ATI's X1000 bound for AGP market

[Conky]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: fierydemise
This is a step in the right direction, if the low and midrange cards are being released in AGP how long till we see the X1800 in AGP then to compete nVidia will get in on the AGP market, at least I can hope.

when they figure out that MANY of us with midrange AGP systems ARE willing to spend upwards of $400 on a dead-end system.
:Q

i guess they can't figure it out that 70% of their market is AGP
:thumbsdown:

someone will

and they will make money

Maybe since ATI and nVidia make both motherboards and video card chips, they've figured out that you're in a 70% market of motherboard customers they can starve out with no good AGP cards and force you to buy a new motherboard? :laugh:

Or maybe they've done a search on Ebay like I just did, and saw the last P4 2.8 cpu/mobo combo went for $215 + $20 shipping, realized you could buy a FAR superior A64 cpu/mobo for a few dollars more than that, and have your pick of any video card at a cheaper price. Then they thought, "Only guys who like to hold on to ancient hardware and post lots of emoticons while arguing meaningless points would not take such a path".

No need to make fun of him for using emoticons. :roll:

Besides, not everybody is foolish enough to constantly throw money at these manufacturers for what is at most incrementally improved product. As was pointed out earlier in this thread by PC Surgeon, the videocards are not exceeding the 8xAGP bus yet so why make it impossible for 60-70% of the possible buyers to upgrade to the latest videocard?

You can trash your system and replace the cpu, mobo, and videocard set every 2 weeks if you want to but some people just want to be able to play games and enjoy their systems rather than tearing them down every week and running benchmarks to measure their e-penis.

One more emoticon. :laugh:

 

[erwos]

The way I see it is, I want to run (insert fancy new game here). I've got enough RAM, I've got enough CPU, but not enough video card. Why should I put myself through the whole "new system" expense and hassle when I can get another year of use out of it with a simple $200 video card upgrade? The problem isn't "I don't like PCIe". I do, in fact, like it quite a lot. I just don't want to toss out perfectly good hardware for no reason.

-Erwos

 

[NoStateofMind]

Originally posted by: erwos
The way I see it is, I want to run (insert fancy new game here). I've got enough RAM, I've got enough CPU, but not enough video card. Why should I put myself through the whole "new system" expense and hassle when I can get another year of use out of it with a simple $200 video card upgrade? The problem isn't "I don't like PCIe". I do, in fact, like it quite a lot. I just don't want to toss out perfectly good hardware for no reason.

-Erwos

AMEN!

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: fierydemise
This is a step in the right direction, if the low and midrange cards are being released in AGP how long till we see the X1800 in AGP then to compete nVidia will get in on the AGP market, at least I can hope.

when they figure out that MANY of us with midrange AGP systems ARE willing to spend upwards of $400 on a dead-end system.
:Q

i guess they can't figure it out that 70% of their market is AGP
:thumbsdown:

someone will

and they will make money

Maybe since ATI and nVidia make both motherboards and video card chips, they've figured out that you're in a 70% market of motherboard customers they can starve out with no good AGP cards and force you to buy a new motherboard? :laugh:

Or maybe they've done a search on Ebay like I just did, and saw the last P4 2.8 cpu/mobo combo went for $215 + $20 shipping, realized you could buy a FAR superior A64 cpu/mobo for a few dollars more than that, and have your pick of any video card at a cheaper price. Then they thought, "Only guys who like to hold on to ancient hardware and post lots of emoticons while arguing meaningless points would not take such a path".

I forgot . . . you officially speak for nVidia . . . my apologies.



:Q









Anyway . . . since my P4 2.80c at 3.5Ghz is every bit the equal of an A64-3200+ . . . i just don't feel the need to upgrade . . . even in games a x1800xt or 7800gtx in AGP in my current rig would suffice for another 1-1/2 to 2 years for any game i care to throw at it at my resolution of 11x8.

and that IS why . . . they are "waiting" us out to see which one is the next 'pigeon' for their creative marketing.

Truth is i don't NEED to upgrade yet . . . i just need a Gdamn VideoCard . . .

or an X-Box360/PS3

there is an alternative
:thumbsup:

i have both the money and the means to upgrade my rig - not the need . . . otoh, MOST of the 70% [AGPers] needs MAJOR convincing for anentire new system . . . 99% don't have the tech savy to replace a MB.

i say ati and nVidia are stupid . . . they already lost out on sales for good AGP cards while concentrating on the 'top end' . . . the people who buy entire new systems generally don't go for pricey videocards . . . they're STILL going to get x1600xts to maybe 6800GSes [range].

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: Matthias99

Originally posted by: Rollo
This is just the way it is, and has been. The tail does not wag the dog, the industry decides what you'll own, and those who rebel end up buying over priced antiquities.

To some extent, yes. But, as a counterexample, BTX cases/motherboards haven't exactly taken off, despite Intel's hard push to adopt it.

The VESA > PCI move offered no more performance, the PCI to AGP move offered no more performance, and every AGP upgrade since has offered.....no more performance.

That's not entirely fair; VLB and PCI would both be woefully inadequate for the bandwidth needs of the cards we have today. And I'm pretty sure a lot of cards would be hurting at 1-2X AGP as well. PCI is also shared with a number of other peripherals (like sound cards, and sometimes Ethernet controllers, although these are usually directly connected to the NB/SB now, but it wasn't always that way).

Moving to PCIe was not needed (at least yet) in terms of bandwidth for rendering, but it's more scalable, easier to manufacture (since you don't need nearly as many traces on the motherboard), and you can have more than one high-speed slot (whereas putting 2+ AGP ports on a motherboard would be a nightmare due to the wiring). It also offers the capability (at some point, once legacy PCI components are phased out) to have just one connection type for any internal expansion card (which is a big win in terms of standardizing components).

It also offers a *lot* more upstream bandwith (card->CPU) than AGP. This isn't very relevant for 3D video cards (since very little data has to travel the other way, except when SLI is in use), but it is critical for a lot of other components. You can put a RAID drive controller, Gigabit Ethernet card, or HD video capture board in a PCIex16 slot; you can't do that with AGP.

Mathias99

I was saying that there was no performance gain when we had to move from VESA to PCI, just like there isn't from AGP to PCIE. (not anything about how current cards would run on the old stuff)

I was giving examples of how the industry always changes without large improvements, it's just a fact you have to get used to.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: Crazyfool
Besides, not everybody is foolish enough to constantly throw money at these manufacturers for what is at most incrementally improved product.

Let's see: If you don't throw the money, you're stuck with last years hardware. Who was the "fool" again?

As was pointed out earlier in this thread by PC Surgeon, the videocards are not exceeding the 8xAGP bus yet so why make it impossible for 60-70% of the possible buyers to upgrade to the latest videocard?

What he said was irrelevant, because he doesn't decide what the criteria are. The industry has declared AGP dead, what PCSurgeon says doesn't matter to gamers. (and like I said, VESA>PCI>AGP1 were not "upgrades" either, you just had to buy a new board or live with old stuff)

You can trash your system and replace the cpu, mobo, and videocard set every 2 weeks if you want to but some people just want to be able to play games and enjoy their systems rather than tearing them down every week and running benchmarks to measure their e-penis.

:roll:

 

[v8envy]

Originally posted by: Rollo
[
Let's see: If you don't throw the money, you're stuck with last years hardware. Who was the "fool" again?

Problem is, a good portion of that 70% threw money in the last 12-24 months, and have a PC that works more than well enough for everything. The only lacking component is a video processor capable of churning out polygons required by new games. The low end cards in AGP are *not* a solution, they are at best a sidegrade from a 3 year old 9800pro.

'High end' AGP cards are equivalent to midrange PCIe ones, but cost as much as PCIe high end cards.

There are quite a few gamers more than satisfied with their P4 2.8s or faster who would be willing to blow $300 on a video card this year, if they didn't also have to buy a whole new computer to put it in. An AGP bridge chip is dirt cheap, I'm shocked no vendor has figured out there's a vast untapped market for a 7800GT AGP @ $300 they could have all to themselves.

What he said was irrelevant, because he doesn't decide what the criteria are. The industry has declared AGP dead, what PCSurgeon says doesn't matter to gamers. (and like I said, VESA>PCI>AGP1 were not "upgrades" either, you just had to buy a new board or live with old stuff)

The industry can declare what they want. Fact is, people were looking for a product this holiday season, and didn't find it. Some 'settled' on the available 6600GT AGP and ATI's last gen cards, but would have spent more if the product was there for them to buy.

Motherboard-ectomy, while trivial for the hobbyist, is simply NOT an option for the lion's share of the market who buy Dell, HP, Compaq and Gateway.

In the olden days, the performance leap of the obsolete tech + obsolete CPU -> new tech was huge enough to easily justify. The performance leap from a 2.8 intel to a 3200 amd is not perceptible.

 

[NoStateofMind]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: Crazyfool
Besides, not everybody is foolish enough to constantly throw money at these manufacturers for what is at most incrementally improved product.

Let's see: If you don't throw the money, you're stuck with last years hardware. Who was the "fool" again?

As was pointed out earlier in this thread by PC Surgeon, the videocards are not exceeding the 8xAGP bus yet so why make it impossible for 60-70% of the possible buyers to upgrade to the latest videocard?

What he said was irrelevant, because he doesn't decide what the criteria are. The industry has declared AGP dead, what PCSurgeon says doesn't matter to gamers. (and like I said, VESA>PCI>AGP1 were not "upgrades" either, you just had to buy a new board or live with old stuff)

You can trash your system and replace the cpu, mobo, and videocard set every 2 weeks if you want to but some people just want to be able to play games and enjoy their systems rather than tearing them down every week and running benchmarks to measure their e-penis.

:roll:

I guess if it's irrelevent, then 70% of the "market" (thats business code for people) is irrelevent too. So what you are saying is that what I said doesn't matter to gamers? Oh contrare mofrare! Look at how many have posted (who are gamers) that don't like the "industry's" (NVIDIA/ATI) so called "upgrade".

To end, NVIDIA/ATI will have thier way. Point. Blank. Period. We are under the thumb of "THE MAN"

Enjoy NVIDIA/ATI, you have done well to get fat off of us. MOOOOOOO!!!!

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: Crazyfool
Besides, not everybody is foolish enough to constantly throw money at these manufacturers for what is at most incrementally improved product.

Let's see: If you don't throw the money, you're stuck with last years hardware. Who was the "fool" again?

The 'fool 'is the one who spend big bucks to SIDE-grade; or perhaps another 'fool' upgraded his videocard 3 times in one year because he didn't do research. Last years HW is not always practically inferior to next years

As was pointed out earlier in this thread by PC Surgeon, the videocards are not exceeding the 8xAGP bus yet so why make it impossible for 60-70% of the possible buyers to upgrade to the latest videocard?

What he said was irrelevant, because he doesn't decide what the criteria are. The industry has declared AGP dead, what PCSurgeon says doesn't matter to gamers. (and like I said, VESA>PCI>AGP1 were not "upgrades" either, you just had to buy a new board or live with old stuff)

You can trash your system and replace the cpu, mobo, and videocard set every 2 weeks if you want to but some people just want to be able to play games and enjoy their systems rather than tearing them down every week and running benchmarks to measure their e-penis.

:roll:

[/quote]
Screw the industry"s "declarations" . . . it is marketing-driven.

They are losing out - big time - on AGP card sales.

 

[Greenman]

I'm all for new wiz bang hardware, even when the new stuff does nothing better than the old stuff. Why you ask? Because it drives down the price of last years hardware. Let the fellows with with lots of money pay full bore retail plus for new video cards and motherboards. The more ATI and nVidai make off of them the less they need to make from me. That way I can use very good hardware, at very low prices. Yes, I'm cheap, at least with toys, and lets face it, for most of us, computers are toys.

 

[Conky]

I think there is also money to be made from a manufacturer's point of view to offer up decent PCI-E motherboards for 478-pin P4 owners. I looked and there are only 2 marginal(and yet hard to find) boards from non-mainstream mobo companies so a move to PCI-E is more than just a motherboard change(easy enough for me to change) but also a cpu change and that just makes the whole deal too expensive.

I don't think any of us mind true upgrades but "sidegrades" as one guy called it are for the birds. My P4 with HT at 3.45 is not something I NEED to replace. An equivalent AMD cpu is not gonna be cheap. Besides the HT P4 is more than enough cpu for now. So that adds unnecessary to expensive.

All I wanted was a better videocard in the first place so that I could get better frames in COD2. Thankfully, the X850XT-agp is enough to get me by for a while with the games I care to play. I will look at building a new system from the ground up when this current system isn't getting the job done anymore but that's gonna be a while.

 

[CKXP]

Originally posted by: Greenman
I'm all for new wiz bang hardware, even when the new stuff does nothing better than the old stuff. Why you ask? Because it drives down the price of last years hardware. Let the fellows with with lots of money pay full bore retail plus for new video cards and motherboards. The more ATI and nVidai make off of them the less they need to make from me. That way I can use very good hardware, at very low prices. Yes, I'm cheap, at least with toys, and lets face it, for most of us, computers are toys.

AMEN!!!....expensive toys.

 

[Conky]

Originally posted by: CKXP

Originally posted by: Greenman
I'm all for new wiz bang hardware, even when the new stuff does nothing better than the old stuff. Why you ask? Because it drives down the price of last years hardware. Let the fellows with with lots of money pay full bore retail plus for new video cards and motherboards. The more ATI and nVidai make off of them the less they need to make from me. That way I can use very good hardware, at very low prices. Yes, I'm cheap, at least with toys, and lets face it, for most of us, computers are toys.

AMEN!!!....expensive toys.

Yes, and I have other expensives toys to spend money on... guns, knives, cars, my gf, etc. :laugh:

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: apoppin
They are losing out - big time - on AGP card sales.

Hmmm.

nVidia makes record profits and buys competitors with their business model.

Apoppin' settles for low end hardware and hopes he'll get a chance to pay the same $289 for last years 16 pipe 6800GT that his more modern counterparts are getting 20 pipe 7800GTs with second gen PVPs and TAA for.

Who's "losing out" here? nVidia....or Apoppin'? ........damn! these riddles make my head hurt!

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: apoppin
They are losing out - big time - on AGP card sales.

Hmmm.

nVidia makes record profits and buys competitors with their business model.

Apoppin' settles for low end hardware and hopes he'll get a chance to pay the same $289 for last years 16 pipe 6800GT that his more modern counterparts are getting 20 pipe 7800GTs with second gen PVPs and TAA for.

Who's "losing out" here? nVidia....or Apoppin'? ........damn! these riddles make my head hurt!

i dunno . . . you never did answer my other comment about "the fool"?
:Q

and i ain't paying $289 for the GT.
:thumbsdown:

edited

 

[Creig]

Originally posted by: Rollo
This is just the way it is, and has been. The tail does not wag the dog, the industry decides what you'll own, and those who rebel end up buying over priced antiquities.

If that was actually true then every Intel user would be running RDRAM right now. Ultimately it's the consumer who decides which product gets purchased and which doesn't. And those that don't get left by the curbside.

 

[Conky]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: apoppin
They are losing out - big time - on AGP card sales.

Hmmm.

nVidia makes record profits and buys competitors with their business model.

Apoppin' settles for low end hardware and hopes he'll get a chance to pay the same $289 for last years 16 pipe 6800GT that his more modern counterparts are getting 20 pipe 7800GTs with second gen PVPs and TAA for.

Who's "losing out" here? nVidia....or Apoppin'? ........damn! these riddles make my head hurt!

I have a better riddle for you to answer. Why would you be a "fair and balanced" mod of anything given your complete lack of common sense?

P.S. 3dfx was snapping up companies and making record profits at one time too so mentioning Nvidia's business model only proves your love for Nvidia. It's just a videocard company, man.

 

[Paratus]

Originally posted by: Creig

Originally posted by: Rollo
This is just the way it is, and has been. The tail does not wag the dog, the industry decides what you'll own, and those who rebel end up buying over priced antiquities.

If that was actually true then every Intel user would be running RDRAM right now. Ultimately it's the consumer who decides which product gets purchased and which doesn't. And those that don't get left by the curbside.

The other thing to remember is while ATI and NV manufacture Mobos and might like us all to step up some of their partners don't manufacturer mobos - HSI for one. All it takes is one partner to use an existing bridge on a high end part and they will have nice AGP market all to them selves.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Crazyfool

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: apoppin
They are losing out - big time - on AGP card sales.

Hmmm.

nVidia makes record profits and buys competitors with their business model.

Apoppin' settles for low end hardware and hopes he'll get a chance to pay the same $289 for last years 16 pipe 6800GT that his more modern counterparts are getting 20 pipe 7800GTs with second gen PVPs and TAA for.

Who's "losing out" here? nVidia....or Apoppin'? ........damn! these riddles make my head hurt!

I have a better riddle for you to answer. Why would you be a "fair and balanced" mod of anything given your complete lack of common sense?

P.S. 3dfx was snapping up companies and making record profits at one time too so mentioning Nvidia's business model only proves your love for Nvidia. It's just a videocard company, man.

we all know Rollo's relation to nVidia . . . now

At any rate . . .i can answer his riddle . . .

A: by not offering a high end AGP card, nVidia/Ati lose out on my money
[gee, that was easy . . . what do i win? :roll:]

i have an awesome alternative in a NextGen console
:thumbsup:

a cheap AGP x16- or x1700xt xt will suffice for the 'must have' PC games . . . they're getting $150 from me, not $500.

Can't anybody else do the math?

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: apoppin
i dunno . . . you never did answer my other comment about "the fool"?

Perhaps because my ways are apparently incomprehensible to you.

You view computer hardware as something to spend as little as possible on, and settle for as little as possible on.

Your inane little comment about me "upgrading video cards because I hadn't done the proper research" was just further evidence of your being unable to understand my motives.

I don't care if I "waste" money trying different video cards, has nothing whatsoever to to do with me trying to get the best bang per buck to the penny.

Has everything to do with I decided this was a hobby I'd spend a fair amount of money ($1000s per year) on.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Crazyfool

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: apoppin
They are losing out - big time - on AGP card sales.

Hmmm.

nVidia makes record profits and buys competitors with their business model.

Apoppin' settles for low end hardware and hopes he'll get a chance to pay the same $289 for last years 16 pipe 6800GT that his more modern counterparts are getting 20 pipe 7800GTs with second gen PVPs and TAA for.

Who's "losing out" here? nVidia....or Apoppin'? ........damn! these riddles make my head hurt!

I have a better riddle for you to answer. Why would you be a "fair and balanced" mod of anything given your complete lack of common sense?

P.S. 3dfx was snapping up companies and making record profits at one time too so mentioning Nvidia's business model only proves your love for Nvidia. It's just a videocard company, man.

we all know Rollo's relation to nVidia . . . now

Really? What's my relation to nVidia Apoppin'? Going to post some emoticons as "proof"?

At any rate . . .i can answer his riddle . . .

A: by not offering a high end AGP card, nVidia/Ati lose out on my money

I don't think they're too concerned about the money you spend on computer hardware Apoppin', won't pay the rent out in Santa Clara off you.

i have an awesome alternative in a NextGen console
:thumbsup:

Cool- maybe you'll start hanging on XBox forums?

a cheap AGP x16- or x1700xt xt will suffice for the 'must have' PC games . . . they're getting $150 from me, not $500.

There's a SHOCKER. The guy who bought a $150 9800Pro last year is going to buy a $150 X1600XT this year. Wow, wouldn't have seen that one coming!

Can't anybody else do the math?

Maybe they don't want to be console gamers?

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: apoppin
i dunno . . . you never did answer my other comment about "the fool"?

Perhaps because my ways are apparently incomprehensible to you.

"waste" always is

You view computer hardware as something to spend as little as possible on, and settle for as little as possible on.

Dead Wrong[period]. i aim for best bang-for-buck

Your inane little comment about me "upgrading video cards because I hadn't done the proper research" was just further evidence of your being unable to understand my motives.

oh was that comment about you?
. . . now that i think of it, you did get that 6800 and touted it as a major upgrade over a 9800xt . . . when i helped show you how wrong you were, you dumped it on your kid and almost immediatedly upgraded to a 6800GT setup and then another nVidia card in less than 12 months.

I don't care if I "waste" money trying different video cards, has nothing whatsoever to to do with me trying to get the best bang per buck to the penny.

Has everything to do with I decided this was a hobby I'd spend a fair amount of money ($1000s per year) on.

since you ADMIT you don't care how wasteful you are on computer HW - don't judge those of us that are less profligate
:thumbsdown:

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Crazyfool

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: apoppin
They are losing out - big time - on AGP card sales.

Hmmm.

nVidia makes record profits and buys competitors with their business model.

Apoppin' settles for low end hardware and hopes he'll get a chance to pay the same $289 for last years 16 pipe 6800GT that his more modern counterparts are getting 20 pipe 7800GTs with second gen PVPs and TAA for.

Who's "losing out" here? nVidia....or Apoppin'? ........damn! these riddles make my head hurt!

I have a better riddle for you to answer. Why would you be a "fair and balanced" mod of anything given your complete lack of common sense?

P.S. 3dfx was snapping up companies and making record profits at one time too so mentioning Nvidia's business model only proves your love for Nvidia. It's just a videocard company, man.

we all know Rollo's relation to nVidia . . . now

Really? What's my relation to nVidia Apoppin'? Going to post some emoticons as "proof"?

Head cheerleader on ATF

At any rate . . .i can answer his riddle . . .

A: by not offering a high end AGP card, nVidia/Ati lose out on my money

I don't think they're too concerned about the money you spend on computer hardware Apoppin', won't pay the rent out in Santa Clara off you.[/quote]and the other 69.99999999. . . % of gamers are still on AGP . . . They don't make crap off [your] high-end in comparison

i have an awesome alternative in a NextGen console
:thumbsup:

Cool- maybe you'll start hanging on XBox forums?[/quote]No such luck for you [wanna offer me an incentive?] . . . i am here to stay to help you keep things really "Fair and Balanced"

a cheap AGP x16- or x1700xt xt will suffice for the 'must have' PC games . . . they're getting $150 from me, not $500.

There's a SHOCKER. The guy who bought a $150 9800Pro last year is going to buy a $150 X1600XT this year. Wow, wouldn't have seen that one coming![/quote]almost year-before-last . . . its an 'xt' and i'll probably hold out for the x1700xt

Can't anybody else do the math?

Maybe they don't want to be console gamers?

[/quote]maybe they will - nothing wrong with consoles . . . i'll keep my 'antique' to run PC games . . . an O/C'd P4 @ 3.5Ghz and an x1700xt will no doubt run U3 games at my res of 10x7 until i DO decide to upgrade in a year or two . . . and i will not lose out over anything you have [practically speaking]
:thumbsup:

edited

 

[apoppin]

another rumour:Q

I also have heard a very flimsy rumor (meaning, I can neither confirm nor deny any part of it, and only pass it on here because it would be a great story if it were true) that nVidia is considering an AGP version of the GeForce 7800 video card. Will just have to wait and see on this one. I find it difficult to imagine that the video card manufacturers would abandon a market that has clearly not dried up so I will not be surprised to continue to see AGP cards appear for quite awhile.

i am willing to bet that we WILL see x1800 in AGP next year . . . i can hold out for the x1700xt . . . and if ATi [or nVidia] decides to surprise me while i am waiting . . .
:thumbsup:

don't believe the marketing machine's declaration that APG is dead. . . . far from it

 

[NoStateofMind]

AGP isn't dead yet! YAY!