atheists

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Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
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Atheism is a belief that no deity exists.
No it isn't. It is the lack of the belief that a god exists among an individual's belief-set.

Accordingly, it is about the metaphysical and is related to theism (opposite side of the same coin).
The opposite of a belief in god is no belief in god, not belief in no-god.

More generally...

The opposite of "I believe X" is "I do not believe X." You think the opposite is "I believe not-X" and this is wrong.
 

lord_emperor

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2009
1,380
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I don't steal, rape and murder because I don't want those things done to me, isn't that a good enough reason?

But, I don't care if a billion universes are destroyed because there are an infinite number and the one I'm in is always one that is not destroyed.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
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Atheists aren't those who don't believe in God, but those who are annoyed that other people do

While that's somewhat accurate, not all would be that type. The vocal ones tend to be the annoyed ones, yes, but many also simply say "it's not for me, but if you choose that, cool."

It's more accurate to say Anti-Theists, of all varieties, are the ones who are annoyed by vocal about God. I changed the specifics because that also includes all Anti-Theists, as some Theists do agree that a belief in God should be personal, not a topic to be in the public mind (which, in the political sense, is the only way to practice true separation of Church and State - something we can't achieve because we are so religious as a country still).
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,940
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Atheism is not simply a lack of belief in God, it is the assertion that God does not exist.
Still false.

There is a subtle, but important, difference there. You may feel (as do I) that a complete lack of evidence supporting the existence of God makes the question of God's existence entirely uninteresting and irrelevant, but that is not the same as insisting that God does not exist.
I do not insist that "god" (in a general sense) does not exist. I can only assert with confidence that certain inconsistent god-concepts are not instantiated in reality.

Negative proclamations are logically no different than positive ones, and require the same burden of proof.
Also false. "I do not believe X" is not the logical equivalent of "I believe not-X."


To go back to Russell's teapot, it's the difference between saying "I have not interest in your teapot, as you've given me no reason to think about it" and "That teapot cannot possibly exist." The latter would require contrary proof, while the former does not.
You omitted the rational response "I do not believe your claims about the teapot are true."
 

MotionMan

Lifer
Jan 11, 2006
17,124
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Still false.


I do not insist that "god" (in a general sense) does not exist. I can only assert with confidence that certain inconsistent god-concepts are not instantiated in reality.


Also false. "I do not believe X" is not the logical equivalent of "I believe not-X."



You omitted the rational response "I do not believe your claims about the teapot are true."

You are rather dogmatic about your lack of belief in a deity.

;)

MotionMan
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
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Your #193 was just a restatement of arguments that already took place.
Please show me where each of the arguments in post #193 appeared elsewhere in the thread, and received responses from you.

...or just do the right thing, and respond to it directly.
 

MotionMan

Lifer
Jan 11, 2006
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Please show me where each of the arguments in post #193 appeared elsewhere in the thread, and received responses from you.

...or just do the right thing, and respond to it directly.

I will do the "right thing" and direct you to read the thread for my responses.

I do not believe it is necessary for me to repeat such things.

MotionMan
 

MotionMan

Lifer
Jan 11, 2006
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That's a response rather devoid of any rebuttal.

Anyways, it isn't inconsistent to have beliefs about atheism even while atheism is not a belief about gods.

Atheism is a rejection of beliefs based on as much evidence as those who have a belief (perhaps less). It is the opposite side of the same religious coin.

MotionMan
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,940
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I will do the "right thing" and direct you to read the thread for my responses.
I cannot find what doesn't exist. I have apparently found another disingenuous theist, however.

If I had a nickel...

I do not believe it is necessary for me to repeat such things.
You can't repeat things that have yet to be done.
 

MotionMan

Lifer
Jan 11, 2006
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I cannot find what doesn't exist. I have apparently found another disingenuous theist, however.

If I had a nickel...


You can't repeat things that have yet to be done.

I have spent a lot of time discussing this subject. I will not repeat myself because you came in late in the game. Go back a read the thread.

MotionMan
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,940
542
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Atheism is a rejection of beliefs based on as much evidence as those who have a belief (perhaps less).
Atheists reject the claims of theists because of insufficient evidence to warrant belief.

It is the opposite side of the same religious coin.
Repeating false assertions does not increase their truth. Not owning a car does not make you a different type of car-owner. Not playing basketball does not make you a certain class of basketball player. Not believing in a religion does not make you a religion of a different type.
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,940
542
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I have spent a lot of time discussing this subject. I will not repeat myself because you came in late in the game. Go back a read the thread.
I have, and no response of yours addressed my arguments in post #193. Here, I can repeat one from that post.

Moreover, theism isn't a religion. It is an attribute of many religions. In precisely the same way, atheism is not a religion. It is an attribute of some religions -- Mahayana Buddhism, for example.
In which post did you acknowledge or contest the fact that theism is not a religion? In which post did you acknowledge or dispute the fact that atheism is also not a religion because of it's symmetry with regard to theism vis a vis religion? I do not find that post in this thread, and it appears you are being dishonest.
 

Fausto

Elite Member
Nov 29, 2000
26,521
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This may have been pointed out, but the OP is clearly confusing atheism with nihlism.
 

MotionMan

Lifer
Jan 11, 2006
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Atheists reject the claims of theists because of insufficient evidence to warrant belief.

Some people believe in deities despite the lack of evidence. It's called faith. Atheists may believe that are right, but they really cannot be sure - that is also called faith (in science, logic, etc.)

Repeating false assertions does not increase their truth. Not owning a car does not make you a different type of car-owner. Not playing basketball does not make you a certain class of basketball player. Not believing in a religion does not make you a religion of a different type.

Except, again (if you had read the thread), these analogies all fail because they do not involve a belief system. One is not a non-believer in the existence of cars or basketball. A deity non-believer is very different than one who does not own a car.

MotionMan
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
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I don't steal, rape and murder because I don't want those things done to me, isn't that a good enough reason?

But, I don't care if a billion universes are destroyed because there are an infinite number and the one I'm in is always one that is not destroyed.

That's ultimately it. Ethics are out of a developed respect for man, and a natural respect for self-similar life. Naturally, this should include every single human being, because the natural inclination of life is to not extinguish the life of your own species (or that of a species that helps you out in some way), though many walks of life have dangerous competition for social dominance and/or mating purposes, but that's out of the individual's quest to better that around him, sometimes there ends up being an accident/setback.
However, primates evolved with a very competitive tribal instinct, and on some of the branches, including our species specifically, it ended up blossoming into an ugly fever of a very polar and, at the community/civilization level, a very dangerous divide of "with us as friends, or against us as sworn enemies" (ethics addresses granular level fairly well, doesn't entirely curb the behaviors of both mobs and the civilization [civilization/community as a social organism models, massive hive mind ... there are key words, use those in google or archive databases like jstor if you have access, should get something if you so choose...]). It's not always that radical, but it turns into ugly pissing matches and destruction fairly easy in various circumstances.
That, imho, has to be the reason why ethics is even a topic. It tries to address the gap in our behavior at the granular/individual level and that of our tribal level. It's ultimately a question of why we should, and whether we naturally do so, behave cooperatively with each other. It's a question that has no place even being asked, but it must be asked, because we have a natural instinct that remains from our evolutionary chain that ultimately, we all agree would be great to be without.
And ethics further butts its head into the picture when bioengineering has the potential to make inroads into such issues. There is strong evidence suggesting Theistic beliefs are at the core of the "ethical" concerns regarding bioengineering, specifically that of altering our own DNA to solve various natural issues. It'll be easily achieved in time, given the research funding is healthy enough - which at the moment, it is not. It's hard to raise funding on "ethically-controversial" research, and without strong inroads during research, advances do not occur at an optimal rate (imho).

It's nice to say we aren't the worst -- in regards to the aggressive polar tribal mindset -- among the currently living species in the primate family tree; it's easy to crown Chimpanzees for that "achievement." It's safe to argue we are on that podium, and it is not a podium we should grace our presence with... it should be above us, but it's ingrained in our genetics and has permeated our cultures throughout time; hell, we even foster it's growth in many ways.
 
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MotionMan

Lifer
Jan 11, 2006
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Look, I'll say this once nicely, but if you don't start making the distinction between what something can be like and what something is like, you're quickly going to lose the considerable respect I previously held for you.

I will stipulate that there are atheists that behave with religious fervor in opposition to theism, but these are some atheists, not just atheists.

Moreover, theism isn't a religion. It is an attribute of many religions. In precisely the same way, atheism is not a religion. It is an attribute of some religions -- Mahayana Buddhism, for example.

There is no requirement for atheists to practice a particular religion, however, and it is not only possible, nor in fact astonishingly easy, but actually most common to find atheists that are not religious in any way whatsoever.

I agree. Atheism is very much like a religion.

MotionMan