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ATI to beat Geforce 3?
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sure it will beat the Geforce 3, when they release the thing 5 - 6 months down the road..the mere appearance of a Radeon SE (Ultra) does not bode well for the next generation part...sounds like a Geforce 2 Ultra fiasco all over again...things prolly aint taping out like they should over at ATI.
nateholtrop
Diamond Member
this would seriously suck nvidia..rock!
Nate
Nate
I ran a hercules geforce ddr for quite a while, was happy with it, games always worked.. drivers were updated every month or so it seems😛(win98se/me/2000) I passed my geforce to a sibling and got a radeon, it works ok i guess, but the drivers are crappy compared to nvidia's.. not many updates from what i see, and more problems in games/crashes. hard to complain with the price being so low.
Well, things dont look all that positive for ATI in my opinion. If you dont know why I say this, just think of how much technology nvidia bought from 3dfx, along with their staff, plus their own staffs, plus their rate of execution, ATI will have a REALLY hard time going against nvidia. ATI's only 'weapon' is their pricing - low, which isnt all that good for long term really.
ATI have about 80 millions in cash remaining on their balance sheet. They recently cashed out Broadcom shares, so they should have little more than that. While much more financially stable than 3dfx, they still losing money at fast rate.
nVIDIA, on the other hand, is loaded with cash (over 800 millions), and "industry darling" today. While others tech companies announcing profit warnings, nVIDIA grows at fast rate and consistenly beats expectations.
Of course, balance sheet only tells part of the story 😉
Leon
nVIDIA, on the other hand, is loaded with cash (over 800 millions), and "industry darling" today. While others tech companies announcing profit warnings, nVIDIA grows at fast rate and consistenly beats expectations.
Of course, balance sheet only tells part of the story 😉
Leon
BFG10K
Lifer
Patrick Palm:
Intel are on their way down from the mountain
Just because the Pentium 4 can't beat the competition on a clock for clock basis? Come on. Intel's not going anywhere anytime soon.
and Microsoft, well, too many people run their W2K or ME and complain about their HW when their computer hangs,
Funny. Windows 98SE is rock solid and I'm running the "russian" nVidia drivers, as you put it. I'll admit they have minor Start Menu corruption problems but nothing that affects my system's stability.
As for Windows 2000, a properly set up system will never crash.
sooner or later everyone will find out that there is a cheaper (FREE!) and way better alternative, LINUX!!
🙄
An alternative that can't run anything and has a POS UI. People make fun of Macs because they have such a small amount of software for them. Well guess what? Macs have more software than Linux does.
Intel are on their way down from the mountain
Just because the Pentium 4 can't beat the competition on a clock for clock basis? Come on. Intel's not going anywhere anytime soon.
and Microsoft, well, too many people run their W2K or ME and complain about their HW when their computer hangs,
Funny. Windows 98SE is rock solid and I'm running the "russian" nVidia drivers, as you put it. I'll admit they have minor Start Menu corruption problems but nothing that affects my system's stability.
As for Windows 2000, a properly set up system will never crash.
sooner or later everyone will find out that there is a cheaper (FREE!) and way better alternative, LINUX!!
🙄
An alternative that can't run anything and has a POS UI. People make fun of Macs because they have such a small amount of software for them. Well guess what? Macs have more software than Linux does.
PCResources
Banned
Ben...
I have been doing this for more than 15 years now, i have built and installed more than 10000 computers, and tested a whole lot more of them and i have personally designed systems for the very high-end... I have put together multi-million dollar mainframes, i have done some work on military systems... So i think i know a little bit more about this than your average user.
When it comes to bugs there are a whole lot of them in every product ever released from MS, i will never forget the winsock-SP6 problem that caused so many problems for the VALTO users, actually, why were there ever any need to ship SEVEN service packs (and hundreds of hotfixes) for a bug free OS? And let's not forget that the IE browser is part of the OS, so every problem with that browser is an OS problem (security leaks is one of the major prolems).
I do think that your choice of motherboards is a good one.
<< Just because the Pentium 4 can't beat the competition on a clock for clock basis? Come on. Intel's not going anywhere anytime soon. >>
I didn't mean that Intel will go away anytime soon, and in fact, the P4 is one of the better CPU's i have seen lately. BUT, Intel is announcing profit warnings, AMD is prospering, increasing their profit every month of the year. AMD is going up, Intel is going down.
<< Funny. Windows 98SE is rock solid and I'm running the "russian" nVidia drivers, as you put it. I'll admit they have minor Start Menu corruption problems but nothing that affects my system's stabilit >>
Well, i am glad that your system is stable, i have found NVidia drivers to be totally worthless, of course, this is during my testing phases, some will not complete with NVidia drivers.
<< As for Windows 2000, a properly set up system will never crash. >>
I will not even go into that comment, because W2K is a collection of bugfixes, already updated with no less than two major bugfix packs. MS did a major mistake here, you see, many of the problems with W2K were never fix during the testing phases, they just made workarounds for them, not a very good solution.
<< An alternative that can't run anything and has a POS UI. People make fun of Macs because they have such a small amount of software for them. Well guess what? Macs have more software than Linux does. >>
Well, first of all, comparing the MAC to linux is just stupid, why? Mac's lost a lot of their market because of high pricing, i don't see that happening with LINUX. Which UI are you talking about, there are many of them which are looking very much like windows, are they the shi*ty ones? Actually, there are enough GUI's for LINUX that will make it look like MAC, W3.1 W98 or whatever you want. Sure there are not a big bunch of programs for LINUX, but there are many that are very good, StarOffice is a great program and you cannot beat the price, Corel have made their contributions to Linux, and there are some great games for Linux too these days, Q3, UT and many more.
Patrick Palm
PC Resources
I have been doing this for more than 15 years now, i have built and installed more than 10000 computers, and tested a whole lot more of them and i have personally designed systems for the very high-end... I have put together multi-million dollar mainframes, i have done some work on military systems... So i think i know a little bit more about this than your average user.
When it comes to bugs there are a whole lot of them in every product ever released from MS, i will never forget the winsock-SP6 problem that caused so many problems for the VALTO users, actually, why were there ever any need to ship SEVEN service packs (and hundreds of hotfixes) for a bug free OS? And let's not forget that the IE browser is part of the OS, so every problem with that browser is an OS problem (security leaks is one of the major prolems).
I do think that your choice of motherboards is a good one.
<< Just because the Pentium 4 can't beat the competition on a clock for clock basis? Come on. Intel's not going anywhere anytime soon. >>
I didn't mean that Intel will go away anytime soon, and in fact, the P4 is one of the better CPU's i have seen lately. BUT, Intel is announcing profit warnings, AMD is prospering, increasing their profit every month of the year. AMD is going up, Intel is going down.
<< Funny. Windows 98SE is rock solid and I'm running the "russian" nVidia drivers, as you put it. I'll admit they have minor Start Menu corruption problems but nothing that affects my system's stabilit >>
Well, i am glad that your system is stable, i have found NVidia drivers to be totally worthless, of course, this is during my testing phases, some will not complete with NVidia drivers.
<< As for Windows 2000, a properly set up system will never crash. >>
I will not even go into that comment, because W2K is a collection of bugfixes, already updated with no less than two major bugfix packs. MS did a major mistake here, you see, many of the problems with W2K were never fix during the testing phases, they just made workarounds for them, not a very good solution.
<< An alternative that can't run anything and has a POS UI. People make fun of Macs because they have such a small amount of software for them. Well guess what? Macs have more software than Linux does. >>
Well, first of all, comparing the MAC to linux is just stupid, why? Mac's lost a lot of their market because of high pricing, i don't see that happening with LINUX. Which UI are you talking about, there are many of them which are looking very much like windows, are they the shi*ty ones? Actually, there are enough GUI's for LINUX that will make it look like MAC, W3.1 W98 or whatever you want. Sure there are not a big bunch of programs for LINUX, but there are many that are very good, StarOffice is a great program and you cannot beat the price, Corel have made their contributions to Linux, and there are some great games for Linux too these days, Q3, UT and many more.
Patrick Palm
PC Resources
BenSkywalker
Diamond Member
Patrick-
"I have been doing this for more than 15 years now, i have built and installed more than 10000 computers, and tested a whole lot more of them and i have personally designed systems for the very high-end... I have put together multi-million dollar mainframes, i have done some work on military systems... So i think i know a little bit more about this than your average user."
I'm aware of what you do. The length of time doesn't mean a thing, I've been working with computers for roughly twenty years. Not one single thing from that period of time does me an ounce of good today. I've been working with 3D for many years also, with the exception of being able to recall what it was like in the earlier days, none of that does me any good either. Perspective is about the only thing gained after you have acquired the needed level of wisdom in any particular field. The computer industry amplifies this as the only thing still relevant from ten years ago is the x86 platform basics for the overwhelming majority of users.
"When it comes to bugs there are a whole lot of them in every product ever released from MS, i will never forget the winsock-SP6 problem that caused so many problems for the VALTO users, actually, why were there ever any need to ship SEVEN service packs (and hundreds of hotfixes) for a bug free OS? And let's not forget that the IE browser is part of the OS, so every problem with that browser is an OS problem (security leaks is one of the major prolems)."
Are you trying to say that Linux is in anyway better? Perhaps as a server OS. It is extremely poor, to put it kindly, for 3D visualization or games. Then there is gaming where Linux is quite frankly a joke(far below that of even the Mac OS). Considering the topic of discussion, 3D accelerators, those are the only two topics that matter and in both regards Linux is not up to the level of any of the recent MS OSs. That is why I asked about 3D applications/games you used. If you want to argue server stability that is another topic entirely. As a consumer/pro 3D desktop OS Linux is not in any serious way competition to MS.
"Well, i am glad that your system is stable, i have found NVidia drivers to be totally worthless, of course, this is during my testing phases, some will not complete with NVidia drivers."
What validation process are you using relating to 3D? For that matter, what consumer level product is comparable/superior to nVidia? Which driver revisions have you tested?
"I will not even go into that comment, because W2K is a collection of bugfixes, already updated with no less than two major bugfix packs. MS did a major mistake here, you see, many of the problems with W2K were never fix during the testing phases, they just made workarounds for them, not a very good solution."
Compared to the hacks implemented in Linux? Looking at it from the topic perspective, 3D visualization and gaming, Linux is full of hacks(XFree in general in particular). When should an average person expect to see a crash in Win2K? This board is full of people who do things that shouldn't be done on any system when you want stability, I've yet to see a single complaint on Win2K's stability.
"Sure there are not a big bunch of programs for LINUX, but there are many that are very good, StarOffice is a great program and you cannot beat the price, Corel have made their contributions to Linux, and there are some great games for Linux too these days, Q3, UT and many more."
Quake3 performance is looking OK, UT isn't too bad either, the other ~dozen games of any worth that are recent are less then optimal and all of them are inferior to the same title running under Win9X(particularly if you are not running nVidia hardware where the gap is staggering). Star Office? When I first fired up StarOffice(version that shipped with Mandrake 7.1 was the first I saw of it) I thought it was a joke. I honestly was searching through all the various CDs looking for the real application that was being raved about. StarOffice makes WordPerfect suite look like a quantum leap forward. Likewise, there isn't a browser that I would want to use on Linux available. Call it bloatware or whatever else anyone would like, I spent enough time at a CLI in this lifetime and don't want to move in that direction ever again. Linux is at least a decade behind the other platforms in the desktop market. Even if it were the best server OS ever created, its' application support was the equal of MS and it was free, it still would trail MS by a significant margin in 3D application and games performance as of right now.
"I have been doing this for more than 15 years now, i have built and installed more than 10000 computers, and tested a whole lot more of them and i have personally designed systems for the very high-end... I have put together multi-million dollar mainframes, i have done some work on military systems... So i think i know a little bit more about this than your average user."
I'm aware of what you do. The length of time doesn't mean a thing, I've been working with computers for roughly twenty years. Not one single thing from that period of time does me an ounce of good today. I've been working with 3D for many years also, with the exception of being able to recall what it was like in the earlier days, none of that does me any good either. Perspective is about the only thing gained after you have acquired the needed level of wisdom in any particular field. The computer industry amplifies this as the only thing still relevant from ten years ago is the x86 platform basics for the overwhelming majority of users.
"When it comes to bugs there are a whole lot of them in every product ever released from MS, i will never forget the winsock-SP6 problem that caused so many problems for the VALTO users, actually, why were there ever any need to ship SEVEN service packs (and hundreds of hotfixes) for a bug free OS? And let's not forget that the IE browser is part of the OS, so every problem with that browser is an OS problem (security leaks is one of the major prolems)."
Are you trying to say that Linux is in anyway better? Perhaps as a server OS. It is extremely poor, to put it kindly, for 3D visualization or games. Then there is gaming where Linux is quite frankly a joke(far below that of even the Mac OS). Considering the topic of discussion, 3D accelerators, those are the only two topics that matter and in both regards Linux is not up to the level of any of the recent MS OSs. That is why I asked about 3D applications/games you used. If you want to argue server stability that is another topic entirely. As a consumer/pro 3D desktop OS Linux is not in any serious way competition to MS.
"Well, i am glad that your system is stable, i have found NVidia drivers to be totally worthless, of course, this is during my testing phases, some will not complete with NVidia drivers."
What validation process are you using relating to 3D? For that matter, what consumer level product is comparable/superior to nVidia? Which driver revisions have you tested?
"I will not even go into that comment, because W2K is a collection of bugfixes, already updated with no less than two major bugfix packs. MS did a major mistake here, you see, many of the problems with W2K were never fix during the testing phases, they just made workarounds for them, not a very good solution."
Compared to the hacks implemented in Linux? Looking at it from the topic perspective, 3D visualization and gaming, Linux is full of hacks(XFree in general in particular). When should an average person expect to see a crash in Win2K? This board is full of people who do things that shouldn't be done on any system when you want stability, I've yet to see a single complaint on Win2K's stability.
"Sure there are not a big bunch of programs for LINUX, but there are many that are very good, StarOffice is a great program and you cannot beat the price, Corel have made their contributions to Linux, and there are some great games for Linux too these days, Q3, UT and many more."
Quake3 performance is looking OK, UT isn't too bad either, the other ~dozen games of any worth that are recent are less then optimal and all of them are inferior to the same title running under Win9X(particularly if you are not running nVidia hardware where the gap is staggering). Star Office? When I first fired up StarOffice(version that shipped with Mandrake 7.1 was the first I saw of it) I thought it was a joke. I honestly was searching through all the various CDs looking for the real application that was being raved about. StarOffice makes WordPerfect suite look like a quantum leap forward. Likewise, there isn't a browser that I would want to use on Linux available. Call it bloatware or whatever else anyone would like, I spent enough time at a CLI in this lifetime and don't want to move in that direction ever again. Linux is at least a decade behind the other platforms in the desktop market. Even if it were the best server OS ever created, its' application support was the equal of MS and it was free, it still would trail MS by a significant margin in 3D application and games performance as of right now.
PCResources
Banned
<< not many updates from what i see >>
This is usually a VERY GOOD thing, now i'm not saying that ATI's drivers are all great, because they aren't.
But if you have a product, working drivers without problems and no performance problems, well then there's no need for new drivers. If these driver programmers would do their job right in the first place, well, then there wouldn't be any need for new drivers, except the ones for new OS's and games.
A driver update is a bugfix, it means that the previous driver had a problem with something, stability or performance. So if you need to update your drivers often to gain performance or stability, well then the drivers sux.
Patrick Palm
PC Resources
BenSkywalker
Diamond Member
"A driver update is a bugfix, it means that the previous driver had a problem with something, stability or performance. So if you need to update your drivers often to gain performance or stability, well then the drivers sux."
Wow, that statement was way off base, a bit surprising coming from you Patrick.
There are two main reasons why there are driver updates, increased feature support and enhanced performance(the latter being the overhwleming majority of driver releases). As far as feature support goes, with OpenGL in particular(DX8 in what appears to be an extremely limited way, if it works at all) vendors can add their own extension support and hence, add features that were not present in prior driver revisions or were simply disabled for whatever reason.
The other main reason, performance gains, will very rarely if ever show up in the standard fare benchmarks that we see, those are the first things the vendors optimize for. One example of this is the 6.31 drivers from nVidia. They suffered from some serious performance issues using Adobe Acrobat. There were no crashes, at least from what I saw OS or app, but the redraw performance was well below optimal. In the 6.50s, this issue was rectified. Moving from 6.50 to the 7.24 beta drivers currently circulating around performance in Giants was improved quite a bit, something that will show up for the majority of consumers in the next official release if they use the game. The 10.5 drivers smoothed things up a bit more in that particular title and was less subject to a performance hit in certain areas(I believe it was an environment map slowdown issue). I'm certain there are a significant amount of other titles that experienced like improvements with the same driver updates, even though you or I might not see one thing improve with the software we own.
Occasionaly there are bugs in driver releases that need to be fixed in official drivers. The last one I can think of for nVidia was the 6.18 having issues with certain chipsets and refusing to wakeup after going into power saving mode. The Radeon still has an issue with fog table emulation as it remains disabled, though that is more of a missing feature issue as it isn't present at all right now, just not enabled yet. There is also the 128x128 S3TC hack they implemented to improve older Quake3 builds image quality, I have heard that this may be fixed with the latest driver release. The last serious bug that I can think of for Radeon official drivers was the issues with certain Athlon motherboards, one that seems to have been fixed as of this point in time.
Anyone who wants to look at the above as an indication that the drivers for these boards svck, I would suggest going to A|W's website and looking at the list of problems every board has running Maya properly, including SGI's(who happens to own A|W) own hardware. If needing to release drivers regularly to increase performance is a poor sign then everyone in the 3D industry that is any good must have very poor drivers🙂
Wow, that statement was way off base, a bit surprising coming from you Patrick.
There are two main reasons why there are driver updates, increased feature support and enhanced performance(the latter being the overhwleming majority of driver releases). As far as feature support goes, with OpenGL in particular(DX8 in what appears to be an extremely limited way, if it works at all) vendors can add their own extension support and hence, add features that were not present in prior driver revisions or were simply disabled for whatever reason.
The other main reason, performance gains, will very rarely if ever show up in the standard fare benchmarks that we see, those are the first things the vendors optimize for. One example of this is the 6.31 drivers from nVidia. They suffered from some serious performance issues using Adobe Acrobat. There were no crashes, at least from what I saw OS or app, but the redraw performance was well below optimal. In the 6.50s, this issue was rectified. Moving from 6.50 to the 7.24 beta drivers currently circulating around performance in Giants was improved quite a bit, something that will show up for the majority of consumers in the next official release if they use the game. The 10.5 drivers smoothed things up a bit more in that particular title and was less subject to a performance hit in certain areas(I believe it was an environment map slowdown issue). I'm certain there are a significant amount of other titles that experienced like improvements with the same driver updates, even though you or I might not see one thing improve with the software we own.
Occasionaly there are bugs in driver releases that need to be fixed in official drivers. The last one I can think of for nVidia was the 6.18 having issues with certain chipsets and refusing to wakeup after going into power saving mode. The Radeon still has an issue with fog table emulation as it remains disabled, though that is more of a missing feature issue as it isn't present at all right now, just not enabled yet. There is also the 128x128 S3TC hack they implemented to improve older Quake3 builds image quality, I have heard that this may be fixed with the latest driver release. The last serious bug that I can think of for Radeon official drivers was the issues with certain Athlon motherboards, one that seems to have been fixed as of this point in time.
Anyone who wants to look at the above as an indication that the drivers for these boards svck, I would suggest going to A|W's website and looking at the list of problems every board has running Maya properly, including SGI's(who happens to own A|W) own hardware. If needing to release drivers regularly to increase performance is a poor sign then everyone in the 3D industry that is any good must have very poor drivers🙂
PCResources
Banned
<< I'm aware of what you do. The length of time doesn't mean a thing, I've been working with computers for roughly twenty years. Not one single thing from that period of time does me an ounce of good today. I've been working with 3D for many years also, with the exception of being able to recall what it was like in the earlier days, none of that does me any good either. Perspective is about the only thing gained after you have acquired the needed level of wisdom in any particular field. The computer industry amplifies this as the only thing still relevant from ten years ago is the x86 platform basics for the overwhelming majority of users. >>
Soooo, experience does not matter? You are so very wrong, i use much of the experience i gained 10 years ago every day, sure the toys change, but the game is the same, electronics and the analyzation of it isn't all that different today, and many of the programming rules that were true back then are still the ones we use, aren't they?
<< Are you trying to say that Linux is in anyway better? Perhaps as a server OS. It is extremely poor, to put it kindly, for 3D visualization or games. Then there is gaming where Linux is quite frankly a joke(far below that of even the Mac OS). Considering the topic of discussion, 3D accelerators, those are the only two topics that matter and in both regards Linux is not up to the level of any of the recent MS OSs. That is why I asked about 3D applications/games you used. If you want to argue server stability that is another topic entirely. As a consumer/pro 3D desktop OS Linux is not in any serious way competition to MS. >>
First of all, i have to ask you this, how many 3d apps and games have you tried on linux, which version and which distribution of linux was it, did you optimize the system at all?
Of course you did not, Linux is way more powerful compared to any MS OS. That is it, obviously you do not know what you are talking about here, you describe Linux as a joke for gaming, well i beg to differ, the more powerful core of Linux makes it easier to write both good drivers and games for it.
This is just like when people thought that AMD was a joke for gaming, well, were they wrong back then, no, but were they very narrow minded? Yes, and quite frankly Ben, so are you, Linux is still in it's cradle, but it is gaining popularity, both from the SW companies and from the users.
<< What validation process are you using relating to 3D? For that matter, what consumer level product is comparable/superior to nVidia? Which driver revisions have you tested? >>
I use a major SoftImage demo, One AutoCad 3D demo, for gaming, Q3, UT, Deus Ex... I have tested every driver version avaliable, for the Quadro i used the latest 7 series drivers as well as the latest 6 series drivers (but performance was a joke), for the GF1+2+Ultra i used the latest 6 series drivers, for the TNT2 Ultra i tried both the latest 5, 6 and 7 drivers. NONE of them managed to get through all of the tests, tests were performed under 9X W2K and Linux.
<< Compared to the hacks implemented in Linux? Looking at it from the topic perspective, 3D visualization and gaming, Linux is full of hacks(XFree in general in particular). When should an average person expect to see a crash in Win2K? This board is full of people who do things that shouldn't be done on any system when you want stability, I've yet to see a single complaint on Win2K's stability. >>
One thing about this, Linux systems that are optimized for specific tasks are much better at doing their job than W2K or whatever MS OS you would like.
General optimization can also be done, resulting in higher performance all-round... I'm not saying that Linux is perfect, it is hard to set up if you do not know how to do it. But you stated that all of MS OS's are rock stable, and that is just not true. And then we have pricing, how much does a fully operational Server, Consumer and Gaming OS from microsoft cost? It would have to be very fast, containing the latest firewall and proxy programs, a powerful web server, exchange server, a GOOD vector and bitmapping program, at least a couple of high-end SQL servers and a few programming and compilation tools.
<< Quake3 performance is looking OK, UT isn't too bad either, the other ~dozen games of any worth that are recent are less then optimal and all of them are inferior to the same title running under Win9X(particularly if you are not running nVidia hardware where the gap is staggering). Star Office? When I first fired up StarOffice(version that shipped with Mandrake 7.1 was the first I saw of it) I thought it was a joke. I honestly was searching through all the various CDs looking for the real application that was being raved about. StarOffice makes WordPerfect suite look like a quantum leap forward. Likewise, there isn't a browser that I would want to use on Linux available. Call it bloatware or whatever else anyone would like, I spent enough time at a CLI in this lifetime and don't want to move in that direction ever again. Linux is at least a decade behind the other platforms in the desktop market. Even if it were the best server OS ever created, its' application support was the equal of MS and it was free, it still would trail MS by a significant margin in 3D application and games performance as of right now. >>
Ok, you don't like the looks of Staroffice, or don't you like the apps, it can do everything that MS Office can do (including opening any office 2000 files), it's way faster and it has a great price, there is only one browser that is NOT avaliable for Linux, IE (which is of course the only one you like, becaus MS is the only way to go, right?), and the security problems with that browser renders it totally worthless. Netscape is availiable, Opera, the star office shell is actually a potent, java compatiable browser. If you look at the tech behind the OS you would find out that Linux is far AHEAD and not behind, if you would drop your "MS is GREAT" attitude and try to see beyond what you learned in windows then maybe you would like Linux better.
However, the dist you used wasn't a very good one, i would suggest you try out Slackware, it's far better.
<< It is not always the drivers that are at fault. >>
True, not always, but most of the time.
Patrick Palm
PC Resources
Mem
Lifer
Also I only use official drivers,even when they bring out newer beta drivers so does this mean I`ve problems with my current official drivers?No it does not so you could also say you have good driver support with regular updates from Nvidia,it`s how you interpret it & as we have seen many ways.
🙂
🙂
PCResources
Banned
Just as i stated DX updated (a part of the OS) and game updated drivers which improves performance in new games or new revisions of DX are not bugfixes.
BUT, when a driver is updated without adding anything for anything that could not have been there before, well then it is a bugfix, and those are the most common updates.
As SGI has to update the drivers for any SW, time and time again to get it right, i would say that their driver team have a problem. That would be a bugfix, now wouldn't it?
Patrick Palm
PC Resources
BUT, when a driver is updated without adding anything for anything that could not have been there before, well then it is a bugfix, and those are the most common updates.
As SGI has to update the drivers for any SW, time and time again to get it right, i would say that their driver team have a problem. That would be a bugfix, now wouldn't it?
Patrick Palm
PC Resources
<< Well, i am glad that your system is stable, i have found NVidia drivers to be totally worthless, of course, this is during my testing phases, some will not complete with NVidia drivers. >>
You have to be kidding 🙂 Whos drivers are better? ATI, LOL, go read the review anand just did on the subject.
Or maybe you think 3DefunctFX drivers were better.... well the guys making those now work for nvidia, soooo go figure
I heard Trident makes a decent set of drivers, so maybe them????
BTW, how are those ATI linux drivers doing? Im assuming that is what you must use in linux. Oops, on ATI's website doesnt look like ati even develops them:
<< While ATI does not develop Linux or XFree86 drivers for its graphics cards in house,we actively support 3rd party developers that provide driver support for the majority of ATI products with development kits and information.
>>
hehe, I will bet those drivers rock 🙂
'NVidia made the same mistake that Rambus, Intel and Microsoft has made before... They are trying to beat the competition by capital rather than technology, Rambus failed'
Without wishing to join in this argument, I have to say I dont agree with the above statement, surely Nvidia are for once releasing a card that is using better technology, rather than outright horsepower.
It seems to me to be a little pointless ATI saying that their next product will beat the geforce3 when it is likely by the time the radeon 2 is out nvidia will have moved on a phase in the development cycle. I am quite excited by the new geforce3 and would gladly upgrade from my gts ultra if and when it is available over here (uk).
Without wishing to join in this argument, I have to say I dont agree with the above statement, surely Nvidia are for once releasing a card that is using better technology, rather than outright horsepower.
It seems to me to be a little pointless ATI saying that their next product will beat the geforce3 when it is likely by the time the radeon 2 is out nvidia will have moved on a phase in the development cycle. I am quite excited by the new geforce3 and would gladly upgrade from my gts ultra if and when it is available over here (uk).
BenSkywalker
Diamond Member
"Soooo, experience does not matter? You are so very wrong, i use much of the experience i gained 10 years ago every day, sure the toys change, but the game is the same, electronics and the analyzation of it isn't all that different today, and many of the programming rules that were true back then are still the ones we use, aren't they?"
In what I do? Everything from ten years ago is a joke. Only the very basic principles are the same. Is programming the same? Well, if you only stick with the very basics, SIMD optimizations and dealing with API optimizations weren't exactly key issues in 1991. What exactly were you working with in 3D 15 years ago? Any experience gained is quite useless I assure you and can be covered in one class using one semester, if you are thorough, for any teenage kid coming out of school today.
"First of all, i have to ask you this, how many 3d apps and games have you tried on linux, which version and which distribution of linux was it, did you optimize the system at all?"
Quake3 and UT were the two main games that I tested with under Linux, both of them were OK but neither of them were up to their Windows counterparts. One from id which I already mentioned was decent and the other from Loki games(was in contact with Daniel Vogel over at Loki games for some time about the port and its' following dll Windows port). Less then otpimal titles? SimCity3000 wasn't up to par, neither was HeavyMetall FAKK2 though I didn't spend an enormous amount of time dealing with it either. Of course, that was using nVidia hardware which is significantly faster then any other consumer board under Linux(if you would like, I can get people whose job it is to code games for Linux to testify to that fact).
Builds, Mandrake 7.1 is the one I use at home although I have also used RedHat 7.0 a bit(. No, no Slackware, but I thought the discussion was Linux, not xxx build running xxx application using xxx hardware? I've seen the performance of Linux running both the included applications that shipped with Mandrake, and I've also seen the performance in Maya(poor under Linux) versus NT on identical hardware.
"Of course you did not, Linux is way more powerful compared to any MS OS. That is it, obviously you do not know what you are talking about here, you describe Linux as a joke for gaming, well i beg to differ, the more powerful core of Linux makes it easier to write both good drivers and games for it."
You start by questioning my credibility and then go on to infer that the level of sophistication of the core of the OS somehow relates directly to its' ability to be a gaming OS? The best gaming OS right now is Win9X, as it has been for several years. Whatever ideological thoughts you may have towards the core of the OS it is irrelevant for actual gaming. The performance is below that of Windows, that is fact. The performance of Linux running games with non nVidia hardware is significantly slower then Windows, that is fact. 3dfx's drivers are not up to the standard of their Win counterparts and ATi's, last I checked for the Radeon, were still MIA. The maturation process of the elements that make up a good gaming platform are very different then those that make up a good workstation or server. Linux is making progress, but with the numerous USB issues still present many game controllers are out of the quesion and until OpenAL becomes a completely realized vision Linux has rather inferior sound for gaming purposes also.
Ignoring all that, not a single game that I have purchase in the last six months is available for Linux and that is the single most important factor in any gaming platform. You seem to be taking the position that Linux is capable of playing games, I'm not arguing that. As of this point in time Win9X is still the best gaming platform. With the exception of Win2K which is improving quite a bit in that respect, it is the best by a wide margin.
"I use a major SoftImage demo, One AutoCad 3D demo, for gaming, Q3, UT, Deus Ex"
Huh? Which version of SoftImage were you running exactly? It doesn't run under Win9X or Linux as of right now and hasn't for some time at least(ever that I can remember). The only OSs it has operated under has been WinNT, Win2K and Irix which predates Linux by sometime. It doesn't surprise me that the drivers would fail with the test involved, you had to have hacked something into place to gotten into run at all. AutoCAD, again the latest version, also doesn't run under Linux, which version were you using?
"I have tested every driver version avaliable, for the Quadro i used the latest 7 series drivers as well as the latest 6 series drivers (but performance was a joke), for the GF1+2+Ultra i used the latest 6 series drivers, for the TNT2 Ultra i tried both the latest 5, 6 and 7 drivers. NONE of them managed to get through all of the tests, tests were performed under 9X W2K and Linux."
I'm not surprised at all that Win9X and Linux failed the test you mentioned above, either you were using rather old builds of software or you had to have used a hack. You didn't mention, which version drivers were you using for Linux and which build of XFree?
"One thing about this, Linux systems that are optimized for specific tasks are much better at doing their job than W2K or whatever MS OS you would like."
They simply can't handle certain real time 3D tasks at all right now. Sure, when nVidia gets around to adding full extension support to their OpenGL drivers, as long as XFree has been properly updated, they will be back in the running. If you are talking about having to custom compile a build of for gaming, and then another for visualization, how is that a good thing for Linux? Seems to me that would be asking you to fix problems, though I'm not sure which type of optimizations you are talking about.
My problem was when I was trying to "optimize" Linux(read, get any 3D support at all). Updating XFree to build 4.01 completely hosed the system numerous times, when it finally was up and running properly, and the drivers were installed, you have to drop to a CLI to "fix" everything that XFree install fvcks up. Removing, moving, and editing various files that are updated improperly. After about half a dozen go arounds and getting it up and running I saw the level of performance I was supposed to be seeing(I asked those with the proper experience) but continued to get a font server error(forget the exact error message, but I did ask in several different locations and was given the instructions to wait for the next build of XFree, lot of good that does).
"Ok, you don't like the looks of Staroffice, or don't you like the apps, it can do everything that MS Office can do"
80% of the features in Office I have never used, the 20% I do I use every day. StarOffice doesn't have all the features, it is a basic office software suite. Can you do everything, yes, but not as quickly at least I can't. As far as the speed of the application, this is Office applications we are talking about.
"there is only one browser that is NOT avaliable for Linux, IE (which is of course the only one you like, becaus MS is the only way to go, right?),"
Ran Mac OS for nearly a decade as my primary OS, dual booted Win9x and BeOS on my machine for some time, then was dual booting Mandrake and Win98 for a while on my primary machine. Currently I am running only MS OSs as I don't dual boot on either NT or Win2K(personal preference). I used WordPerfect Suite up until version 8(have version 8, nowhere near as good as Office97 was) used Nutscrape until IE version 4.0 was out. I go with what is best, if that happens to be MS for several different things then so be it. Linux would work to great for me as a primary OS no matter what as the applications that I use are not available for it, nor are the majority of games for my entertainment purposes).
IE5 is a superior browser for my needs. I'm not running a 486 class processor with 8MB of RAM, I don't need the small footprint of Opera though it is much better(and significantly less buggy) the Navigator. For any assumptions of MS conspiracy, I used Navigator on the Mac for quite some time and was still a POS.
"If you look at the tech behind the OS you would find out that Linux is far AHEAD and not behind, if you would drop your "MS is GREAT" attitude and try to see beyond what you learned in windows then maybe you would like Linux better."
I'm well beyond my sticking to idealogical thoughts on technology. Does it work? I could quite frankly care less if someon came out with a new DOS based OS(besides ME😉) if it did everything that I wanted it to and offered the stability I was after and the performance I desired then I would run it. If at some point Linux becomes a truly viable desktop alternative(which not even Linus Trovalds will argue, quite telling) then I may well pick it up. My main concern is 3D technology which as of this point in time, Linux is trailing in.
In what I do? Everything from ten years ago is a joke. Only the very basic principles are the same. Is programming the same? Well, if you only stick with the very basics, SIMD optimizations and dealing with API optimizations weren't exactly key issues in 1991. What exactly were you working with in 3D 15 years ago? Any experience gained is quite useless I assure you and can be covered in one class using one semester, if you are thorough, for any teenage kid coming out of school today.
"First of all, i have to ask you this, how many 3d apps and games have you tried on linux, which version and which distribution of linux was it, did you optimize the system at all?"
Quake3 and UT were the two main games that I tested with under Linux, both of them were OK but neither of them were up to their Windows counterparts. One from id which I already mentioned was decent and the other from Loki games(was in contact with Daniel Vogel over at Loki games for some time about the port and its' following dll Windows port). Less then otpimal titles? SimCity3000 wasn't up to par, neither was HeavyMetall FAKK2 though I didn't spend an enormous amount of time dealing with it either. Of course, that was using nVidia hardware which is significantly faster then any other consumer board under Linux(if you would like, I can get people whose job it is to code games for Linux to testify to that fact).
Builds, Mandrake 7.1 is the one I use at home although I have also used RedHat 7.0 a bit(. No, no Slackware, but I thought the discussion was Linux, not xxx build running xxx application using xxx hardware? I've seen the performance of Linux running both the included applications that shipped with Mandrake, and I've also seen the performance in Maya(poor under Linux) versus NT on identical hardware.
"Of course you did not, Linux is way more powerful compared to any MS OS. That is it, obviously you do not know what you are talking about here, you describe Linux as a joke for gaming, well i beg to differ, the more powerful core of Linux makes it easier to write both good drivers and games for it."
You start by questioning my credibility and then go on to infer that the level of sophistication of the core of the OS somehow relates directly to its' ability to be a gaming OS? The best gaming OS right now is Win9X, as it has been for several years. Whatever ideological thoughts you may have towards the core of the OS it is irrelevant for actual gaming. The performance is below that of Windows, that is fact. The performance of Linux running games with non nVidia hardware is significantly slower then Windows, that is fact. 3dfx's drivers are not up to the standard of their Win counterparts and ATi's, last I checked for the Radeon, were still MIA. The maturation process of the elements that make up a good gaming platform are very different then those that make up a good workstation or server. Linux is making progress, but with the numerous USB issues still present many game controllers are out of the quesion and until OpenAL becomes a completely realized vision Linux has rather inferior sound for gaming purposes also.
Ignoring all that, not a single game that I have purchase in the last six months is available for Linux and that is the single most important factor in any gaming platform. You seem to be taking the position that Linux is capable of playing games, I'm not arguing that. As of this point in time Win9X is still the best gaming platform. With the exception of Win2K which is improving quite a bit in that respect, it is the best by a wide margin.
"I use a major SoftImage demo, One AutoCad 3D demo, for gaming, Q3, UT, Deus Ex"
Huh? Which version of SoftImage were you running exactly? It doesn't run under Win9X or Linux as of right now and hasn't for some time at least(ever that I can remember). The only OSs it has operated under has been WinNT, Win2K and Irix which predates Linux by sometime. It doesn't surprise me that the drivers would fail with the test involved, you had to have hacked something into place to gotten into run at all. AutoCAD, again the latest version, also doesn't run under Linux, which version were you using?
"I have tested every driver version avaliable, for the Quadro i used the latest 7 series drivers as well as the latest 6 series drivers (but performance was a joke), for the GF1+2+Ultra i used the latest 6 series drivers, for the TNT2 Ultra i tried both the latest 5, 6 and 7 drivers. NONE of them managed to get through all of the tests, tests were performed under 9X W2K and Linux."
I'm not surprised at all that Win9X and Linux failed the test you mentioned above, either you were using rather old builds of software or you had to have used a hack. You didn't mention, which version drivers were you using for Linux and which build of XFree?
"One thing about this, Linux systems that are optimized for specific tasks are much better at doing their job than W2K or whatever MS OS you would like."
They simply can't handle certain real time 3D tasks at all right now. Sure, when nVidia gets around to adding full extension support to their OpenGL drivers, as long as XFree has been properly updated, they will be back in the running. If you are talking about having to custom compile a build of for gaming, and then another for visualization, how is that a good thing for Linux? Seems to me that would be asking you to fix problems, though I'm not sure which type of optimizations you are talking about.
My problem was when I was trying to "optimize" Linux(read, get any 3D support at all). Updating XFree to build 4.01 completely hosed the system numerous times, when it finally was up and running properly, and the drivers were installed, you have to drop to a CLI to "fix" everything that XFree install fvcks up. Removing, moving, and editing various files that are updated improperly. After about half a dozen go arounds and getting it up and running I saw the level of performance I was supposed to be seeing(I asked those with the proper experience) but continued to get a font server error(forget the exact error message, but I did ask in several different locations and was given the instructions to wait for the next build of XFree, lot of good that does).
"Ok, you don't like the looks of Staroffice, or don't you like the apps, it can do everything that MS Office can do"
80% of the features in Office I have never used, the 20% I do I use every day. StarOffice doesn't have all the features, it is a basic office software suite. Can you do everything, yes, but not as quickly at least I can't. As far as the speed of the application, this is Office applications we are talking about.
"there is only one browser that is NOT avaliable for Linux, IE (which is of course the only one you like, becaus MS is the only way to go, right?),"
Ran Mac OS for nearly a decade as my primary OS, dual booted Win9x and BeOS on my machine for some time, then was dual booting Mandrake and Win98 for a while on my primary machine. Currently I am running only MS OSs as I don't dual boot on either NT or Win2K(personal preference). I used WordPerfect Suite up until version 8(have version 8, nowhere near as good as Office97 was) used Nutscrape until IE version 4.0 was out. I go with what is best, if that happens to be MS for several different things then so be it. Linux would work to great for me as a primary OS no matter what as the applications that I use are not available for it, nor are the majority of games for my entertainment purposes).
IE5 is a superior browser for my needs. I'm not running a 486 class processor with 8MB of RAM, I don't need the small footprint of Opera though it is much better(and significantly less buggy) the Navigator. For any assumptions of MS conspiracy, I used Navigator on the Mac for quite some time and was still a POS.
"If you look at the tech behind the OS you would find out that Linux is far AHEAD and not behind, if you would drop your "MS is GREAT" attitude and try to see beyond what you learned in windows then maybe you would like Linux better."
I'm well beyond my sticking to idealogical thoughts on technology. Does it work? I could quite frankly care less if someon came out with a new DOS based OS(besides ME😉) if it did everything that I wanted it to and offered the stability I was after and the performance I desired then I would run it. If at some point Linux becomes a truly viable desktop alternative(which not even Linus Trovalds will argue, quite telling) then I may well pick it up. My main concern is 3D technology which as of this point in time, Linux is trailing in.
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