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Atheists Call 9-11 Memorial Cross "Grossly Offensive"

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...there had to be something that started replicating or there wouldn't be anything here.
1.) The above isn't true.

2.) If you don't believe that life has always existed, then you also believe that "life came from non-life." The only question that remains is how, and you're trying to pitch us on the idea that we should just blindly accept that the answer is "magic," and stop asking questions.

What I believe is totally irrelevant. Where is your evidence?
Why are you asking for evidence of something you also believe? Bit disingenuous, dont'cha think?
 
1.) The above isn't true.
How is that not true?
2.) If you don't believe that life has always existed, then you also believe that "life came from non-life." The only question that remains is how, and you're trying to pitch us on the idea that we should just blindly accept that the answer is "magic," and stop asking questions.
I'm not asking you to accept anything. I'm asking you for evidence.
Why are you asking for evidence of something you also believe? Bit disingenuous, dont'cha think?
Nice try.
 
You implied "therefore god" when you mention Intelligent Design. Everybody knows the ID movement was founded by groups trying to push a religious agenda into the classroom as science.
That is called a misrepresentation. I mentioned intelligent design because the "self replicating molecule" created in the lab was intelligently designed.

I'm not asking for anything other than evidence for your beliefs that life formed strictly through natural processes.
 
That is called a misrepresentation. I mentioned intelligent design because the "self replicating molecule" created in the lab was intelligently designed.

I'm not asking for anything other than evidence for your beliefs that life formed strictly through natural processes.

If I design a boulder, which rolls down a hill in a simulation, to see what happens when a boulder rolls down a hill, does that mean when a boulder rolls down a hill in a natural setting is "intelligently designed"?

The answer is no - I'm merely re-creating the circumstances for something to understand the mechanics behind it. That's the beauty of science - it works, and creates things which are reproducible.
 
That is called a misrepresentation. I mentioned intelligent design because the "self replicating molecule" created in the lab was intelligently designed.
Is that the type of "intelligent design" that you believe is responsible for life coming from non-life?

I'm not asking for anything other than evidence for your beliefs that life formed strictly through natural processes.
What wasn't natural about the creation of the self-replicating molecule mentioned above?
 
If I design a boulder, which rolls down a hill in a simulation, to see what happens when a boulder rolls down a hill, does that mean when a boulder rolls down a hill in a natural setting is "intelligently designed"?
Bolded another part of the experiment that was designed. The settings weren't "natural", they were designed to produce the results that they got. The molecules in the solution aren't just laying around in a natural setting. Some of them form in mutually exclusive conditions.
The answer is no - I'm merely re-creating the circumstances for something to understand the mechanics behind it. That's the beauty of science - it works, and creates things which are reproducible.
They know the mechanics behind it that is how the designed the molecule and solution to do what it does. Even then the results aren't very good. Less than half the molecule got copied.

The boulder analogy just falls over on itself. First, we do know that boulders form. We wouldn't need to create one to perform an experiment. What we don't know is that this molecule could ever form on it's own. It's designed, that is how it works as well as it works.
 
Bolded another part of the experiment that was designed. The settings weren't "natural", they were designed to produce the results that they got. The molecules in the solution aren't just laying around in a natural setting. Some of them form in mutually exclusive conditions.
Equivocation. There was nothing "unnatural" about the laboratory environment. There were no natural laws violated. There were no magical spells cast. You are simply superimposing a baseless distinction between a molecule floating in the ocean and the molecule floating in a petri dish. Guess what? Both molecules obey the same natural laws in both settings.


They know the mechanics behind it that is how the designed the molecule and solution to do what it does. Even then the results aren't very good. Less than half the molecule got copied.
Do you think DNA is a perfect replicator?

The boulder analogy just falls over on itself. First, we do know that boulders form.
Why do you think that is a point of contention?

We wouldn't need to create one to perform an experiment. What we don't know is that this molecule could ever form on it's own. It's designed, that is how it works as well as it works.
Well, yes, we did show that the molecule could be formed.

Which molecules do you think exist anywhere "on their own"?
 
You'll have to explain how this is relevant.
That surprises me very little.

There is no logical contradiction in an infinite regress, i.e. the negative integers. Therefore it does not follow that "something had to start replicating or we're not here."

That a natural process created life when there was no life.
That isn't what you asked me before. Why are you now moving the goalposts?

Something had to start replicating or we're not here.
Nope.
 
What I believe is irrelevant.
Actually, it is, because it seems you are being disingenuous, and your reluctance to be forthcoming about your own beliefs only reinforces that appearance.

Ok, a strictly unguided mechanistic process. Where a prior intelligence wasn't required.
Why are "unguided" and "mechanistic" the meaningful parameters?

How do you tell if a process is "guided" or "unguided"?

What is an "unmechanistic" process?

Define "intelligence."

If you cannot answer these questions in rigorous terms, you're just blowing smoke.
 
That surprises me very little.

There is no logical contradiction in an infinite regress, i.e. the negative integers. Therefore it does not follow that "something had to start replicating or we're not here."
No wonder I didn't know what you meant. In our universe (which looks very much like it had a beginning) you're saying replication may have always existed.

That isn't what you asked me before. Why are you now moving the goalposts?
You knew what I meant, you're just being a twat.
Yes
 
Actually, it is, because it seems you are being disingenuous, and your reluctance to be forthcoming about your own beliefs only reinforces that appearance.


Why are "unguided" and "mechanistic" the meaningful parameters?

How do you tell if a process is "guided" or "unguided"?

What is an "unmechanistic" process?

Define "intelligence."

If you cannot answer these questions in rigorous terms, you're just blowing smoke.
You're the one blowing smoke. The fact of the matter is that you know that you don't have any evidence of how life "created" itself through purely chemical reactions. You just believe it without evidence. That's basically my whole point.
 
Equivocation. There was nothing "unnatural" about the laboratory environment. There were no natural laws violated. There were no magical spells cast. You are simply superimposing a baseless distinction between a molecule floating in the ocean and the molecule floating in a petri dish. Guess what? Both molecules obey the same natural laws in both settings.
First, the molecule needs to exist. Secondly the molecule needs to exist in a solution with exactly the right molecules or it won't do anything. Thirdly, the solution in the lab may as well be "magic" because it would never exist in the real world.
Well, yes, we did show that the molecule could be formed.
Yes, by intelligent agents in a controlled environment.
 
First, the molecule needs to exist. Secondly the molecule needs to exist in a solution with exactly the right molecules or it won't do anything. Thirdly, the solution in the lab may as well be "magic" because it would never exist in the real world.
Yes, by intelligent agents in a controlled environment.

All kinds of elements and molecules exist in the real world - that doesn't mean there was some magic being, or "god of the gaps", that made it come to be.
 
All kinds of elements and molecules exist in the real world - that doesn't mean there was some magic being, or "god of the gaps", that made it come to be.
Do you have any clue what they used in the solution that these molecules half replicated in? In the real world you would have all kinds of molecules floating around that would just as easily bond instead of what they wanted to bond. In the lab all they had was what they wanted not the stuff that would make the reaction break. The solution they used couldn't exist in the real world.
 
All kinds of elements and molecules exist in the real world - that doesn't mean there was some magic being, or "god of the gaps", that made it come to be.
And you keep forgetting that I'm not asking anybody to accept God did it. I'm asking you on your own terms. Much like you asking me about Christian theology.
 
Do you have any clue what they used in the solution that these molecules half replicated in? In the real world you would have all kinds of molecules floating around that would just as easily bond instead of what they wanted to bond. In the lab all they had was what they wanted not the stuff that would make the reaction break. The solution they used couldn't exist in the real world.

Please explain to me why the solution they used couldn't exist in the real world.
 
And you keep forgetting that I'm not asking anybody to accept God did it. I'm asking you on your own terms. Much like you asking me about Christian theology.

That was already answered when Sandorski said that we don't know for sure but we have some ideas. We're working on testing those ideas, and if they don't prove to be true then we move on. What is wrong with that explanation?
 
We see that more complex life started to appear after less complex life. Thus we know we didn't start with complex life.

We also know that chemistry can make organic compounds, amino acids, and the elements needed would be abundant. The conditions on earth would mean the chemistry would happen. We have experiments showing this.

We don't know exactly how life started, but we can look at the chemistry that creates the building blocks of life, and after life started and how it evolves. But we don't know what the first life looked like or how it worked so we still have a ways to go before we know exactly how to create life from basic chemistry.
 
Same thing happened to feminists. I was a feminist until they went crazy as hell and sued for things like lowering the standards to be a fireman. I'll be the first to admit that I would rather have a 200lb man made of solid muscle to carry me out of a burning building. Maybe the standards were lowered when firemen noticed that many Americans are simply too heavy to carry. Muscular or not, there ain't no way to carry a 300lb fatty on your shoulder.

I wonder how many people actually read the constitution or bill of rights (or the bible). In plain English it says the government shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. The accepted interpretation is that this doesn't automatically keep the government out of all religious affairs, but merely prevents preferential treatment of one religion over another. Putting up a Christian memorial or a Jewish memorial should be totally acceptable as long as the government doesn't show unreasonable bias.

As a suitably apathetic atheist, I'm not as concerned with atheist representations being somewhat pretentious as I am with the same issues being had with feminism. Feminism has been a precedented, well-designed set of social conflict theories, since the term was coined. Even the whole "Third Wave" controversy was directed at its popular portrayals much more than its legitimate documentation, since newer feminist paradigms are just more comprehensive modernizations of older versions, IMO. I also suspect that "official" political representatives of feminism have been largely tainted by their corporate origins, if not somewhat deliberately (although I don't want to sound like a conspiracy nut, this is not uncommon as political deprecation tactic; most American political parties besides Democrats or Republicans have been affected by such things). Still, I have to give the present Anita Sarkeesian, Rebecca Watson, etc. era credit for being more subtle about their antithetically censorious implications than prior iterations of such things (just look at Jack Thompson; he was taken quite seriously, as a proponent of gaming bans, for quite some time, and he didn't even attempt to disguise his superficial, hardly even specious analyses of video games). Additionally, iconically ridiculous/hyper-offensive anti-feminist groups, most noticeably "men's rights movement", have been shown to make some pretty sneaky internet-based efforts to pose as feminists, often without directly serving to impugn them, as opposed to just influencing it surreptitiously (check out the recent "demmian" fiasco; this guy/girl RUNS the presumably official/primary Feminism subreddit, and he/she has been pretty substantively suspected of being an MRA, having stated some pretty adroit, ostensibly innocuous commentaries about hypothetically merging feminism and "men's rights", despite established intersectionality calling this into question, AS WELL AS being a co-moderator for a reddit directed at pedophiles, though I think it's still unclear why exactly he was doing that, or what his/her rebuttals are, if any exist.)

EDIT: the thing with demmian has been made much more obvious, since I last checked. His banning habits strongly favor MRAs over feminists (I was incredulous about this, since I was banned a while back for being genuinely and deliberately obnoxious, though very much a feminist), and most now recognize this deal for what it is.
 
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Please explain to me why the solution they used couldn't exist in the real world.
First, the nucleotides that they use in the solution aren't just sitting around. Even if they were there would be other molecules around that would screw up the replication. Cytosine for example is extremely unstable. But not only does this solution need to exist it needs to exist for long enough for these things to start replicating and making enough mistakes to get to more complex molecules.

Do you have any idea what is in this solution?
 
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