Damn 2012 is a long time from now. A PC will have over 40X the GPU power over current consoles by that time. I doubt consoles will ever compete with high-end PC's again. They are getting too far behind. It is quite likely that the next-gen consoles will be a lot cheaper than the current gen was at launch. They could put in a 28nm 5870/GT300 equivalent with a 32nm 6 core CPU and have power consumption under 200 watts. That could actually be done next year. If they wait until 2012 another die shrink is possible making it have very low power consumption in the <125 watt range and easily sell it at a profit at $299. I see it as unlikely that they will use a GPU more powerful than the 5870/GT300 as it won't really be necessary. That would already give them 1080p with at least 4xaa. It says they are waiting becuase of the recession and I don't see why that is a good reason frankly as the economy might be better by the time it came out.
The initial plan for the PS3 was to have the Cell handle all of the graphics processing. I think that still may be the goal for the PS4 as well. Nvidia may lose Sony's business if for no other reason than that, assuming Sony can make that happen.
May even catch up in CPU power too, but then again, maybe not.
They will at launch, and due to their fixed hardware they will likely have clearly superior games at launch too. That will normalize after a while, then they will be where they are now, PC gamers arguing over 189FPS versus 392FPS and how much of a huge difference that makes
That would be a fairly big downgrade from the years old consoles in some aspects. So much so that certain games coming out wouldn't run properly.
Another shortcoming of PC gamers that they don't seem to grasp. Taking this perspective we should have been fine with a x1800 since that could run GLQuake just fine at 1080p with 4x AA. Reality is that Crysis is still a long way away from reality, we need way the hell more power then what we have now to handle 480p without AA if we want to get close to 'perfect' visuals. SW:Episode 3, that is the target, not Crysis
KK is gone, the PS4 will almost certainly be an evolution of the PS3. We will not be seeing anymore hyper exotic ideas for that platform for a while, you can bank on that.
Dang, is that news about a next-gen Nintendo portable real? How does Tegra compare with the PSP? You really can't tell from the specs...I mean ARM 11, decent but even a fast one isn't necessarily better than the dual R4000s in the PSP, and it says nothing about the GPU. The last-gen mobile OS X platform's definetly worse than the PSP (I mean aside from the lack of controls + activation issues!)
Still, I love that they may be doing something new finally!
EDIT: Also, I'm drooling over what a next-gen console might do. I mean if they really do aim for 2012, that's SEVEN years technology on top of the current generation. That thing STILL manages to graphically impress me. I hope we really do get that much more technology, and not a Nintendo-style deal.
For that matter, I hope we get a current gen-or next gen-Nintendo system. I wonder...if Nintendo released something like a current gen system, but actually a bit better, in like a year or two... wouldn't be as good as the true next gen systems, but I wonder if they could or would do that, or what the heck their plans are. I do love some of their games, so getting them on at least current gen hardware would be a nice change!
Still, I love that they may be doing something new finally!
EDIT: Also, I'm drooling over what a next-gen console might do. I mean if they really do aim for 2012, that's SEVEN years technology on top of the current generation. That thing STILL manages to graphically impress me. I hope we really do get that much more technology, and not a Nintendo-style deal.
For that matter, I hope we get a current gen-or next gen-Nintendo system. I wonder...if Nintendo released something like a current gen system, but actually a bit better, in like a year or two... wouldn't be as good as the true next gen systems, but I wonder if they could or would do that, or what the heck their plans are. I do love some of their games, so getting them on at least current gen hardware would be a nice change!
Tegra whips the PSP's rasterizer(akin to comparing the grapihcs chip in the PS2 to the graphics chip in the XBox, I don't know exactly how the CPUs stack up, not that familiar with that market) , Tegra2, which is the rumored chip to go into the next DS, is G92 based to give you an idea of how it compares.
Cookie Monster
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G92 based :Q
Maybe you meant G9x based, so performances levels of say MCP79 or maybe half of that. Even then, it would whip any "GPU" found in that market by a long shot.
Tegra1 is based on the ol NV4x core (and the other lot that makes up its SoC design) which makes Tegra2 quite a big jump in terms of graphics anyway. If the rumour is true that is.
We need more tegra based products!
Based on all the information I have seen, it is supposed to be G92 based, fully supporting CUDA and PhysX, although I would expect its' overall packaging will resemble something like the G96 more then the desktop G92 varriants.
Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
May even catch up in CPU power too, but then again, maybe not.
They will at launch, and due to their fixed hardware they will likely have clearly superior games at launch too. That will normalize after a while, then they will be where they are now, PC gamers arguing over 189FPS versus 392FPS and how much of a huge difference that makes
That would be a fairly big downgrade from the years old consoles in some aspects. So much so that certain games coming out wouldn't run properly.
Another shortcoming of PC gamers that they don't seem to grasp. Taking this perspective we should have been fine with a x1800 since that could run GLQuake just fine at 1080p with 4x AA. Reality is that Crysis is still a long way away from reality, we need way the hell more power then what we have now to handle 480p without AA if we want to get close to 'perfect' visuals. SW:Episode 3, that is the target, not Crysis
PC's have multiple GPU's now that weren't mature in 2005 so they will never achieve the equivalent of a high-end PC again since it can use 1200 watts. A console can't go over 200 watts unless they water cool it. On the CPU side consoles can compete and the 360's Xeon was better than anything a desktop PC could get at the time.
I don't see how die-shrunk current hardware would be a downgrade from 4 year old hardware?
You won't get perfect visuals with DirectX 11,12 or 13, and the next console will only be a step closer to realistic visuals. If DirectX features are maxed out with current hardware any faster hardware won't improve visuals to a significant degree. Direct X provides instructions- based on realistic features- for GPU's to process which in turn demands more power to run them. And you can't just jump to the end. Each console generation models reality better than the previous generation and the sales from that go to R&D so they can model even more features with the next gen after that but I'm sure you understand this.
The problem isn't with raw GPU power, it hasn't been since the Voodoo1 hit back in 96. The problem is you won't see a game make ideal use of that power because it wouldn't sell if it did(in terms of being fully optimized for one setup). Also, 1200 watts is a bit outrageous to put it mildly, you are running into serious potential issues with household circuitry at that point. Also on that topic, PCs need a lot more power to run then consoles even for directly comparable hardware(having everything integrated and a fully customized PSU makes things far simpler, no dealing with 12v-1.1v step downs etc).
Talking strictly about gaming, Cell still smacks around the i7 when fully utilized. Some games shipping now(UC2 as an example) already wouldn't be able to run on the i7(although if completely reworked you could get the same results, you just would have to place a lot more on the GPU).
In terms of visual improvements, DX11 doesn't give us anything over DX9 except the ability to do some things in a simpler fashion(IQ wise, nothing). Ignoring that all together though, the XBox is the only platform that is going to be running DX, the rest of the systems will have a custom API developed explicitly for their singular GPU.
Originally posted by: tomaccogoats
I think nvidia's pretty happy right now
http://brightsideofnews.com/ne...t-gen-nintendo-ds.aspx
that would be nice. nds has graphics hardly better than a super nintendo
Tesselation is going to be the next big step in graphics quality. No longer do organic or highly curved models have to look polygonal. It won't be like DX8 to DX9 or DX7 to DX8, but it does make things look noticeably nicer.
As for the cell, I think you give it way too much credit. It isn't robust enough for general purpose use. No OOE, Single precision optimization on the SPEs(which do just about all the work anyways, the PPE existing mainly to feed instructions to the SPEs), no branch predicting, etc.
It gives up way too mcuh to do what it is optimized to do which, by all means is a niche market, highly parallel single precision floating point calculations.
When I fiddled around with Cell back when it first came out, it was not a very good system. You are forced into manual control of the SPEs no matter what, High level languages(Perl, Python, Ruby) would always ignore the SPEs and only run on the single PPE. When I used it, the only language you could use that included control of the SPEs was C and that was all manual control.
In the end, the closest analogy I could get for the Cell was like using a F1 car as a daily driver. Great in a dick wagging contest, but truly, utterly shit when looked at from a general use, practical perspective. Yes, fully optimized, it's great, too bad you can't fully optimize it when trying to do general compute.
It's too big of an architecture change with too few benefits to gain a large portion of the general compute market and that is why it is ignored so much except in the PS3 and specialty applications.
I personally believe if you're going to do that, might as go all the way and just do GPU Compute. More performance gains for specialty applications and you're learning a new way to program anyways.
I think people are over estimating how powerful these console will be. Unless the PS3/360 start tripling there sales the winner will be Nintendo.
I just picked up my copy of UC2 and I have to say I'm a bit disappointed with the visuals. I like the "look" of the original. And the ingame cutscenes look nice but while playing it doesn't look that great (not as good as some of the reviews made it out to be). The one thing that's always disappointed me about the PS3 is the horrible aliasing and the low-res textures (and the games running at 720p doesn't help matters).
2012 is a long way off, there's no chance of seeing a 2.5+ year old 5800 in a new Xbox, we're looking at a minimum of a streamlined 7000 series caliber part. Yes, a 5800 would be overkill playing current 360 type games at 1080p, but that's the problem, a new system won't be just a resolution change. Crysis ultra high is still punishing the best hardware.
Also keep in mind, on a console there is much less correlation between resolution and needed graphical power, as games will be optimized to fully utilize the available resources however plentiful they are.
In a way tessellation will do the same on PCs, as you can 'simply' use the extra resources to increase the level of detail on the tessellated models until you hit 60FPS.
In a way tessellation will do the same on PCs, as you can 'simply' use the extra resources to increase the level of detail on the tessellated models until you hit 60FPS.
They never had any contract in first place - they only supplied the IP aka design, not actual chips (made by Sony itself.)
If someone doesn't earn shit that's Nvidia - the chips in DS cost next to nothing by default so go figure its profit margin...
Tesselation is going to be very good for PCs, utterly useless on the consoles. Hand optimized geometry is going to look better, and knowing exactly what resources you have available make it easy to optimize for one exact configuration.
I stated explicitly, and you even quoted it, that I was talking strictly about gaming.
Correct, and this is the type of advantage the consoles are not going to lose. A highly specialized processor that is only good at gaming makes perfect sense in a console, would suck horribly in PCs. That is just the nature of the platforms- EE was the same way.
On a global basis the PS3 has been outselling the Wii since the price cuts(including Nintendo's). Nin going after a new market obviously has worked very well for them, but due to this being a new segment the old business models don't work, it looks like at this point the Wii has no legs while the PS3 and to a much lesser extent the 360 seem to be picking up steam still. As of now the Wii still has a ways to go to hit half the PS2 installed base, this generation is far from over.
How the hell is the new one not better then the original? Honestly man, that caught me totally off guard
nVidia doesn't make the current DS chips, they are looking to get into the next generation. As far as the margins, no, they won't be large, but they aren't large in the chipset business either.
It depends on what DirectX or its equivalent will be out by then. If we are still on DX11 it won't need that much power. And a 5870 with a Crysis-level game that is written specifically for that hardware would run it just fine assuming they put a couple GB of RAM in it. Plus it's possible a $599 console would be hard to sell at that time if they use the latest tech. Would people prefer a $299 console that plays games like a high-end PC does now or a $599 console that will only look a little better? It depends which way MS/Sony goes this time. They may decide to change the console business model and actually make money on hardware like Nintendo has this generation. Of course we don't know that it will be 2012 anyway as that is what he speculated. There is a small chance it will be out next year.
Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
How the hell is the new one not better then the original? Honestly man, that caught me totally off guard
No I'm not saying the original is better...I'm just saying I like the "style"/"look" of the original. The new one looks more realistic but more bland also.
That would be one approach they could take. Sony would hand them their @ss, but it is one approach.
Until Shiggy retires, noone stands a chance of beating Nintendo at their own game, and both MS and Sony are fully aware of this.
There is zero chance the next generation of XBox will be out next year, nor the PS4. Last year the 360 made ~$5Billion in software licensing kickbacks, that figure should be roughly double that by 2012. The entire console model collapses if you push them out to close together, not to mention MS has a huge amount invested into Natal that they are going to want to see exploited(they are considering that a relaunch of the 360). I could see there being a very small chance of seeing it out in 2011, only if Sony continues to accelerate their market presence and look to topple them before then(as of right now it will probably be late 2012 before the PS3 surpasses the 360)- but I see that as a very small chance(maybe 5% at best).
Wow, that is certainly a different perspective. You are without a doubt the first person that I have seen that has taken that perspective on the game. Personally I thought being stuck in a jungle the whole game was a lot more bland then getting into all sorts of different environments, but I guess to each his own
seriously, 2012 is the date being thrown around here. Its 2009. It doesn't depend on anything except for GPU development cycles. Even if they go with a conservative GPU it would be at the worst the equivalent of the fastest 6000 series chip.
Anyone saying they'll go with something no more powerful than a 5000 series Radeon is just holding on to the lame justification that their super expensive gaming computer today will be just as powerful as a ~$299 console will be 2.5+ years from now.
Nintendo's Wii was a huge gamble, not many people remember or even realize it was their last gasp attempt to get them back in the game from a distant 3rd in the home console market. They couldn't afford to stay in the hardware arms race that Sony and Microsoft got bogged down in. Now that they've had a chance to really rake in the cash, I fully expect them to readdress the hardcore market they were pretty much forced to neglect.
Microsoft and Sony might change their tactics a little bit to mimic Nintendo's in order to expand their consumer base, but they won't stray from the hardcore base, it would be suicide to abandon it to go toe to toe with Nintendo.
NGC beat the original XBox in global sales. The XBox only really did well in the US, it was rather weak in Europe and an abject failure in Japan. Oh yeah, NGC actually made tons of cash too, and the NDS is by far the most popular gaming system still. The Wii was a very bold move for Nintendo, but it certainly wasn't one of desperation.
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