ATI + LCD @ 120hz causes jittering/distortion problem

[kalrith]

I've read that 120Hz introduces more input lag than 60Hz. If this is true, then I'm not sure that 120Hz would be the best option. Just because reviewers state that it's smoother at 120 than 60 doesn't mean it's true. If they want to believe that it's smoother at 120, then they can "perceive" that even if it's not the case.

 

[Dribble]

You've read where?

Input lag is just time the monitor spends processing the picture before displaying it. There's no reason it should be worse for 120hz, if anything in general it should be very good because these monitors are designed for gaming so should have low lag.

 

[CP5670]

I've read that 120Hz introduces more input lag than 60Hz. If this is true, then I'm not sure that 120Hz would be the best option. Just because reviewers state that it's smoother at 120 than 60 doesn't mean it's true. If they want to believe that it's smoother at 120, then they can "perceive" that even if it's not the case.

You're thinking of the marketing 120hz that many TVs do, which is actually just 60hz input with interpolated frames in between. The interpolation causes the lag. This thread is about true 120hz input, as done by CRTs and the LCDs designed for 3D vision.

 

[kalrith]

You're thinking of the marketing 120hz that many TVs do, which is actually just 60hz input with interpolated frames in between. The interpolation causes the lag. This thread is about true 120hz input, as done by CRTs and the LCDs designed for 3D vision.

That's exactly what I was thinking of. I've never even heard of LCDs designed for 3D vision, so I'll kindly back out of the thread now ^_^

 

[Caerid]

For those still suffering from the flickering in 2d-mode in 120hz refresh. I've been using this half-assed solution till Ati finally gets around to fixing the problem.

I just open a vid file using Mpc-hc, or any video playback software that allows hardware decoding and pause it and leave it minimized. Of course this only works if your problems are only in 2d. Not sure if it helps any in 3d mode.

Hope this helps some of you.

 

[deepinya]

I have just tried the official drivers, but it still doesn't work. Nothing has been fixed, and it's not even recognized as a known problem in the driver change logs. It's so ridiculous.
Nvidia users have had the frequencies 60, 75, 85, 100, 110 and 120hz in ALL resolutions since the screen was released in January. We still only have 120hz in native but it doesn't work on the desktop. It doesn't work 100% in 3D mode as well, since some games like QuakeLive also get distortion once in a while.

So its possible to get 120hz in non-native resolutions? Does it look just as good? Usually the quality/lag gets worse when non in native 1680x1050.

 

[Ben90]

I've read that 120Hz introduces more input lag than 60Hz. If this is true, then I'm not sure that 120Hz would be the best option. Just because reviewers state that it's smoother at 120 than 60 doesn't mean it's true. If they want to believe that it's smoother at 120, then they can "perceive" that even if it's not the case.

Yea, one time i installed new drivers, but didn't restart my computer for a few days so i forgot about it. Well i realized something was wrong moving my mouse from the center of the screen to the start bar. Absolutely no 3d, just moving my mouse 2 inches. I thought i had a virus, until about 5 mins later i remembered about the drivers, which set my refresh rate at 60. So yes it is extremely perceivable. When something gets changed and i game, it takes me all of 0 seconds to know that my monitor is refreshing at only 60fps.

And as for the input lag, i believe the RZ has exactly 1 frame of delay. At 60hz its 16.6ms+response time, while at 120hz its 8ms+response time.

Honestly i love this monitor to death, and while its not as fast as my CRT, the added fidelity of 1680-1050 vs 800x600 is worth it to me

 

[natty1]

bump

 

[deepinya]

Yea, one time i installed new drivers, but didn't restart my computer for a few days so i forgot about it. Well i realized something was wrong moving my mouse from the center of the screen to the start bar. Absolutely no 3d, just moving my mouse 2 inches. I thought i had a virus, until about 5 mins later i remembered about the drivers, which set my refresh rate at 60. So yes it is extremely perceivable. When something gets changed and i game, it takes me all of 0 seconds to know that my monitor is refreshing at only 60fps.

And as for the input lag, i believe the RZ has exactly 1 frame of delay. At 60hz its 16.6ms+response time, while at 120hz its 8ms+response time.

Honestly i love this monitor to death, and while its not as fast as my CRT, the added fidelity of 1680-1050 vs 800x600 is worth it to me

Do you happen to know the frame delay on the viewsonic 120hz version?

 

[Martin84a]

I urge everyone to write to the Catalyst team. I sadly don't think anything will happen before they receive multiple complains. I can see that they ought to know about this problem, but as was said earlier, they don't even list in in their known driver problems. Either they don't care or have it prioritized incredible low given they've only got few reports on 120hz problems. But just how low can it be prioritized, if they constantly focus on fixing Power DVD issues in every single driver release.
http://www2.ati.com/relnotes/Catalyst_912_release_notes.pdf



http://www.amd.com/us/CatalystCrewSurvey

As something extra, they have a support page where you can contact them.
http://support.amd.com/us/contacts/Pages/holiday-support.aspx

And finally there is a service form we can fill out.

http://onlineservices.amd.com/icssb2c_amd/indexStandalone.jsp?language=EN

I don't recall ever having to wait over a year for a god damn driver fix.

 

[Grim281]

its not a driver problem or anything. The tv is 60hz. The whole 120hz thing is just the tv (not your input ) inserting extra frames. Keep your input on 60 and turn on the 120hz feature on your tv and you will have your "120"hz. It is a marketing gimmick and nothing much else. I have a samsung 120hz tv so I know.

 

[Martin84a]

its not a driver problem or anything. The tv is 60hz. The whole 120hz thing is just the tv (not your input ) inserting extra frames. Keep your input on 60 and turn on the 120hz feature on your tv and you will have your "120"hz. It is a marketing gimmick and nothing much else. I have a samsung 120hz tv so I know.

I wonder how many times we have to explain this. No you don't know. Your TV uses motion interpolation while Samsung 2233RZ, Viewsonic VX2265 and 2268 have true 120hz. They all have two physical 60hz chips instead of one, which also means they require a powerful video card, and a Dual-Link DVI cable. If you had followed the thread you'd have known this. We get distortion because in 2D mode the graphic card only deliver a certain amount of juice. With two monitors attached the card automatically increase it some more, and in 3D mode even more. The problem is that ATI cards work fine with CRT and 60-75hz LCD in 2D mode, but if you have a new 120hz screen, the screen doesn't receive enough signal strength or whatever it is there is a shortage of. This is the unofficial explanation from a moderator on ATI's forum.

 

[tihifnis]

Posed on Beyond3d now..I hope Dave Baumann might be able to shed some light on any progress.

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?p=1373896#post1373896

 

[Ben90]

Do you happen to know the frame delay on the viewsonic 120hz version?

http://3dvision-blog.com/samsung-2233rz-and-viewsonic-vx2268wm-with-the-same-input-lag/

 

[tihifnis]

Hm..according to Dave it's been fixed. But I wonder whether he only means the HD5000 cards. Can someone with a HD5000 card verify that there are no more problems?

 

[BTRY B 529th FA BN]

Not your fault. The forum moderators in charge of a simple tweak to fix the side-scrolling haven't done so. Help us out here, thanks

 

[Martin84a]

Sure..and sorry, I'm on 24" so didn't think about it.

 

[tihifnis]

Isn't there a HD5000 and HD4000 user that can verify whether there problems are fixed with 9.12?

 

[tihifnis]

I've been digging some myself now, and I don't understand ATI/Dave's think it's been fixed. As I still can see several posts on AMD's forum regarding 120hz problems. This is just one of the posts.

http://forums.amd.com/game/messagev...TPAGE=4&FTVAR_FORUMVIEWTMP=Linear&#lastunread

 

[Conditioned]

First, thanks for anandtech, I have been using your site.. hm I think its 8-9 years (Can that be the case?). Anyways, I have spent around 25 hours on this issue by now. I own an 2268 and a 5850. You can read my posts (Hope Im not break any rules, please feel free to Kenny me if I do) Anyways: http://forums.amd.com/game/messagev...=119598&STARTPAGE=4&FTVAR_FORUMVIEWTMP=Linear http://www.cadred.org/Forums/Thread/83946/ http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/7947-force-dvi-hdmi-resolutions-refresh-rates-17.html http://forums.amd.com/forum/messageview.cfm?FTVAR_FORUMVIEWTMP=Single&catid=203&threadid=123623 What happens is that the driver seems to 'forget' that it can do 100-120hz (2d/3d) after a reset (Ie boot add/remove tv/second monitor). So that means, if I want to play at 100/120 hz, I have to completely remove monitor driver and/or ccc (using driver cleaner pro/cat-uninstaller.exe). If I want to you might ask? well I paid 700 euros for a 5850 and the 2268 so take a guess. I have spent around 25 hours on this, and I consider myself decently technical and having been a 'pro-gamer' since -97. Seems Nvidiausers dont have this problem since they can define their own custom res/refreshrates in their drivers. ps. Even though it appears I cannot set 100-120 hz from ccc/win, ccc still says 'display reports highest 120 hz supported' or something to that effect. ps. I have never been able to set 100-120 hz in 2d without, after a little while getting some kind of corruption issue that ends in a reset of the monitor (goes blank) and then returns to default res 1680x1050 at 60 hz with all 100-120 hz options gone.

 

[Conditioned]

I've been digging some myself now, and I don't understand ATI/Dave's think it's been fixed. As I still can see several posts on AMD's forum regarding 120hz problems. This is just one of the posts.

http://forums.amd.com/game/messagev...TPAGE=4&FTVAR_FORUMVIEWTMP=Linear&#lastunread

Yes, you like me can take this information that ATI is very unsensitive to their users since their forums (and a lot of other places as well ofc) are full of problems and complaints about this issue.

 

[BTRY B 529th FA BN]

I thought the model number was VX2265wm?

 

[Conditioned]

Dont know if the 2265 supports 120, read somewhere it does. However the 2268 does support it officially at its native res 1680x1050. Should work with other res´s too.

 

[Zstream]

I wonder how many times we have to explain this. No you don't know. Your TV uses motion interpolation while Samsung 2233RZ, Viewsonic VX2265 and 2268 have true 120hz. They all have two physical 60hz chips instead of one, which also means they require a powerful video card, and a Dual-Link DVI cable. If you had followed the thread you'd have known this. We get distortion because in 2D mode the graphic card only deliver a certain amount of juice. With two monitors attached the card automatically increase it some more, and in 3D mode even more. The problem is that ATI cards work fine with CRT and 60-75hz LCD in 2D mode, but if you have a new 120hz screen, the screen doesn't receive enough signal strength or whatever it is there is a shortage of. This is the unofficial explanation from a moderator on ATI's forum.

That makes no sense... Two physical 60hz chips? You can not just combine them to equal 120 you know.

**EDIT**

In fact it turns out it is not true 120hz like you stated. It is 60hz for each frame, basically for each eyeball to generate 3d.

 

[BTRY B 529th FA BN]

Dont know if the 2265 supports 120, read somewhere it does. However the 2268 does support it officially at its native res 1680x1050. Should work with other res´s too.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...wsonic%20120hz