ATI and SM2.0b

[43st]

Anandtech did a GPU round up a while back. This was said in that round up...

As far as the various models are concerned, ATI has DX7, DX8.1, and DX9 parts, as well as an unofficial DX9 with SM2.0b support - unofficial due to the fact that Microsoft has not actually certified this "in between" version of DX9. ATI has features that are part of SM3.0, but they do not include the full SM3.0 feature set. When they enable their 2.0b features, they fail WHQL compliance. Since not having WHQL compliance creates concerns among users (the dreaded "This device driver is not certified for use by Microsoft" warning), ATI will turn them off by default, and many people will not know enough to reenable them. It may not seem like a big deal, but software companies are less likely to optimize for non-standard features - especially ones that are disabled by default - so SM3.0 is more likely to see support than SM2.0b.

My question... How does one enable these features in this card and will enabling them show any benefits in games supporting SM3.0 features.

I ask because of this (Pacific Fighters image)

 

[LTC8K6]

SM3.0 won't actually look much different than SM2.0 or 2.0b.

SM3.0 basically allows certain things to be done faster.

It's hard to tell why those images might look different, but I doubt it's due to shader mark versions.

 

[OnEMoReTrY]

That's the most bs pic ive ever seen lol... SM 3.0 only allows things to be done faster. It wont make a game look like doom 3 when the SM 2.0 makes it look like pong.

 

[43st]

That image is very real... that's why I'm asking about enabling SM2.0b on an ATI card.

 

[OnEMoReTrY]

Those pictures are comparing vertex textures to no vertex textures. Vertex textures have been around for a long time. SM 3.0 is not the only shader model that can run them... They just run them "faster"

 

[43st]

I'm not saying your wrong... I'm just trying to get to the bottom of this. Nvidia calls the feature vertex texture fetch if you look at that page.

The image I linked actually includes an image from that Nvidia white paper. Pacific Fighters was released today in Germany so I'm trying to find out if Nvidia owners actually have that water. I have a 9800 Pro (w/o SM2.0b) and I do not have that water, period.

 

[otispunkmeyer]

Originally posted by: OnEMoReTrY
Those pictures are comparing vertex textures to no vertex textures. Vertex textures have been around for a long time. SM 3.0 is not the only shader model that can run them... They just run them "faster"

exactly

tho its not a defining feature of sm3.0 it does allow it to be done faster.........maybe sm2.0 can do exactrly the same jus the performance hit from doing it is too severe

 

[imported_Harbinger]

http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/...dermodel30_nvidia.mspx

This is the official microsoft comparison between sm 2.0 and 3.0
One may conclude that sm 3.0 is aeons ahead of 2.0 in terms of features but yet sm3.0 is not a justified must-have feature of a graphics card. Sure far cry sees some boost
in certain levels with sm3 enabled but nothing really special. If we suppose that future games will be heavily optimized for sm3 paths then yes, sm3 will become a must have since
it will encrase a lot the performance and eye candy with no quality loss. This whole senario is hypothetical and only time will tell though.

And about your question about pacific's water I cant really tell but I dont think that sm3 would result in such better results. Beware that the photos came from nvidia and not
an individual reporter/reviewer etc. Dont take PR ppl very seriously

 

[43st]

Yeah... I think that image is shenanigans. It was posted in the PF forum on SimHQ. The game isn't widely available yet so it may be sometime before someone can confirm the effect.

Anyway... How would one enable SM2.0b on an ATI card if Jarred says they're set at default off? His reference seems to imply that it can be turned on. I can't find any information at Rage3d on this so that's why I'm trying here.

 

[rbV5]

Originally posted by: Thera
Yeah... I think that image is shenanigans. It was posted in the PF forum on SimHQ. The game isn't widely available yet so it may be sometime before someone can confirm the effect.

Anyway... How would one enable SM2.0b on an ATI card if Jarred says they're set at default off? His reference seems to imply that it can be turned on. I can't find any information at Rage3d on this so that's why I'm trying here.

In CCC, advanced view>3D>API specific>Check "Enable geometry instancing"

 

[Pete]

A 9800P is SM2.0, not 2.0b. I think the feature in question is a vertex shader one called geometry instancing, which is technically relegated to SM3.0 cards, but which ATi can support. The problem is, developers can only detect ATi's support of it with a "hack," although after detecting it supposedly ATi cards operate the same as nV. I also think ATi's latest driver set, the Cat 4.10, doesn't support GI, so you may have to try or wait for another.

Man, that picture looks almost exactly like nV's Far Cry "SM2 vs SM3" picture. It's certainly possible that nV helped the dev out and produced a nV-specific IQ feature, but I'm skeptical, given nV's Far Cry shenanigans.

But as to vertex texture fetching, I'm not sure ATi's DX9 parts can do that, so this IQ difference may be permanent for ATi's current cards. Or is this part of GI, and thus supported by ATi?

Edit: And if ATi can't support this with the 9800 and earlier, maybe they can compensate with 3Dc? The nV whitepaper says PF went from bump mapping to vertex texturing for higher-res water. Maybe ATi can just implement higher-res bumps with 3Dc? I'm not sure if it can provide a comparable res boost, though.

 

[Drayvn]

I think u guys might be wrong about SM3 just being able to do things faster.

If u think about it, if the engine can run it faster, more detail can be added and will slow it down, but it will still run at a decent frame rate.

Far Cry could have more detailed textures with SM3 and SM2.0b, at the same frame rate as we did without SM3 and SM2.0b on. But they went ahead to increase frame rate instead. Meaning the length of the code was longer than SM2 could handle and so did everything in 4 passes, but with SM3 it did everything in 1 pass. But if u filled up the SM3 path or had more than that, then the frame rates would drop as it would have to do multiple passes to get it done.

Thats how u can make the image look better with SM3, it doesnt just make things faster.

In fact thats how most game engines work when being improved. Take the Quake 3 engine for instance, or course it has new features and stuff. But over the years, GPU and CPU power has increased tremendously, making it easier to run the engine faster. So they thought why not add more detail in, this uses up more CPU and GPU power meaning the frame rates will drop.

 

[rbV5]

I also think ATi's latest driver set, the Cat 4.10, doesn't support GI, so you may have to try or wait for another.

It was introduced in Cat 4.8 Link

 

[sbuckler]

SM3 can improve quality as well as speed, but so far all the games that *support* it have just used some of the features to speed up rendering. These features are mostly available in SM2b as well so X800 owners need not worry. However in the future things like high dynamic range lighting and displacement mapped textures would improve image quality substantially but that's not a simple patch, you'd need a whole new rendering path, and a different set of textures (for displacement mapping). Probably will only happen for the next gen engines (unreal 3 is the only one I know off that's in development and uses all these features).

SM2b supports 3Dc which allows for higher res textures which sounds useful but unfortunately (a) it's not part of the direct X 9c spec (b) it's not supported by nvidia hardware which will be used for graphics engine development because it has much more powerful new features. It might appear in some future games but only as a lesser option to displacement mapped textures which will look much better. What you really need is 3Dc compressed displacement mapped textures (if that's possible), but that will only happen when graphics cards support both features.

 

[Drayvn]

Neither was any of the other compression programs in the past, they brought it out (in fact it was designed by nV) and later on Microsoft approved it for their DX code. All ATi have done is improved on it. And it doesnt need anything to run it other than maps and textures and stuff.