ATI tries to downplay SLI

[Insomniak]

I haven't crowned it king of anything. I am particularly interested in seeing what it's capable of, and I can see definite potential if what Nvidia says about it is true.

However, what Nvidia cays about it is almost certainly not true, which is why this is all speculation, and why I'm waiting for benchmarks before taking any action. I really have no reason to upgrade at the moment anyway, as Doom 3 runs fine on my current set up, and the next game I have my eye on is Half Life 2. Until I hit something I can't get to run at reasonable visual levels, I see no reason to build...so the wait and see approach isn't really giving me any problems.

I still think SLI is an advantage to have though. Regardless of anything else, it shows that Nvidia is willing to push into new areas and innovate, and that's always a good sign IMO. We need companies pushing the envelope forward still, until we reach photorealistic, completely physics based gameplay.


Then, on to VR. But that's another thread.

 

[Insomniak]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM
while it can certainly be argued i might be overly critical of sli at this early juncture, at the same time there's been nothing revealed which deserves all the adolation nv fans seem to want to adorn it. simple logic shows this is an expensive solution (at least at this point) that only makes sense in specific circumstances.

This is an interesting point, and I have to wonder if we might see "SLI packs" from add in board partners, akin to "dual channel RAM packs" you can purchase from Geil, Corsair, and others...in effect, two cards that are sold at a reduced price per card so long as you buy both as a package...

I have to think that if this feature does do what NV says it will that the market will find a way to take advantage of it....


After all, Dual Channel RAM seems strikingly similar to SLI, and people are none too shy about building setups that support it...

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

Originally posted by: apoppin


while it can certainly be argued i might be overly critical of sli at this early juncture, at the same time there's been nothing revealed which deserves all the adolation nv fans seem to want to adorn it. simple logic shows this is an expensive solution (at least at this point) that only makes sense in specific circumstances.

did you read my upgrade plans? . . . i will pay no premium of having the sli OPTION in an Nforce4 MB (getting an A-64, anyway) . . . by next year, the 6800u will be relatively cheap . .. adding a 2nd one a year later when it is dirt-cheap might save a complete upgrade cycle (or 2)

again, you are at one extreme of the discussion and i am at the other . .. this makes it interesting.

but i am dropping out now as i have nothing further to say without some serious repetition.

and i look forward to discussing further when more is known.

no "adoration" . . . just "good timing", i think

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
Yes sir, you have made that clear to me in the past, and while I still readily concede the point, I find it difficult to understand why you don't also see the good sense in expanding sales by expanding the the number of groups being marketed to The fact that the workstation market benefits is the primary justification for it's existance, making sales outside of that market is a sweet ancillary benefit though, don't you think?

well that depends on what we're debating. if you're saying that sli is the answer to all our performance concerns (as many people are trying to make it appear), then i completely disagree. the topic was ati's pr, which i don't think is unreasonable at all, and certainly a logical thing for them to do.

if you're saying it's good to expand the market and offer sli, i wouldn't argue that point.

my point all along (long before the ati pr) has been it's an expensive option that will cater to a very small (niche) segment of the market, and given the information we have at this time, the benefits do not outweigh the negatives as far as a gaming solution is concerned. it's a "win at all costs" solution which i disagree with in principle - i prefer working smarter, not harder. give me something that's fast, thermal and power efficient, etc. "more" is not always more....

i'm just not the type of person who easily buys into hype, preferring to look at things from a more objective view. at this time i think it's a cool idea that won't benefit a great deal of people, and is more successful as a marketing tool/technology tool than as a viable solution. based on logic using the information available, i don't think my stand is unreasonable at this juncture.

 

[Insomniak]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM
i prefer working smarter, not harder. give me something that's fast, thermal and power efficient, etc. "more" is not always more....

Working smarter, not harder, backfires a lot I think.


I'll leave that out of context so someone asks how, possibly incredulously.

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: Insomniak
Uh, yes it does if we're talking PCIE flavor.

And I need a new motherboard, regardless, as I'm on a two year old Socket A beast right now. It's not like I'm not in the market for one right now.

but i'm not. i don't need a pcie mb to enjoy the performance of my nv40 (or r420 for that matter). we're talking costs of upgrades, and a single card solution doesn't require pcie - an sli solution does, and therefore must be included in the cost equation of the sli setup.

What's mediocre about it? the 6600GT is supposedly 20% faster than a 9800 Pro, which itself is more than fast enough to play everything out there.

When the performance becomes mediocre is precisely when you buy the second half of your SLI setup.

it's medoicre compared to the performance of an nv40/r420. if you just want to get by, an r3xx or nv35/38 will play d3 just fine.

Everything WE'VE stated. I thought it was obvious we were talking in theory here?

well, in theory we could say that r500 will kick sli'd nv40's ass, but that wouldn't necessarily be logical, would it?

Indeed, and this is the big if. If in fact they don't get the performance gains they're talking about, then SLI is all but useless to the desktop user. Workstations will love it, but we'll keep buying our single cards.

which i believe is what the likely case will be. not the only conclusion, but to me the more reasonable one.

Same, but speaking on the assumption (Ass U Me) that the numbers being bandied about are accurate (which they probably aren't, but who knows)....

well, nvidia has certainly delivered on all it's promises in the past, haven't they (and the same could be said for ati)?

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

Originally posted by: apoppin


while it can certainly be argued i might be overly critical of sli at this early juncture, at the same time there's been nothing revealed which deserves all the adolation nv fans seem to want to adorn it. simple logic shows this is an expensive solution (at least at this point) that only makes sense in specific circumstances.

did you read my upgrade plans? . . . i will pay no premium of having the sli OPTION in an Nforce4 MB (getting an A-64, anyway) . . . by next year, the 6800u will be relatively cheap . .. adding a 2nd one a year later when it is dirt-cheap might save a complete upgrade cycle (or 2)

again, you are at one extreme of the discussion and i am at the other . .. this makes it interesting.

but i am dropping out now as i have nothing further to say without some serious repetition.

and i look forward to discussing further when more is known.

no "adoration" . . . just "good timing", i think

yea, i did read it. again, you're assuming sli is indeed 2x as fast (and bug free as well), and at that same time assuming that a viable alternative (a powerful, single card solution without the cost, heat, noise, power and complexity of an sli solution) will not be available. those assumptions are baseless, and i simply don't see it as a reasonable argument at this point in time.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

CaiNaM,

The FX and EE are no different than SLI will be, fast, expensive, and sold in relatively small numbers. Yet we have members with both platforms despite the small gain they hold over less expensive versions. Early adoption+flagship product=hefty membership fee to join the exclusive club. OK, we all agree on that, now move on please :laugh:

give me something that's fast, thermal and power efficient, etc. "more" is not always more....

Then perhaps you can help AMD/INTEL/nV/ATi with their difficulties accomplishing all those things since SOI, strained Silicon, and low-K Dielectric@the current process sizes are giving them some serious headaches Packaging technology is beginning to lag and unless things change rapidly your "preference" will simply not be very feasible for them to accomodate. You seem to wave away these problems or simply overlook them, but they are real concerns and the primary reason dual-cores and multiple graphics card arrays are being pursued by 3 of the 4 right now. I'd go as far as to say ATi better get on-board before they end up being towed behind in a dingy, that or have answers to the problems the others do not.

 

[Insomniak]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM
but i'm not. i don't need a pcie mb to enjoy the performance of my nv40 (or r420 for that matter). we're talking costs of upgrades, and a single card solution doesn't require pcie - an sli solution does, and therefore must be included in the cost equation of the sli setup.

Not must be - can be. In my situation, like I said, it's a forgone cost anyway. And while you have a point in the fact that the motherboard is an extra cost now, what about a year from now when there is no transition from AGP to PCIE? Will SLI suddenly be more viable then, since the motherboard cost isn't an issue to anyone, regardless of circumstance?

Originally posted by: CaiNaM
it's medoicre compared to the performance of an nv40/r420. if you just want to get by, an r3xx or nv35/38 will play d3 just fine.

Well of course it's mediocre compared to them - it's the mid-range version of those cores...that's also why it costs less...

Originally posted by: CaiNaM
well, in theory we could say that r500 will kick sli'd nv40's ass, but that wouldn't necessarily be logical, would it?

That's not a theory, that's listing possibility. The connotation of theory (albeit not the technical definition, but the connotation) is that there is some data suggesting a given view might be the case.

Logic has nothing to do with this right now. We can't say "X is the case, so logically Y" - the best we can get is "X has been the case in the past, Y is the unverified situation, so P,Q,R,T, and H are all possible outcomes."

Originally posted by: CaiNaM
which i believe is what the likely case will be. not the only conclusion, but to me the more reasonable one.

Well I'm not disputing what you choose to believe, but since we have no concrete and impartial data, it's also quite reasonable to conclude otherwise.

Originally posted by: CaiNaM
well, nvidia has certainly delivered on all it's promises in the past, haven't they (and the same could be said for ati)?

Hence why I have been very vocal about why all my statements hinge on that claim being fact. If it's not, I can't be held responsible for inaccuracy of my conjecture - I was working with faulty data.

In effect, I was saying "this could happen based on semi-credible data. Take it with a grain of salt."

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Insomniak,

Mr. Spock would be impressed

 

[Rage187]

good stuff Insomniak.

 

[Drayvn]

SLI is only a nVidia thing right?

And if it is, then we can only use it with nVidia boards... and so if nVidia make a bad board (not saying they will) then arent u pretty screwed?

The Alienware array sounds more inviting as u can use any kind of GPU, id rather get that than get something which can only run one type of card...

Also, we all know that AMD and ATi are both working on the Xbox 2 right, AMD are putting multicore processors into the Xbox 2, do u think since they are both working together that ATi might have something up their sleeves, by working with AMD (which seem to be the front runner in CPU technology).

ATi have always been known not to tell us something until someone finds it and then they confirm it, like geometry instancing, how well 2.0b can do and stuff like that...

Well anyway, what do u guys think about AMD and ATi sharing technology? Maybe ATi might have a viable alternative to SLI, maybe not?

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Drayvn,

The brief write-up on the front page states VIA is working on a SLi supporting chipset of their own in the K8T890pro Text

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Drayvn
SLI is only a nVidia thing right?

And if it is, then we can only use it with nVidia boards... and so if nVidia make a bad board (not saying they will) then arent u pretty screwed?

The Alienware array sounds more inviting as u can use any kind of GPU, id rather get that than get something which can only run one type of card...

Also, we all know that AMD and ATi are both working on the Xbox 2 right, AMD are putting multicore processors into the Xbox 2, do u think since they are both working together that ATi might have something up their sleeves, by working with AMD (which seem to be the front runner in CPU technology).

ATi have always been known not to tell us something until someone finds it and then they confirm it, like geometry instancing, how well 2.0b can do and stuff like that...

Well anyway, what do u guys think about AMD and ATi sharing technology? Maybe ATi might have a viable alternative to SLI, maybe not?

yes they do have multi-chip function built-into the r300 . . . it is not sli . . . ati is not saying ANYthing about it except to downplay it . . . 4 now.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER

WTF?

ROTFL

Considering you use fifty emoticons in every post, use caps so much it's painful to read, and reiterate the same point over and over, you might want to STFU now

Good luck with that one Punisher, getting Amoppin to STFU is like asking the sun not to set. You can ask, but it's not likely.

Your points were valid.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER

WTF?

ROTFL

Considering you use fifty emoticons in every post, use caps so much it's painful to read, and reiterate the same point over and over, you might want to STFU now

Good luck with that one Punisher, getting Amoppin to STFU is like asking the sun not to set. You can ask, but it's not likely.

Your points were valid.

Be nice! Apoppin is actually a very cool cat *wolf anyways *, he is just stubborn like yourself You guys would get along great if you weren't so much alike me thinks....

 

[Drayvn]

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
Drayvn,

The brief write-up on the front page states VIA is working on a SLi supporting chipset of their own in the K8T890pro Text

Ok cool, i stand corrected

 

[SickBeast]

To me there are two important issues here:

1. SLI is a feature which nVidia has and ATi does not have ATM.

2. SLI is not a very important feature for a vast majority of users.

I don't know who in their right mind would spend $1000 on graphics cards, then another $100+ on a massive PSU, especially considering how the current high end cards perform in games like Doom 3. All the heat generated by these cards would be enormous, coupled with huge power requirements. I would honestly be uncomfortable having my system draw that much power.

The argument that SLI allows you to have next-gen performance right now is valid, however I fail to see the point. If your monitor's maximum resolution is 1600x1200 @ 75hz, then what is the point of sustaining more than 75FPS at that resolution? Bragging rights?

I suppose someone could buy a mid-end card, then add another in SLI which would allow them to match a 6800U, but again, why not just buy a 6800U to begin with? Doubling your power requirements doesn't make sense to me. Even if I had a card which could enable SLI and wanted to upgrade, I would more than likely sell the current card and buy something faster. If you buy a graphics card today, I guarantee you there will be something considerably faster within 6 months of your purchase. Think about it.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER

WTF?

ROTFL

Considering you use fifty emoticons in every post, use caps so much it's painful to read, and reiterate the same point over and over, you might want to STFU now

Good luck with that one Punisher, getting Amoppin to STFU is like asking the sun not to set. You can ask, but it's not likely.

Your points were valid.

Be nice! Apoppin is actually a very cool cat *wolf anyways *, he is just stubborn like yourself You guys would get along great if you weren't so much alike me thinks....

Aarrgh.

Likened to Apoppin', he of the "I don't care about the benchmarks posted on this site and others, if eVGAs marketing team says the 6800NU is at least 12% faster than a 9800XT, it's 12% faster at best" posted 3,294 times in multiple forums.

(not to mention the "Buy your son another 512MB RAM and a 9800Pro for the Doom3 goodness!" infamy)

Pwned by DaPunisher.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: SickBeast
To me there are two important issues here:

1. SLI is a feature which nVidia has and ATi does not have ATM.

2. SLI is not a very important feature for a vast majority of users.

I don't know who in their right mind would spend $1000 on graphics cards, then another $100+ on a massive PSU, especially considering how the current high end cards perform in games like Doom 3. All the heat generated by these cards would be enormous, coupled with huge power requirements. I would honestly be uncomfortable having my system draw that much power.

The argument that SLI allows you to have next-gen performance right now is valid, however I fail to see the point. If your monitor's maximum resolution is 1600x1200 @ 75hz, then what is the point of sustaining more than 75FPS at that resolution? Bragging rights?

I suppose someone could buy a mid-end card, then add another in SLI which would allow them to match a 6800U, but again, why not just buy a 6800U to begin with? Doubling your power requirements doesn't make sense to me. Even if I had a card which could enable SLI and wanted to upgrade, I would more than likely sell the current card and buy something faster. If you buy a graphics card today, I guarantee you there will be something considerably faster within 6 months of your purchase. Think about it.

The performance remains to be seen Sickbeast, but 2 6800GTS should far outclass a single 6800U or X800Xt PE. If the claims of 70-90% improvement are true, two GTS would own everything but two Us.

Even 2 NUs might outclass a U with 24 pipes and half the workload on the RAM?

 

[Drayvn]

Originally posted by: SickBeast
To me there are two important issues here:

1. SLI is a feature which nVidia has and ATi does not have ATM.

2. SLI is not a very important feature for a vast majority of users.

I don't know who in their right mind would spend $1000 on graphics cards, then another $100+ on a massive PSU, especially considering how the current high end cards perform in games like Doom 3. All the heat generated by these cards would be enormous, coupled with huge power requirements. I would honestly be uncomfortable having my system draw that much power.

The argument that SLI allows you to have next-gen performance right now is valid, however I fail to see the point. If your monitor's maximum resolution is 1600x1200 @ 75hz, then what is the point of sustaining more than 75FPS at that resolution? Bragging rights?

I suppose someone could buy a mid-end card, then add another in SLI which would allow them to match a 6800U, but again, why not just buy a 6800U to begin with? Doubling your power requirements doesn't make sense to me. Even if I had a card which could enable SLI and wanted to upgrade, I would more than likely sell the current card and buy something faster. If you buy a graphics card today, I guarantee you there will be something considerably faster within 6 months of your purchase. Think about it.

Exactly what i was thinking, if u have SLI, u buy a card which is mid ranged, then u think hmm later ill buy another mid ranged, and so uve spent about $500 on both cards, when u could have sold the first one and could have bought a real uber GPU and saved half the cost!

But as u said, u can wait to upgrade by putting another card in, then in fact ur getting a more up to date card which is doing more work than ur older card, and how about new technology also?

Half ur screen is using DX9 while the other half is doing DX10, that would be a bit crappy wouldnt it? ud have to change ur WHOLE set up to keep up to date, while on the other hand u can just buy one uber powerful card.

Also, with SLI, it give a percentage to each card to do however much of the screen, its not strictly 50.50, so again if u buy both ur cards 6 months apart, then ur older GPU would be doing less work and ur newer more powerful card for which it is the same price than 6 months ago for ur other GPU. It would be taking the brunt of the performance hit, so in fact ur performance would drop dramatically wouldnt it?

(I hope u guys understand what i just said above...)

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: SickBeast
To me there are two important issues here:

1. SLI is a feature which nVidia has and ATi does not have ATM.

2. SLI is not a very important feature for a vast majority of users.

I don't know who in their right mind would spend $1000 on graphics cards, then another $100+ on a massive PSU, especially considering how the current high end cards perform in games like Doom 3. All the heat generated by these cards would be enormous, coupled with huge power requirements. I would honestly be uncomfortable having my system draw that much power.

The argument that SLI allows you to have next-gen performance right now is valid, however I fail to see the point. If your monitor's maximum resolution is 1600x1200 @ 75hz, then what is the point of sustaining more than 75FPS at that resolution? Bragging rights?

I suppose someone could buy a mid-end card, then add another in SLI which would allow them to match a 6800U, but again, why not just buy a 6800U to begin with? Doubling your power requirements doesn't make sense to me. Even if I had a card which could enable SLI and wanted to upgrade, I would more than likely sell the current card and buy something faster. If you buy a graphics card today, I guarantee you there will be something considerably faster within 6 months of your purchase. Think about it.

The performance remains to be seen Sickbeast, but 2 6800GTS should far outclass a single 6800U or X800Xt PE. If the claims of 70-90% improvement are true, two GTS would own everything but two Us.

Even 2 NUs might outclass a U with 24 pipes and half the workload on the RAM?

You just proved my point. Two NU's would cost around $600, which is more than a 6800U. Even if they were to match the performace, they would not be worth it. They would have to be 15-20% faster to even be considered viable. It's possible but it's a stretch. I would imagine that the memory would be a serious limitation.

I'm not doubting that the performance is there and that it's a very powerful feature. I'm just saying that it makes no sense for a huge majority of users. I owned a Voodoo2 card and upgraded to a Voodoo3 instead of buying a second one. The performance would have been the same either way, but I didn't want to tie up 3 slots and draw all that power. The current situation is basically exactly the same. By the time people will be in desperation to upgrade their 6800U's, there will be something better to upgrade to. Purchasing low-end cards for the sole purpose of SLI is very silly seeing as generally performance of videocards increases fairly linearly with the amount of money you spend. The only real exceptions are the insane cards like the 6800UE.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Drayvn,

I see your perspective, but here's another angle for you to consider. Let's pretend that all the hardware needed to run SLi shows up tomorrow. I buy the board, CPU, and 2 6800GTs and SLi them. It will ost likely be over a year minimum before new cards show up that can match or exceed thre performance. So for that whole year I have next gen performance right now. It's a better investment than an EE or FX system for about the same cost. Certainly I paid to play, but I got a better performance boost than other ludicrously expensive hardware solutions like an FX or EE. No matter when the next gen hits, if SLi is anoption and I pony up for it when the new gen hits, I get next gen or close to it, performance a year or more before that generation of card is even available. That's attractive to some of us, that's all

 

[Drayvn]

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
Drayvn,

I see your perspective, but here's another angle for you to consider. Let's pretend that all the hardware needed to run SLi shows up tomorrow. I buy the board, CPU, and 2 6800GTs and SLi them. It will ost likely be over a year minimum before new cards show up that can match or exceed thre performance. So for that whole year I have next gen performance right now. It's a better investment than an EE or FX system for about the same cost. Certainly I paid to play, but I got a better performance boost than other ludicrously expensive hardware solutions like an FX or EE. No matter when the next gen hits, if SLi is anoption and I pony up for it when the new gen hits, I get next gen or close to it, performance a year or more before that generation of card is even available. That's attractive to some of us, that's all

But wouldnt that be financially detrimental to nVidia, as they will have to try and surpass 2 6800U even more now?

And also wouldnt SLI make the high end cards pretty useless, as as u say, u can buy 2 of the cheaper ones and have a great package? Then there wouldnt be a need for a performance crown, unless its starts to be used in SLI format?

 

[SickBeast]

I can't see any use for two 6800GT's in SLI ATM. Videocards have got to be the *worst* investment; they depreciate faster than any other computer component AFAIK. How you could reccomend such an extravagent setup is beyond me to be honest. At least with a faster CPU all of your apps will run faster. Beyond a certain point, graphics performance becomes a moot point.

*Edited to avoid PUNISHMENT*