ATi's answer to the 6800GT

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh

Originally posted by: GeneralGrievous

not worth the risk if the 16piped gt is the same price as the 12 pipe x800 pro

Why not? Right now a 12 pipe X800 Pro pretty much matches the performance of a 6800 GT. A 16 pipe X800 Pro for $400 kills the GT.

at stock clock of course it would, is it fair to compare a softmodded x800 pro to a stock 6800gt? You must take into account that a 6800gt will overclock to levels higher than a 6800 ultra extreme, thus killing the softmoded x800 pro
see here

This presumes that retail 6800GTs will overclock that well. This may or may not be a safe assumption.

Preview cards are *notorious* for being poor examples of overclockability. That "6800GT" could easily have been a 6800U that was underclocked and provided as an example of what the performance would be like. Considering the rumors that NVIDIA can't supply Gainward and others with enough 6800U cores that will do 450Mhz reliably on air cooling, the 6800GT may not be a stellar overclocker.

 

[Genx87]

I dont know of many 5900s that didnt overclock to 5900U.

I think it will be safe to say once the card gets through a few production runs it will overclock pretty good out of the box.

 

[VisableAssassin]

Originally posted by: GeneralGrievous
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12443&highlight=

The only games I have seen where the X800 Pro matches or even beats the GT is in games where Nvidia has some obvious performance issues across their entire line.

Nvidia must have a LOT of performance issues then, considering the X800 Pro matches or beats the GT in at least 1/3 of benchmarks.

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.html?i=2044&p=12
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.html?i=2044&p=13
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.html?i=2044&p=16
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.html?i=2044&p=17

There's 4 out of anand's 11 benchmarks, not counting FFXI.

it is still running pretty damn close to neck and neck on BETA drivers vs. ATis more mature drivers.
wait till their driver teams gets off their ass and puts out some drivers that make use of the card then post benches. Untill a retail card hits with mature drivers on the 6800 the benches that are out now are invalid to me...regardless...you can take em as gospel..but ill take em with a grain of salt untill I see the real deal.

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: Genx87
I dont know of many 5900s that didnt overclock to 5900U.

I think it will be safe to say once the card gets through a few production runs it will overclock pretty good out of the box.

Maybe. I'm gonna wait and see, myself.

Also, there's a big difference between a 6800GT overclocking, say, 10-15% (ie, to 6800U speeds) and one overclocking to "levels higher than a 6800 ultra extreme". 475/1250 (where their OCed 6800UE got to) is a 25+% overclock on both the CPU and RAM of a 6800GT (375/500). Even 450/1200 (6800UE speeds) is a 20% overclock on both. Perhaps not impossible, but quite possibly unrealistic. 425/1100 (a 13%/10% overclock, to 6800U speeds) sounds more reasonable to me, although if it is shipping with the same 600Mhz RAM as the Ultra, that would making hitting 1200Mhz on the memory much more feasable.

 

[Schadenfroh]

Originally posted by: Matthias99

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh

Originally posted by: GeneralGrievous

not worth the risk if the 16piped gt is the same price as the 12 pipe x800 pro

Why not? Right now a 12 pipe X800 Pro pretty much matches the performance of a 6800 GT. A 16 pipe X800 Pro for $400 kills the GT.

at stock clock of course it would, is it fair to compare a softmodded x800 pro to a stock 6800gt? You must take into account that a 6800gt will overclock to levels higher than a 6800 ultra extreme, thus killing the softmoded x800 pro
see here

This presumes that retail 6800GTs will overclock that well. This may or may not be a safe assumption.

Preview cards are *notorious* for being poor examples of overclockability. That "6800GT" could easily have been a 6800U that was underclocked and provided as an example of what the performance would be like. Considering the rumors that NVIDIA can't supply Gainward and others with enough 6800U cores that will do 450Mhz reliably on air cooling, the 6800GT may not be a stellar overclocker.

same can be said for this so called softmod for the x800 pro

 

[Lonyo]

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh

Originally posted by: Matthias99

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh

Originally posted by: GeneralGrievous

not worth the risk if the 16piped gt is the same price as the 12 pipe x800 pro

Why not? Right now a 12 pipe X800 Pro pretty much matches the performance of a 6800 GT. A 16 pipe X800 Pro for $400 kills the GT.

at stock clock of course it would, is it fair to compare a softmodded x800 pro to a stock 6800gt? You must take into account that a 6800gt will overclock to levels higher than a 6800 ultra extreme, thus killing the softmoded x800 pro
see here

This presumes that retail 6800GTs will overclock that well. This may or may not be a safe assumption.

Preview cards are *notorious* for being poor examples of overclockability. That "6800GT" could easily have been a 6800U that was underclocked and provided as an example of what the performance would be like. Considering the rumors that NVIDIA can't supply Gainward and others with enough 6800U cores that will do 450Mhz reliably on air cooling, the 6800GT may not be a stellar overclocker.

same can be said for this so called softmod for the x800 pro

Actually I believe it's a hardmod.

 

[Zebo]

I don't know about you Matt, but one of the many reasons I like tech forums and review sites is to maximize my performance for the dollars. A new fast card or processor just released does not do this. You're paying a premium for what essentially they sell similar chips or similar to produce chips for a fraction of the cost. If they had no alternatives I'd have to pay to play, but since there are exciting alternatives I won't be spending $400-$500 on a video card. Sure the LE or 5900 may not OC to thier $400 brethern but you stand a very good shot and it's hella fun to get there at less than half. Otherewise why not just walk into BestBuy or Frys, no leg work required, and say "I want the fastest PC parts" This would include things like x800xt, P4EE, FX53, Atlas15K SCSIs, etc. I consider this a poor allocation of my limited resources plus it's extremly boring. JMO.

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh

Originally posted by: Matthias99

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh

Originally posted by: GeneralGrievous

not worth the risk if the 16piped gt is the same price as the 12 pipe x800 pro

Why not? Right now a 12 pipe X800 Pro pretty much matches the performance of a 6800 GT. A 16 pipe X800 Pro for $400 kills the GT.

at stock clock of course it would, is it fair to compare a softmodded x800 pro to a stock 6800gt? You must take into account that a 6800gt will overclock to levels higher than a 6800 ultra extreme, thus killing the softmoded x800 pro
see here

This presumes that retail 6800GTs will overclock that well. This may or may not be a safe assumption.

Preview cards are *notorious* for being poor examples of overclockability. That "6800GT" could easily have been a 6800U that was underclocked and provided as an example of what the performance would be like. Considering the rumors that NVIDIA can't supply Gainward and others with enough 6800U cores that will do 450Mhz reliably on air cooling, the 6800GT may not be a stellar overclocker.

same can be said for this so called softmod for the x800 pro

Not really. The argument was:

"A modded X800Pro for $400 will perform better than a 6800GT for $400."

Then, the response was:

"Yeah, but the GT will overclock to 'levels higher than a 6800 ultra extreme', so it's better."

Then my reply was:

"The 6800GT may not overclock nearly as well as you're expecting it to, given the yield problems NVIDIA seems to be having."

It's established already that (at least some) retail X800Pro cards can OC to X800XT clocks or better, giving them a significant performance boost. If they also can be modded to have 16 pipes, I would presume they would perform just like an X800XT. I'm not commenting on whether or not they can be modded, just the end result if they are moddable.

As there are no retail 6800 cards of any flavor currently available, anything said about their overclockability is just speculation. OCing results from preview hardware are not always accurate; sometimes the cards given to reviewers are 'cherry-picked' samples that OC much better than most retail cards do, or changes are made to the designs before they hit the street (since preview cards are often based on non-production boards and sometimes even earlier chips). That's my point.

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: Zebo
I don't know about you Matt, but one of the many reasons I like tech forums and review sites is to maximize my performance for the dollars. A new fast card or processor just released does not do this. You're paying a premium for what essentially they sell similar chips or similar to produce chips for a fraction of the cost. If they had no alternatives I'd have to pay to play, but since there are exciting alternatives I won't be spending $400-$500 on a video card. Sure the LE or 5900 may not OC to thier $400 brethern but you stand a very good shot and it's hella fun to get there at less than half.

I like to maximize bang/buck, too, but doing so does not maximize your bang. An overclocked 5900 is still going to be a lot slower than a next-gen card. The argument "Why pay $X for Y performance when I can get Y/2 performance for $X/3?" is flawed, because if you want more than Y/2 performance, you have to spend the extra money.

My point is that, compared to today's high-end retail cards, the price/performance ratio of the new parts is not that much worse. If they were not even twice as fast but cost three or four times as much, that would be a problem (see: P4EE). But they're almost twice as fast (better at some things, worse at others) and cost about twice as much as a current high-end card. In fact, they're probably a much better price/performance ratio than the 'old' 256MB cards (which are still around the $270-$300 range, and offer little to no benefit over a 128MB card).

Otherewise why not just walk into BestBuy or Frys, no leg work required, and say "I want the fastest PC parts" This would include things like x800xt, P4EE, FX53, Atlas15K SCSIs, etc. I consider this a poor allocation of my limited resources plus it's extremly boring. JMO.

I don't do this either, but a) some people have the resources and prefer this, and b) if you want the absolute best performance you can get, you have to buy the high-end parts and pay a premium.

 

[Schadenfroh]

Originally posted by: Matthias99

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh

Originally posted by: Matthias99

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh

Originally posted by: GeneralGrievous

not worth the risk if the 16piped gt is the same price as the 12 pipe x800 pro

Why not? Right now a 12 pipe X800 Pro pretty much matches the performance of a 6800 GT. A 16 pipe X800 Pro for $400 kills the GT.

at stock clock of course it would, is it fair to compare a softmodded x800 pro to a stock 6800gt? You must take into account that a 6800gt will overclock to levels higher than a 6800 ultra extreme, thus killing the softmoded x800 pro
see here

This presumes that retail 6800GTs will overclock that well. This may or may not be a safe assumption.

Preview cards are *notorious* for being poor examples of overclockability. That "6800GT" could easily have been a 6800U that was underclocked and provided as an example of what the performance would be like. Considering the rumors that NVIDIA can't supply Gainward and others with enough 6800U cores that will do 450Mhz reliably on air cooling, the 6800GT may not be a stellar overclocker.

same can be said for this so called softmod for the x800 pro

Not really. The argument was:

"A modded X800Pro for $400 will perform better than a 6800GT for $400."

Then, the response was:

"Yeah, but the GT will overclock to 'levels higher than a 6800 ultra extreme', so it's better."

Then my reply was:

"The 6800GT may not overclock nearly as well as you're expecting it to, given the yield problems NVIDIA seems to be having."

It's established already that (at least some) retail X800Pro cards can OC to X800XT clocks or better, giving them a significant performance boost. If they also can be modded to have 16 pipes, I would presume they would perform just like an X800XT. I'm not commenting on whether or not they can be modded, just the end result if they are moddable.

As there are no retail 6800 cards of any flavor currently available, anything said about their overclockability is just speculation. OCing results from preview hardware are not always accurate; sometimes the cards given to reviewers are 'cherry-picked' samples that OC much better than most retail cards do, or changes are made to the designs before they hit the street (since preview cards are often based on non-production boards and sometimes even earlier chips). That's my point.

more than likely, you will have AIB makers make some that will overclock, for example, rember that asus 4200 that pushed easily past 4600 speeds.

 

[Zebo]

Right now there isn't anything except maybe Far Cry that really pushes my 9800Pro, and so I feel no need to upgrade.
----------------
Actually if you're talking about far cry comparing a retail 9800pro I think the x800xt is a very good value. About 100% more money for 160% more performance.

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
more than likely, you will have AIB makers make some that will overclock, for example, rember that asus 4200 that pushed easily past 4600 speeds.

I repeat:

As there are no retail 6800 cards of any flavor currently available, anything said about their overclockability is just speculation.

 

[Avalon]

the softmod/overclock on the 9800SE is far from certain

70% chance to softmod a Powercolor...those are pretty darn good chances if you ask me. Slap a $20 cooler on the GPU for overclocking and again, you've got pretty decent chances for that as well. If you got a dud card that won't softmod, you could always RMA it, and someone out there who wasn't looking to softmod would benefit from a cheaper, refurbished card. And you'd get your second shot at it. I find taking the gamble is the whole fun of it

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Avalon

the softmod/overclock on the 9800SE is far from certain

70% chance to softmod a Powercolor...those are pretty darn good chances if you ask me. Slap a $20 cooler on the GPU for overclocking and again, you've got pretty decent chances for that as well. If you got a dud card that won't softmod, you could always RMA it, and someone out there who wasn't looking to softmod would benefit from a cheaper, refurbished card. And you'd get your second shot at it. I find taking the gamble is the whole fun of it

Guys with your attiude give OCers a bad name. You should never RMA something that works as advertised. And certainly not something the end user screwed up. These costs, done as a curtosy to get real problem cards out of the hands of consumer, are absorbed by everyone else who buys a card which is a form of theft.

 

[GeneralGrievous]

asus 4200 that pushed easily past 4600 speeds.

An Asus GT won't be $400, try $450 at least. That company overcharges.

Plus consider that a softmodded X800 Pro can still be overclocked, and that the X800 XT beats the 6800 Ultra, extreme or not.

 

[RussianSensation]

I agree that paying $400 for a videocard is a lot.
However, there is no 25-50% increase in performance. X800Pro is 100% faster than 9700Pro period. I've seen benches where it is more than 100% faster. Since 9800Pro is 15% faster than 9700Pro and 9800xt is 15% faster than 9800Pro, X800xt is 100% faster at least than a 9800xt thus putting X800Pro at 70% of the X800xt, which has been pointed out by many review sites. Now on average that puts its performance at about 85% faster than 9800Pro not 25-50% (Zebo). Arguably, we are talking about the greatest increase between any 2 generations for both companies and people are complaining? I am sorry let me introduce you to 25-30% increase of Geforce 4 4600 over Geforce 3 Ti500 and $500 price tag, oh wait, or Geforce 2 ultra over Geforce 2 GTS, or Radeon 9800XT $400 over 9700Pro for $200 just 6 months ago for a mere 30% increase.......no one was complaining.......

We are talking about being able to play ANY game at 1280x1024 4AA/8AF on X800Pro alone. Now lets see Halo, Far Cry do this on a 9800xt? Yes, it is true 9700Pro/5900xt are still excellent cards, but once doom3, half-life 2, stalker and other intense games come out prior to this year's end, they will not be enough to play at resolutions everyone has been playing all the old games at.

Of course, what can be argued is that why buy a videocard now when these games have not come out yet, which is a valid question. So probably, the best decision, would be to buy these cards 3-5 months from now when these 3 outstanding games have arrived and the prices have dropped slightly. But eventually, a 9800Pro will not be enough. There is no point in whining about the new cards being too expensive because these price targets have obviously not been targeted at these customers who are unwilling to pay these high prices just yet. The early adopters and those who want the best will. Just like every other generation/step of cpus, motherboard chipsets, videocards, etc. the best timing to buy a product comes, you just have to wait. Recall XP1700+ JIUHB, P41.8A, Geforce 4 4200, 5900xt, 2.4C, etc. So let's just wait until the next "bargain." Besides, once both companies release their variety of cards, a price war will take place eventually when one decides to offer more incentive for customer to buy their cards.

 

[hysperion]

rma'ing defective cards for reasons like you said avalon is the same thing as stealing.....thanks for making everyone here pay more for their video cards...

 

[Schadenfroh]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: Avalon

the softmod/overclock on the 9800SE is far from certain

70% chance to softmod a Powercolor...those are pretty darn good chances if you ask me. Slap a $20 cooler on the GPU for overclocking and again, you've got pretty decent chances for that as well. If you got a dud card that won't softmod, you could always RMA it, and someone out there who wasn't looking to softmod would benefit from a cheaper, refurbished card. And you'd get your second shot at it. I find taking the gamble is the whole fun of it

Guys with your attiude give OCers a bad name. You should never RMA something that works as advertised. And certainly not something the end user screwed up. These costs, done as a curtosy to get real problem cards out of the hands of consumer, are absorbed by everyone else who buys a card which is a form of theft.

and charging $500 for a top end graphics card is not a form of theft?

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: RussianSensation
I agree that paying $400 for a videocard is a lot.
However, there is no 25-50% increase in performance. X800Pro is 100% faster than 9700Pro period. I've seen benches where it is more than 100% faster. Since 9800Pro is 15% faster than 9700Pro and 9800xt is 15% faster than 9800Pro, X800xt is 100% faster at least than a 9800xt thus putting X800Pro at 70% of the X800xt, which has been pointed out by many review sites. Now on average that puts its performance at about 85% faster than 9800Pro not 25-50% (Zebo). Arguably, we are talking about the greatest increase between any 2 generations for both companies and people are complaining? I am sorry let me introduce you to 25-30% increase of Geforce 4 4600 over Geforce 3 Ti500 and $500 price tag, oh wait, or Geforce 2 ultra over Geforce 2 GTS, or Radeon 9800XT $400 over 9700Pro for $200 just 6 months ago for a mere 30% increase.......no one was complaining.......

We are talking about being able to play ANY game at 1280x1024 4AA/8AF on X800Pro alone. Now lets see Halo, Far Cry do this on a 9800xt? Yes, it is true 9700Pro/5900xt are still excellent cards, but once doom3, half-life 2, stalker and other intense games come out prior to this year's end, they will not be enough to play at resolutions everyone has been playing all the old games at.

Of course, what can be argued is that why buy a videocard now when these games have not come out yet, which is a valid question. So probably, the best decision, would be to buy these cards 3-5 months from now when these 3 outstanding games have arrived and the prices have dropped slightly. But eventually, a 9800Pro will not be enough. There is no point in whining about the new cards being too expensive because these price targets have obviously not been targeted at these customers who are unwilling to pay these high prices just yet. The early adopters and those who want the best will. Just like every other generation/step of cpus, motherboard chipsets, videocards, etc. the best timing to buy a product comes, you just have to wait. Recall XP1700+ JIUHB, P41.8A, Geforce 4 4200, 5900xt, 2.4C, etc. So let's just wait until the next "bargain." Besides, once both companies release their variety of cards, a price war will take place eventually when one decides to offer more incentive for customer to buy their cards.

Ya russian your on to something here. I did note how, in Far Cry, the x800xt is 160% faster than 9800pro while will only cost about 100% more money. However taken as an aggregate, over all benches from all reviewes it's no where near that good of a value which is why I guessed 20-50% (games like eve, unreal, wolf it's less than 20%other games it's above 100%) .

Anyway I agree this is quantum type leap for graphics but I'll still wait, hopefully more will which will automatically force these two to set pricing what demand say.

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh

Originally posted by: Matthias99

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh

Originally posted by: Matthias99

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh

Originally posted by: GeneralGrievous

not worth the risk if the 16piped gt is the same price as the 12 pipe x800 pro

Why not? Right now a 12 pipe X800 Pro pretty much matches the performance of a 6800 GT. A 16 pipe X800 Pro for $400 kills the GT.

at stock clock of course it would, is it fair to compare a softmodded x800 pro to a stock 6800gt? You must take into account that a 6800gt will overclock to levels higher than a 6800 ultra extreme, thus killing the softmoded x800 pro
see here

This presumes that retail 6800GTs will overclock that well. This may or may not be a safe assumption.

Preview cards are *notorious* for being poor examples of overclockability. That "6800GT" could easily have been a 6800U that was underclocked and provided as an example of what the performance would be like. Considering the rumors that NVIDIA can't supply Gainward and others with enough 6800U cores that will do 450Mhz reliably on air cooling, the 6800GT may not be a stellar overclocker.

same can be said for this so called softmod for the x800 pro

Not really. The argument was:

"A modded X800Pro for $400 will perform better than a 6800GT for $400."

Then, the response was:

"Yeah, but the GT will overclock to 'levels higher than a 6800 ultra extreme', so it's better."

Then my reply was:

"The 6800GT may not overclock nearly as well as you're expecting it to, given the yield problems NVIDIA seems to be having."

It's established already that (at least some) retail X800Pro cards can OC to X800XT clocks or better, giving them a significant performance boost. If they also can be modded to have 16 pipes, I would presume they would perform just like an X800XT. I'm not commenting on whether or not they can be modded, just the end result if they are moddable.

As there are no retail 6800 cards of any flavor currently available, anything said about their overclockability is just speculation. OCing results from preview hardware are not always accurate; sometimes the cards given to reviewers are 'cherry-picked' samples that OC much better than most retail cards do, or changes are made to the designs before they hit the street (since preview cards are often based on non-production boards and sometimes even earlier chips). That's my point.

more than likely, you will have AIB makers make some that will overclock, for example, rember that asus 4200 that pushed easily past 4600 speeds.

Or the leadtek 5950 that did 590mhz core

 

[Avalon]

Guys with your attiude give OCers a bad name. You should never RMA something that works as advertised. And certainly not something the end user screwed up. These costs, done as a curtosy to get real problem cards out of the hands of consumer, are absorbed by everyone else who buys a card which is a form of theft.

I would never RMA a card that I screwed up by OCing or any other means as deemed by my own fault. I've never RMA'd a card regardless. It was my assumption that cards that were returned to places such as Newegg that had no problems would be resold as refurbs, as a benefit to the consumer. If I'm wrong, I must be the worst person in the world. Yep.

 

[VisableAssassin]

Originally posted by: GeneralGrievous

asus 4200 that pushed easily past 4600 speeds.

An Asus GT won't be $400, try $450 at least. That company overcharges.

Plus consider that a softmodded X800 Pro can still be overclocked, and that the X800 XT beats the 6800 Ultra, extreme or not.

first off it isnt a soft mod...its a hard mod...there is a large difference.
and a $450 dollar Asus GT is sitll cheaper than a $400 x800 with a botched mod that causes you to buy a second one.....if you RMA it after a botched mod you should be castrated and not allow to reproduce.
now this is coming from the guy that was hard modding slot A athlons...I tortched 2 athlon 850's and bought a third...very god dman expensive back in the day....but I NEVER RMA'd one that i broke.
SO ill take my $450 dollar Asus thank you much.

 

[YurDad]

Anyone that read all the reviews that came out on the cards know they are close. Save the FUD.

What I would like to see is the cards benched with both of them using their "adaptive" filtering and AA/AF using rtool to force trilinear filtering on all stages of the Ati card.

I'd rather buy a card from a company that already gives me the 16pipes for a decent price than one that forces me to try to mod/possibly destroy my card.

 

[MichaelZ]

Originally posted by: ronnn
I am waiting for the soft mod. I expect ATI to discover a soft mod when competition heats up. :beer:

What r u on? That's the last thing ATI will discover because they DON'T want you to get a free upgrade. Especially one that's as simple as a softmod in the past. This is only the first successful hard mod we've seen. It's not as simple as some people seem to think. If Xbit labs failed trying twice then the chance of first unlocking the extra 4 pipes and having them being in full working order is a very slim chance.

 

[Dman877]

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
not worth the risk if the 16piped gt is the same price as the 12 pipe x800 pro