Athiests.. How do you explain the beginning of time?

[dawp]

who's to say that 'god' is nothing more than the earth under our feet? and the sun and all the other stars are, in turn, also living beings. and as you expand out, each gets more powerful and the most powerful are the super-massive black-holes at the center of each galaxy. if you go with this train of thought, there are multitude of 'gods'. more than you can count.


just thought I'd throw that into the mix, not that I really believe it, but who knows.

 

[HAL9000]

This is bad reasoning. Just because we know more about something doesn't make it any better / worse / only option.

I suppose no one should have considered the possibility of a car when we had bikes? Not knowing how something works doesn't make it not viable. I don't need to know how oxygen flows through my body to receive the effects.

True, but the possibility of a car is hugely different to the existence of a theoretical being. Just because we don't know does not mean that God is the logical answer. The logical answer is we don't know.

People thought the world was flat until they found out otherwise. This dosen't mean that the world being flat is the obvious solution until disproved.

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

I'm a spiritual person. I personally believe in 'God' or at minimum, a higher power.

If you don't believe in creationism, or some degree of it, how do you rationalize how time started? Has it always been?

If you believe everything must have a cause (start of time) how do you rationalize that God must have had no cause? Just because thinking he doesn't makes you feel all warm and fuzzy?

 

[soulcougher73]

And that's a valid question. Is "god" simply god of this universe and one among many gods controlling other universes, or is God an omnipotent being that created everything?

If there is no God and all of this happened by chance, then what's the point of being? Biologically, it's to reproduce, but consciously, why are we aware? Why do we have emotions, etc? Seems pointless if this is all chance, or some kind of godless alignment of information.

I'm being open minded here and that's why I asked the question in the OP. I'm trying to reason with myself.

Why does their have to be a point of being? Cant you just accept the fact you are here and live with it? Make the best of your life any way you see fit. As long as you are happy who cares

 

[Tweak155]

True, but the possibility of a car is hugely different to the existence of a theoretical being. Just because we don't know does not mean that God is the logical answer. The logical answer is we don't know.

People thought the world was flat until they found out otherwise. This dosen't mean that the world being flat is the obvious solution until disproved.

I'll agree that we logically don't know the answer.

 

[HAL9000]

The chances of the beginning of earth being coincidence is more probable than an Omnipotent being that oversees everything having created it. The chances of said omnipotent being existing are the same of the chances that a super intelligent alien creature creating life using scientific methods we as yet do not understand and yet few people are arguing for aliens over a religions notion of God. Neither are logical conclusions, merely potential theories with little evidence.

 

[HAL9000]

I'll agree that we logically don't know the answer.

Exactly, we don't and as logic is really the only basis for a conclusion in an argument like this as logic is not subjective. We don't know the answer, assuming an answer, be that answer an alien did it or God did it is not founded in logic. Now if you want to argue arguments that are not based in logic then unfortunately I can't participate as these basis' will be subjectively related to you rather than an objective argument that anyone can (theoretically) understand.

Phew... I may be missing full stops. Apologies

 

[darkxshade]

You are all just figments of my imagination... none of you really exist. I'm in a coma and I need to wake up in the real world before they pull the plug.

 

[TechBoyJK]

really good points guys!

 

[HAL9000]

You are all just figments of my imagination... none of you really exist. I'm in a coma and I need to wake up in the real world before they pull the plug.

I'm not, I'm the nurse next to your bed and your interpretting my voice as text on a forum for some reason, I'm just going to take a piss in your toilet if that's cool? [You give no answer] Cheers.

 

[manimal]

I checked the three ring binder but Zenu didnt get back to me in time for an answer...

 

[HAL9000]

really good points guys!

I love this subject I spent three years at uni making these arguments and it's always good to fun to hear new points of view.

 

[soulcougher73]

I personally believe the Easter Bunny created the Tooth Fairy, who then created Santa Clause, who then created bulk beef, who then created Man, who then created God.

I dont know how anyone could debunk that logic.

 

[frostedflakes]

Grade school thermodynamics would say the universe was always there because something cannot be created from nothing.


Of course not everything in grade school is 100% true. The Bohr model of the atom is flat out wrong but it's close enough to be worth learning.

And interestingly enough, the second law of thermodynamics implies that the universe has existed for a finite time, because if it had always existed entropy would be infinite by now and the universe would have succumbed to heat death. The first and second contradict each other with this subject. Obviously thermodynamic laws aren't enough to explain the origin of the universe.

 

[Tweak155]

Exactly, we don't and as logic is really the only basis for a conclusion in an argument like this as logic is not subjective. We don't know the answer, assuming an answer, be that answer an alien did it or God did it is not founded in logic. Now if you want to argue arguments that are not based in logic then unfortunately I can't participate as these basis' will be subjectively related to you rather than an objective argument that anyone can (theoretically) understand.

Phew... I may be missing full stops. Apologies

According to you it isn't founded in logic (or many other people). If God or the aliens came and said hello, you would all change your minds, however (I would hope...). The logic for something we just don't know is also subjective. Just because someone thinks it doesn't make sense doesn't mean everyone else has to.

 

[HAL9000]

I personally believe the Easter Bunny created the Tooth Fairy, who then created Santa Clause, who then created bulk beef, who then created Man, who then created God.

I dont know how anyone could debunk that logic.

Excuse me?! Your missing Chuck Norris, who was undoubtedly involved in there.

 

[HAL9000]

According to you it isn't founded in logic (or many other people). If God or the aliens came and said hello, you would all change your minds, however (I would hope...). The logic for something we just don't know is also subjective. Just because someone thinks it doesn't make sense doesn't mean everyone else has to.

What I'm saying is there are very few valid arguments for God that take the following form:

a + b = God

Where as there are any number of arguments that logically follow

a + b = We don't know.

 

[Ns1]

The $64,000 question is how you rationalize it. You think we have a problem with a ball of stuff exploding to form the universe, but you have no trouble with an all powerful invisible man in the sky that did it one day after breakfast because he was bored? How did your higher power get started?

This

 

[Kadarin]

I don't need to rationalize it. The human mind fears the unknown and so for our entire history humans have created myths and stories to explain that which we can't prove. I, however, am perfectly accepting of realizing that we know very little about our surroundings and only through scientific advancement can we learn more about them. So until that time, "I don't know" is an acceptable answer.

Best answer, IMO. We'll either know someday or we won't. "Rationalizing" it means that we make shit up in order to feel comfortable with not knowing.

 

[Tweak155]

What I'm saying is there are very few valid arguments for God that take the following form:

a + b = God

Where as there are any number of arguments that logically follow

a + b = We don't know.

Very few solid arguments that you or I may be aware of.

I still agree saying we don't know because as we know it, nothing can be proven for certain.

 

[soulcougher73]

According to you it isn't founded in logic (or many other people). If God or the aliens came and said hello, you would all change your minds, however (I would hope...). The logic for something we just don't know is also subjective. Just because someone thinks it doesn't make sense doesn't mean everyone else has to.

Of course people would change their minds. A new provable element would have been thrown into the equation and new theories would arise

 

[sandorski]

The Swiss invented Time. Everyone knows this.

 

[HAL9000]

Very few solid arguments that you or I may be aware of.

I still agree saying we don't know because as we know it, nothing can be proven for certain.

A valid point, If I hear a perfectly rational argument that sways me one way or another I'll go with it, until then rather than saying we don't know I'm saying no, in the same way that I don't believe in unicorns until proved otherwise, I'm not going to stay in the middle and say everything might exist.

 

[HAL9000]

The Swiss invented Time. Everyone knows this.

On the plus side they use it for good, they've got all the time in the world to create excellent chocolate and cheese.

 

[sandorski]

On the plus side they use it for good, they've got all the time in the world to create excellent chocolate and cheese.

It's a ploy. One day they'll change Bankers Hours and the non-Swiss Wealthy will be destroyed through Service Fees.