Flips coin)
If it's heads, I will gaze apathetically. If it's tails, I will laugh heartily.
VILLAIN
Although these are the only two things any of you heroes have done for the past 800 pages, I am shocked at this response! How could you! How dare you!?!
HERO
I will now pontificate about Ayn Rand's philosophy. It has been at least 50 pages since you've heard it.
AYN RAND
It is so convenient that all of my heroes are in perfect agreement about my philosophy so that their pontificating is so interchangeable.
ALL
Who is John Galt?
JOHN GALT
Hello. In this, the culmination of all the pontificating, I will explain Ayn Rand's philosophy for a full 57 pages. No, I am not kidding. This one monologue will last for 57 pages. Oh and also, I love Dagny.
DAGNY
I love you too. Man, this is really going to suck for Love Interest #3.
LOVE INTEREST #3
Despite my passionate love for you and enjoyment of our rape sex, and the fact that there is no other woman on earth worth a damn, and the fact that I sacrificed my life's passion on your behalf, and that I spent my entire fortune to get a divorce to be with you, I will now nobly step aside in the name of noble idealism.
DAGNY
Great! I will miss our creepy rape sex. Farewell.
LOVE INTEREST #3
Bye.
READER
Wait, what?
ATLAS
(Shrugs)
THE END
-Copied with NO permission because I am a collectivist sonofabitch like that -Red
Steeplerot
Lifer
- Mar 29, 2004
- 13,051
- 6
- 81
You are about as insightful as Ayn Rand yourself.
Can we have creepy rape sex? I have seen the light!
Steeplerot
Lifer
- Mar 29, 2004
- 13,051
- 6
- 81
Steeplerot
Lifer
- Mar 29, 2004
- 13,051
- 6
- 81
Before I get flamed by 1545^1000 College idealists I do think that Rand has a point when it comes to her liberated individualist aspect of Objectivism, as Marx has his good points of Collectivist Social Justice and Democracy.
(Which is why both are still taught about)
But like anything else too much of any philosophy starts to creep me out sounding like someone is trying to pitch me a jesus pamphlet in a airport terminal.
At least Max kept it short and to the point, Ayn Rand goes ON AND ON AND ON making no point but pontificating and hating "evil socialism".
That said she was a Russian immigrant trying to get in with "The big rollers" the whole Objectivism thing in her books and Capitalist worship in my opinion was a attention whore ploy to big monied people back in the day when the Commie scare was in full swing.
And possibly the anti-socialism thing she endless ranted about was a bit of fear for her own safety. Russian immigrants were shipped right back out of USA if they even remotely showed signs of being red. I am sure she watched what the US government did to Emma Goldman back then with a close eye being another strong willed woman writer and former Russian.
(Which is why both are still taught about)
But like anything else too much of any philosophy starts to creep me out sounding like someone is trying to pitch me a jesus pamphlet in a airport terminal.
At least Max kept it short and to the point, Ayn Rand goes ON AND ON AND ON making no point but pontificating and hating "evil socialism".
That said she was a Russian immigrant trying to get in with "The big rollers" the whole Objectivism thing in her books and Capitalist worship in my opinion was a attention whore ploy to big monied people back in the day when the Commie scare was in full swing.
And possibly the anti-socialism thing she endless ranted about was a bit of fear for her own safety. Russian immigrants were shipped right back out of USA if they even remotely showed signs of being red. I am sure she watched what the US government did to Emma Goldman back then with a close eye being another strong willed woman writer and former Russian.
Deeko
Lifer
- Jun 16, 2000
- 30,213
- 12
- 81
A friend sent me that article a few days ago. While yes, there are certainly real parallels that you can draw, its foolish to assume the same conclusion will be reached. There is no evidence to that. You can always draw parallels to literature like that. We've covered quite a few of Marx' steps towards communism too, but we're a lot farther from communism now than we were in the early-mid 20th century.
I have been thinking this same thing too recently. The way that the hard working people are more and more forced to pay for a group of lazy and unproductive group who gets larger and larger by the day and essentially do nothing but vote themselves more and more gifts from the working class. Not to mention the fact that these people breed at a FAR greater pace then the educated people meaning that the number of workers is growing much slower then the number of leeches.
That said, Ayn Rand is a crack pot, she takes a good idea and goes WAAAAY past the appropriate stopping point. I think that Karl Marx is in fact a very similar person to compare here too in the fact that they both are very intelligent and see alot of what is wrong in the world, but take their points of view to absurd extremes.
I am a firm believer in capitalism, but if you look back at the time when the ultra-wealthy capitalists had power they treated the working man like dirt in order to make a few more bucks. This isn't right either, we should ENCOURAGE people to work by paying decent wages, not by beating them into submission and have a few elite people control the world. We just need to end about half of our welfare programs that that people are incentivised to work, not incentivised to sit on their asses. For one thing we need to stop paying poor people more money for having more kids. I might say force people who accept welfare to be sterilized, but some might disagree.
That said, Ayn Rand is a crack pot, she takes a good idea and goes WAAAAY past the appropriate stopping point. I think that Karl Marx is in fact a very similar person to compare here too in the fact that they both are very intelligent and see alot of what is wrong in the world, but take their points of view to absurd extremes.
I am a firm believer in capitalism, but if you look back at the time when the ultra-wealthy capitalists had power they treated the working man like dirt in order to make a few more bucks. This isn't right either, we should ENCOURAGE people to work by paying decent wages, not by beating them into submission and have a few elite people control the world. We just need to end about half of our welfare programs that that people are incentivised to work, not incentivised to sit on their asses. For one thing we need to stop paying poor people more money for having more kids. I might say force people who accept welfare to be sterilized, but some might disagree.
well, no because in the book there were alot of very rich people who also never did anything useful in life and they got left behind too.
StageLeft
No Lifer
- Sep 29, 2000
- 70,150
- 5
- 0
I've thought about reading an Ayn Rand book, but the people I know who seem to really like her stuff are self-centered assholes who make atheism their religion and have evacuated all sense of spirituality from their being. That is a sweeping stereotype, but is it possible to appreciate her work and not turn into a selfish fvck? I am being serious (I've not read any posts in this thread yet, so please nobody take offense! 
).
).
WhipperSnapper
Lifer
- Oct 30, 2004
- 11,442
- 32
- 91
It's funny that someone posted this since I'd thought about starting a similar thread myself when I saw the WSJ article earlier.
As an Ayn Rand fan and former Objectivist type, I'm sad to see that so many people here have misunderstood Atlas Shrugged and the Objectivist philosophy in various ways.
Is Atlas Shrugged becoming prophetic? Partially. Some parts of this nation's economic and cultural disease were described in the book and some parts weren't.
Widespread irrationality that has economic implications (people doing drugs, having children they can't afford, borrowing and spending money they don't have on luxury items, etc.)? Check.
Government regulations and red tape that interfere with "the freedom of production and trade"? Check.
The government being in bed with favored companies and businessmen, writing laws to favor some of them and doling out monetary gifts to bad executives and failing businesses? Check.
Mass immigration as either being benign or beneficial to the nation's economy? Errrt. The importation of impoverished people has worked to drive down wages for the lower classes and increased the demand for limited natural resources and increased pollution and the strain on the environment.
Unrestricted free international trade as being an engine of prosperity? Errrt. We're now learning, first-hand and painfully, that foreign outsourcing and work visas can damage the nation's economy and reduce the middle class's standard of living. If every nation had almost the exact same environmental and labor laws and a similar standard of living then this wouldn't be the case, but the fact of the matter is that global labor arbitrage does exist and that comparative advantage doesn't apply when capital can easily move across international boundaries.
WhipperSnapper
Lifer
- Oct 30, 2004
- 11,442
- 32
- 91
It's an atheist philosophy but that doesn't mean that Objectivists are devoid of feelings or passions. In fact, the opposite is probably more likely to be true. As atheists Objectivists would not be "spiritual" in the mystical sense, but they would be "spiritual" in terms of their having passion and of having art that would be emotionally meaningful to them. See the story of the Stoddard Temple in The Fountainhead for an example of Objectivist "spirituality".
That is a sweeping stereotype, but is it possible to appreciate her work and not turn into a selfish fvck? I am being serious (I've not read any posts in this thread yet, so please nobody take offense!
Do you have confidence in yourself to be able to read a book you may or may not agree with and to maintain your rational faculty? I do hope that you'll read both The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged, regardless of whether you agree or disagree with the philosophy simply because doing so is an awesome intellectual experience. You'll get a chance to ponder great, fundamental issues of philosophy and to question your own ideas. Your thought will be a little more developed as a result of it and you might gain deeper insight into numerous issues and to be able to see underlying philosophical issues and connections that you had not recognized before.
I suggest starting with The Fountainhead and just reading it like a story and not as though it's a source of great wisdom or philosophy. It's a great and highly influential novel that has influenced millions of people around the world and you'll find the philosophy in the telling of the story.
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