Atlanta schools cheating scandal

[Infohawk]

Didn't we (the US) rank like 38th or something in math last year? I would say we suck pretty bad at educating our children. I sure as hell don't have the solution but I do know that there is a problem.

Who cares? Has it stopped us from having bad ass scientists or engineers? No.

It sickens me that people look at third-world cookie-cutter countries to try to emulate what they have in terms of math. There's a reason they're coming over here. Most people don't need that much math, even in this technologically-advanced age. If engineers, scientists, and mathematicians were really in that high demand their salaries would be much higher.

The US system allows people with genuine interest in math and science to follow that interest. When I see third-world scientists and engineers, they are often not really into it. It's just their ticket to a better life. That is now how great scientists and engineers actually think. They actually like it. There's no reason to force people that want to design clothes to learn calculus.

 

[sygyzy]

FYI while unacceptable, the real reasons behind this happening start in the child's home.

Do you know what FYI stands for and how it's used?

 

[HeXen]

FYI while unacceptable, the real reasons behind this happening start in the child's home.

thank you Dr. Phil. However even the best of homes does not make a dumb child smart. Some kids are just slower, have shorter attention spans or just flat out don't give a f****.

I remember one of my child hood friends had a better home than i did, 2 parents, clean home, hot sister, a dog and a freakin cat. He got paddled when he deserved it, dad bought him a cool car when 16...etc.
Yet he flat out didnt give a fuck in school and ended up failing then droppin out despite dad beating the crap out of him for doing so.

Others are just too slow for a 24+ kid sized class room where teachers have to keep a pace.

 

[Darwin333]

Who cares? Has it stopped us from having bad ass scientists or engineers? No.

It sickens me that people look at third-world cookie-cutter countries to try to emulate what they have in terms of math. There's a reason they're coming over here. Most people don't need that much math, even in this technologically-advanced age. If engineers, scientists, and mathematicians were really in that high demand their salaries would be much higher.

The US system allows people with genuine interest in math and science to follow that interest. When I see third-world scientists and engineers, they are often not really into it. It's just their ticket to a better life. That is now how great scientists and engineers actually think. They actually like it. There's no reason to force people that want to design clothes to learn calculus.

Go to your nearest retailer and purchase a product. Ask the person behind the counter to calculate your change without using the register... Want real hilarity, try giving them an assortment of bills so that you end up getting a single large bill back (total is $22.59 you give them $32.75).


YES people need to know basic fucking math. I am not talking trig or calculus here, I am talking basic addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. You know, that stuff they teach in elementary school? Yeah, we suck at that.

And as for those countries that sicken you, aren't most of them that come over here kicking our asses in our own higher education schools? Is that the part that sickens you?

P.S. The ratio of "our" scientists and engineers that are "kicking ass" are also increasingly (by a huge margin) foreign born scientists and engineers. Chew on this:

In 1994, there were 6.2 U.S.-born workers for every foreign-born worker in science and engineering occupations. By 2006, the ratio was 3.1 to 1

Wanna run the math for me that if that trend continues when we will have more foreign born workers in science and engineering then people born and educated in the US? Can you?

 

[Uhtrinity]

Others are just too slow for a 24+ kid sized class room where teachers have to keep a pace.

I agree, you can't spend 90% of your time on the lowest 5% or 10% or the highest 90% will be drug down as well. I've had some students in my computer lab who just don't get it or don't care. I can give them extra time and attention, but only to a point before the rest of the class suffers.

 

[Uhtrinity]

Go to your nearest retailer and purchase a product. Ask the person behind the counter to calculate your change without using the register... Want real hilarity, try giving them an assortment of bills so that you end up getting a single large bill back (total is $22.59 you give them $32.75).


YES people need to know basic fucking math. I am not talking trig or calculus here, I am talking basic addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. You know, that stuff they teach in elementary school? Yeah, we suck at that.

And as for those countries that sicken you, aren't most of them that come over here kicking our asses in our own higher education schools? Is that the part that sickens you?

P.S. The ratio of "our" scientists and engineers that are "kicking ass" are also increasingly (by a huge margin) foreign born scientists and engineers. Chew on this:



Wanna run the math for me that if that trend continues when we will have more foreign born workers in science and engineering then people born and educated in the US? Can you?

Lol, I usually try to mentally calculate change before they ring it up. My 8 year old son laughs at me when I'm off by a few pennies. I agree that the basic skills are the most lacking and that most won't need advanced math, not that they shouldn't be exposed to it at least once. During the ISATs this last spring I spent some time explaining the concepts of trigonometry to one of our administrators. Even with a Masters he had never had much exposure. Where I had a mostly science and technical education it was used often.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Go to your nearest retailer and purchase a product. Ask the person behind the counter to calculate your change without using the register... Want real hilarity, try giving them an assortment of bills so that you end up getting a single large bill back (total is $22.59 you give them $32.75).

A few years ago, I went and had lunch at a local Arby's. IIRC, I ordered a combo meal and it came out to something like $6.15. I handed the lady a $10 and she stared at the cash register for a moment. She finally called her manager over. He looked at the total, looked at my bill, and said "You owe him $3.85. Give him three $1 bills, three quarters, and a dime." The manager walked off to the back of the restaurant and she went back to fiddling around in the drawer. Finally, she literally grabbed a handful of change and shoved it across the counter at me. I am still shocked to this day.

 

[Wordplay]

This idea might be costly but I think it is time to break our kids into groups based on their level to learn or elementary school grades. So by the time they hit middle school they are either labeled a slow learner, average learner, or fast learner. And re-evaluated before they go into high school.

This way the kids that are dumb can get the attention they need without their schools being labeled as failures and not suffer the consequences for having below average students. The other schools go about their business and do their own thing. Teaching to the fullest extent of their students capability.

 

[Infohawk]

Go to your nearest retailer and purchase a product. Ask the person behind the counter to calculate your change without using the register... Want real hilarity, try giving them an assortment of bills so that you end up getting a single large bill back (total is $22.59 you give them $32.75).


YES people need to know basic fucking math. I am not talking trig or calculus here, I am talking basic addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. You know, that stuff they teach in elementary school? Yeah, we suck at that.

And as for those countries that sicken you, aren't most of them that come over here kicking our asses in our own higher education schools? Is that the part that sickens you?

P.S. The ratio of "our" scientists and engineers that are "kicking ass" are also increasingly (by a huge margin) foreign born scientists and engineers. Chew on this:



Wanna run the math for me that if that trend continues when we will have more foreign born workers in science and engineering then people born and educated in the US? Can you?

You haven't really responded to any points in my post. You're just repeating that they're better at math and science. Again, look at the situation empirically. The US has been a technological leader without worrying about some sort of irrelevant rat race about who's better at high school math.

Innovation comes from a culture of freedom and curiosity, not one where mindless drones regurgitate knowledge back to their professors.

 

[woolfe9999]

Right so the answer should be to repeal no child left behind.

I think a big problem we have towards government is we expect it to have increasing returns. Realistically there's only so much we can achieve with an educational system. We're not going to be able to turn every lost soul in the inner city into a fulfilled scholar. Everyone shits on the US educational system but by in large serious and smart students are given an opportunity to excel.

This is a good point. I would add that the reason we don't have more "serious and smart students" is cultural and starts in the home.

 

[rudder]

What a lot of people don't realize is that No Child Left Behind puts unattainable requirements upon schools. By 2014 100% of students are supposed to be proficient in math and reading.

Which can lead to a school system losing Federal money. In addition many states are moving to merit based pay based partly on those same test scores. Expect the instances of cheating to skyrocket.

 

[ayabe]

Which can lead to a school system losing Federal money. In addition many states are moving to merit based pay based partly on those same test scores. Expect the instances of cheating to skyrocket.

Exactly. Doesn't matter who it is...banksters/teachers/whoever are going to skew numbers in their favor when it means....more money. It's human nature.

 

[Darwin333]

You haven't really responded to any points in my post. You're just repeating that they're better at math and science. Again, look at the situation empirically. The US has been a technological leader without worrying about some sort of irrelevant rat race about who's better at high school math.

Innovation comes from a culture of freedom and curiosity, not one where mindless drones regurgitate knowledge back to their professors.

I responded quite well to that point with the fact that those mindless drones are increasingly becoming the reason that we are a "technological leader".

Furthermore, I stated quite clearly that I am not talking about high school math. I am talking about basic elementary math, you know that stuff that is kinda important to do just about any job.

 

[KK]

I bet you look at each one of these schools, and I can bet you they are about as ghetto as they get. I mean I don't agree with them cheating by no means, but what else do they got. Its the ghetto ass community that should be ashamed by having such stupid ass kids, most of which should have been aborted.

 

[QuantumPion]

Thank you to No Child Left Behind.

So it's better to hand out high school diplomas to illiterate kids because they have a civil right to not be held back a grade when they didn't learn the material?

 

[Exterous]

Still, the only way to fix the system is to hold the system (and its components) accountable for its performance. Assuming that cheating can be at least minimized, at some point even Atlanta teachers will wise up and start agitating for the things (material and otherwise) they need to do their jobs rather than for higher pay and more time off.

Yes - but before we start holding (or at least at the same time) the schools accountable for student performance we need to hold students and parents accountable. The child has to be at school (The truancy program is a joke in a lot of this country. Schools with attendance issues around here will often times only have 1 officer for 6,000+ students). The child must behave. Parents must be involved in their child's education. No more 'Little Johnny is an angel and would never do anything wrong.' bullshit when little Johnny is disciplined for insubordination

The Taylor Public schools were recently part of a study that found 40-50% of the classroom time was spent with classroom management not teaching. 'Put away the cell phone' 'Stop talking' 'Go into the hall' Time spent talking to the student in the hall. 'Give me the cell phone.' "Yes you have to give me the cell phone'. etc

If we hold teachers and administrators accountable for student performance without changing other aspects the system will be inherently unfair and flawed and I would expect we will see many more cases of 'creative accounting' (Not that two wrongs make a right)

I remember one of my child hood friends had a better home than i did, 2 parents, clean home, hot sister, a dog and a freakin cat. He got paddled when he deserved it, dad bought him a cool car when 16...etc.
Yet he flat out didnt give a fuck in school and ended up failing then droppin out despite dad beating the crap out of him for doing so.

Others are just too slow for a 24+ kid sized class room where teachers have to keep a pace.

Your anecdotal evidence does not refute the facts that many problems in education stem from problems/poor parenting at home. Oh and if anything I would suspect that him being given a cool new car at 16 is part of the problem. It sounds like he was not taught the value in hard work (I am just guessing though)

 

[QuantumPion]

This idea might be costly but I think it is time to break our kids into groups based on their level to learn or elementary school grades. So by the time they hit middle school they are either labeled a slow learner, average learner, or fast learner. And re-evaluated before they go into high school.

This way the kids that are dumb can get the attention they need without their schools being labeled as failures and not suffer the consequences for having below average students. The other schools go about their business and do their own thing. Teaching to the fullest extent of their students capability.

It's a good idea but liberals would never go for it, once stats come out showing 60% of blacks are in the slow-learners group, 90% of asians are in the advanced group, etc. Outcomes-based education!

 

[ayabe]

It's a good idea but liberals would never go for it, once stats come out showing 60% of blacks are in the slow-learners group, 90% of asians are in the advanced group, etc. Outcomes-based education!

The only real demographic that matters is income level. Rich kids get private tutors/prep classes/parental support. Poor kids, no matter their race don't have those opportunities and due to budget constraints they're even cutting back on summer school, so the kids that are behind are basically doomed to be forever.

Many of those "slow-learners" can be turned into high achievement learners if given equal opportunities. You're advocating sentencing 10 year old kids to wear scarlet letters for the rest of their scholastic career based on their elementary school performance - which is where much of the inequality in our education system is rooted.

 

[TheFamilyMan]

This is corruption, plane and simple and must be crushed.

Graduate of one of the schools in Atlanta?

 

[Uhtrinity]

So it's better to hand out high school diplomas to illiterate kids because they have a civil right to not be held back a grade when they didn't learn the material?

NCLB states 100% by 2014 when it should have stated 80 - 90%. That number is what we should be deciding on. essentially what is an acceptable proficiency number?

Our school which is a high performing charter school had ~90% for math, ~87% for reading, and 80% for language (down 2 - 3 points from last year). The school we are modeled against scores from the mid 80's to mid 90's across the board. In reality this is about the best you will see and should be the targets. With focus those numbers can be adjusted, but not to 100% in most situations or without lowering the bar.

As someone else posted earlier in the thread, the students who are not proficient should have remedial classes as to not hold back the students who get it. Those students who score advanced should also have the option for advanced placement courses. NCLB attempts to put everyone together which doesn't work in reality.

 

[Uhtrinity]

Yes - but before we start holding (or at least at the same time) the schools accountable for student performance we need to hold students and parents accountable. The child has to be at school (The truancy program is a joke in a lot of this country.

This is one of the focuses at our public charter school. We require 96% attendance. Anything below that is referred to the board for administrative action. For the record no one has ever been removed from the school for low attendance, but the parents are seriously inconvenienced which prompts action on their part. Medical cases are handled individually.

Parents are also expected (and sign up) to be involved in their child's education. If students don't turn in daily homework the child and parents are held responsible. It works for more than 95% of the population. Those students or parents who can't handle it either slide by or remove themselves from the system and return to normal public school.

Economics may be an influence, but that be overcome with a combination of parents and schools that are involved. Even though we have a higher poverty level and special needs population we out perform the local public district. The key difference is that our parents support us and we care. The students perform accordingly.

 

[QuantumPion]

This is one of the focuses at our public charter school. We require 96% attendance. Anything below that is referred to the board for administrative action. For the record no one has ever been removed from the school for low attendance, but the parents are seriously inconvenienced which prompts action on their part. Medical cases are handled individually.

Parents are also expected (and sign up) to be involved in their child's education. If students don't turn in daily homework the child and parents are held responsible. It works for more than 95% of the population. Those students or parents who can't handle it either slide by or remove themselves from the system and return to normal public school.

Economics may be an influence, but that be overcome with a combination of parents and schools that are involved. Even though we have a higher poverty level and special needs population we out perform the local public district. The key difference is that our parents support us and we care. The students perform accordingly.

Are you part of the NEA?

 

[Uhtrinity]

Are you part of the NEA?

No, though I support teachers to be part of unions if they choose. Unfortunately the state has excluded unions when they created charter schools in our state which is a right to work state.

 

[a777pilot]

This is all Bush's fault.

 

[fskimospy]

This is all Bush's fault.

I have to admit you've impressed me. I didn't think your posts could get dumber than when you started, dear Flower Mound, but you have succeeded!

Take a victory lap, you've earned it.