Atheists Call 9-11 Memorial Cross "Grossly Offensive"

[sandorski]

Or...?
The evidence exists you just don't like the evidence.

1) What?
2) What is it?

 

[buckshot24]

of course it isn't, but what is the cause?

Then don't call it nothing. Not knowing a cause isn't the same thing as something being causeless.

sure you don't, since it shows that your assumptions are incorrect.

Get real. Make sure you tell your girlfriend that you just love her particles next time you see her. She'll love it.

I don't know what happened, now there is lots of speculation based on what we do know.

I didn't ask that.

 

[Paul98]

Or how about the idea that all of spacetime exists, there isn't one "now" that the past and the future is another's "now", and equally real as my "Now".

 

[buckshot24]

1) I have been responding to you, perhaps I should stop?

About a centuries old proven fallacious argument.

3) "Eternal" itself is a function of Time. Without Time, it is a completely meaningless concept.

Looks like we're not getting anywhere. Why would something that is timeless not be considered eternal?

 

[Paul98]

Then don't call it nothing. Not knowing a cause isn't the same thing as something being causeless.
Get real. Make sure you tell your girlfriend that you just love her particles next time you see her. She'll love it.
I didn't ask that.

Lets put it this way, if I get a random number between 1 and 10, and get a 4. Is there a cause for me to get the specific number 4 over the other numbers? Now sure you have to get A number, but is there a cause for the specific number. Do you count randomness as a cause?

I will ask again, so what is she or anyone made of that isn't more than particles, physics, chemistry,... I really want to know what you think is "special" and outside of this realm.

 

[sandorski]

About a centuries old proven fallacious argument.
Looks like we're not getting anywhere. Why would something that is timeless not be considered eternal?

Let's cut to the chase and stop the run around. What is it that you propose was the cause of the Big Bang?

 

[Darwin333]

Given that all people are created by God and have intrinsic value outside of themselves it's quite easy to come to the conclusion that we shouldn't own slaves. However if they are just masses of hydrocarbons it would be more difficult to see the same thing.

I dunno bud, the bible seems to place very different value on different types of people.

 

[buckshot24]

Lets put it this way, if I get a random number between 1 and 10, and get a 4. Is there a cause for me to get the specific number 4 over the other numbers? Now sure you have to get A number, but is there a cause for the specific number. Do you count randomness as a cause?

No.

I will ask again, so what is she or anyone made of that isn't more than particles, physics, chemistry,... I really want to know what you think is "special" and outside of this realm.

Why are you asking me? Ask yourself. Why are you with this bag of molecules over any other one? Surely it isn't because of the make up of her matter vs some other female's as they would be indistinguishable. So ask yourself. Why are you with her if all she is is a collection of parts?

 

[Darwin333]

I think he was being general, and he does have a point.

Atheists are often critical, as am I, of mega church owners, but I will agree that all atheists seem to be concerned with is suing people and I don't see them contributing in any tangible way.

Religious organizations do a LOT of local community work.

Again, I give a lot of money and time to Children's Hospital in New Orleans. I see absolutely zero reason to form some sort of "atheist organization" to donate my time and money to so that you can "see" atheists doing stuff. That would be plain ignorant.

Atheists aren't exactly an organized bunch. Sure you have a few here and there, some only forums and such but other than that we don't form "atheist mega non-churches" that we all attend on Sunday to learn about, fuck I dunno "stuff" which gives us an opportunity to collect money from fellow atheists and organize charitable work. Instead most atheists find existing charities and donate their money and time to them. Would you say they contribute "less" than a religious counterpart who donates the exact same amount of money/time?

Anecdotal story: I did meet 4 atheists on a habitat for humanity project, not even sure how it came up but I walked in on the conversation. At the time there were roughly 15 people working on the site so a full 1/3. Does that mean atheists are over-represented in habitat for humanity charity work, of course it doesn't. It just means I met 4 of them on a project.

Lastly, I don't feel the need for my non-origination of atheism to seek credit for charitable work by slapping their atheist label on it. That isn't the reason that I personally do anything charitable and frankly would sort of turn me off if that was the goal of any organization. Charity is about helping others, it is not about furthering your own message. At least thats my opinion, you may disagree.

 

[buckshot24]

Let's cut to the chase and stop the run around. What is it that you propose was the cause of the Big Bang?

As a formal argument I'm not prepared to propose anything. I have my beliefs but that is another matter.

 

[Darwin333]

And again, selling slaves was punishable by death. And AGAIN, people voluntarily enslaved themselves so as to avoid starvation.

And AGAIN, we have listed numerous passages straight from the bible that says otherwise. Why would god tell you how to sell your daughter if it was punishable by death? Why would god say that he was going to personally deliver women as "spoils of war" (read: to become property of some men and be raped) if he was going to punish those partaking in his "gift" by death?

Sort of conflicting wouldn't you say?

 

[Darwin333]

You and I both know that nobody is ever going to hand us a peer review paper proving the existence of God. However, since you say that you're perfectly willing to potentially change your view, I have a little "scientific" experiment for you to try. It's very simple...just sincerely ask God, that if he exists, that he would make himself known to you in the next few weeks. I don't presume to know the mind of God...but if you are truly sincere and honest...I personally don't know how a loving God could deny such a request if presented in such a manner.

I have actually done this quite a few times to no avail. Like I said, I was born and raised a Christian. I didn't "change over" until I was an adult and after much consideration and reflection, including asking god to avail himself. It goes without saying that I didn't receive an adequate answer.

 

[Darwin333]

No, I'm Catholic, so it follows as such:

- In 1917, the Roman Catholic Church's Canon Law was officially expanded to specify that "selling a human being into slavery or for any other evil purpose" is a crime.

- In the Roman Church, universal positive ecclesiastical laws, based upon either immutable divine and natural law, or changeable circumstantial and merely positive law, derive formal authority and promulgation from the office of pope, who as Supreme Pontiff possesses the totality of legislative, executive, and judicial power in his person.[2] The actual subject material of the canons is not just doctrinal or moral in nature, but all-encompassing of the human condition.

You know that pope guy, the canon? Ohhhhhhhhhh yea. Atheists still remember the pope yes?

For what, 20 pages you guys try to hold water to an argument that is 90+ years old and has been laid to rest, for Catholics at least. Like I've been saying all along the only ones making a fuss over slavery in the bible, and all this other nonsense are the Atheists themselves. You guys are worse then the Jehovah's Witnesses.

I have always found it rather odd that the pope has more authority than the word of god himself.

 

[Retro Rob]

Again, I give a lot of money and time to Children's Hospital in New Orleans. I see absolutely zero reason to form some sort of "atheist organization" to donate my time and money to so that you can "see" atheists doing stuff. That would be plain ignorant.

I don't think I said Atheists don't give, but generally, they seem more concerned with suing people and are dedicated to Separating Church and State. I think their anti-religious zealotry usurps their community service, and many non-profits ask for help separating Church and State.

Atheists aren't exactly an organized bunch. Sure you have a few here and there, some only forums and such but other than that we don't form "atheist mega non-churches" that we all attend on Sunday to learn about, fuck I dunno "stuff" which gives us an opportunity to collect money from fellow atheists and organize charitable work. Instead most atheists find existing charities and donate their money and time to them. Would you say they contribute "less" than a religious counterpart who donates the exact same amount of money/time?

I agree about not needing an organization, but religious organizations are organized in this fashion to where everything is accounted for. It's just the nature of religion to handle things this way -- together, as a group.

This is the nature of how they work, so naturally, they donate in groups, preach in groups, etc.

Anecdotal story: I did meet 4 atheists on a habitat for humanity project, not even sure how it came up but I walked in on the conversation. At the time there were roughly 15 people working on the site so a full 1/3. Does that mean atheists are over-represented in habitat for humanity charity work, of course it doesn't. It just means I met 4 of them on a project.

Lastly, I don't feel the need for my non-origination of atheism to seek credit for charitable work by slapping their atheist label on it. That isn't the reason that I personally do anything charitable and frankly would sort of turn me off if that was the goal of any organization. Charity is about helping others, it is not about furthering your own message. At least thats my opinion, you may disagree.

I personally get irritated if they're trying to do this for publicity reasons because it's not genuine as it should be. But I am more inclined to believe the recognition is just a natural consequence of being out there and helping out.

However, I agree with you generally speaking.

 

[ThinClient]

Then don't call it nothing. Not knowing a cause isn't the same thing as something being causeless.
Get real. Make sure you tell your girlfriend that you just love her particles next time you see her. She'll love it.
I didn't ask that.

Not having evidence to support a conclusion on the cause is not justification for jumping to a supernatural conclusion. That's like cavemen claiming that god MIGHT exist because sometimes mountains spew this glowing, destructive, magic jizz.

 

[sandorski]

I don't think I said Atheists don't give, but generally, they seem more concerned with suing people and are dedicated to Separating Church and State. I think their anti-religious zealotry usurps their community service, and many non-profits ask for help separating Church and State.



I agree about not needing an organization, but religious organizations are organized in this fashion to where everything is accounted for. It's just the nature of religion to handle things this way -- together, as a group.

This is the nature of how they work, so naturally, they donate in groups, preach in groups, etc.



I personally get irritated if they're trying to do this for publicity reasons because it's not genuine as it should be. But I am more inclined to believe the recognition is just a natural consequence of being out there and helping out.

However, I agree with you generally speaking.

Ensuring the adherence to State/Church Separation is not being Anti-Religion.

 

[ThinClient]

I dunno bud, the bible seems to place very different value on different types of people.

I dunno, if he were an intelligent christian, he'd make the claim that god is not consistent in his wrath and rules. The Abrahamic covenant supposedly resides between the old testament and the new testament, making all the laws and rules and rituals in the old testament moot. Then he'd talk about how Jesus's Sermon on the Mount set down the new laws for the rest of eternity. He would actually concede, if he were educated on his own religion apparently, that the god of the old testament is nothing like the god of the new testament in ANY way.









...wait wait, not entirely in ANY way.



God's "only begotten" son (what, can't make another, Almighty?) was sent to earth to the middle of the damn desert to a huge mass of largely illiterate buttheads where Jesus would be brutalized to DEATH to "save" the souls of everyone before or since who believed in god. Certainly couldn't just, you know, GET ON WITH THE FORGIVING without bloodshed, but that's the kinda god you get in the bible: violent, rule-changing, inconsistent, angry, malevolent, capricious son of a bitch.











...but I doubt he'll make the Abrahamic covenant argument because he probably don't even know that the covenant exists. 🙂 (but he'll read an internet forum and get schooled on his own religion where he can hide his embarrassment and shame behind his keyboard.

 

[Retro Rob]

Ensuring the adherence to State/Church Separation is not being Anti-Religion.

Fine, and I can agree when thinking about it.

Separating religion and politics, IMO, is a good work.... but the simple fact is that they need to recognize that religious organizations are needed right now.

I hear way too many of you saying "we don't need religion to feed/clothe people and such"...well, religions should revoke their own tax-exempt status, close all the hospitals/food/clothing drives and let the 3% of the population of atheists handle all of that work or their own.

I am not a proponent of all organized religion, but shucks, I'd be lying if I said I didn't appreciate and welcome the work a lot of them do.

 

[sandorski]

Fine, and I can agree when thinking about it.

Separating religion and politics, IMO, is a good work.... but the simple fact is that they need to recognize that religious organizations are needed right now.

I hear way too many of you saying "we don't need religion to feed/clothe people and such"...well, religions should revoke their own tax-exempt status, close all the hospitals/food/clothing drives and let the 3% of the population of atheists handle all of that work or their own.

I am not a proponent of all organized religion, but shucks, I'd be lying if I said I didn't appreciate and welcome the work a lot of them do.

Publicly Managed Social Programs have done far more than Religious based ones.

 

[ThinClient]

I don't think I said Atheists don't give, but generally, they seem more concerned with suing people and are dedicated to Separating Church and State. I think their anti-religious zealotry usurps their community service, and many non-profits ask for help separating Church and State.

I volunteer at a food box location which doubles as a women's recovery "house".

I am the only atheist in the group because all the other volunteers attend the church that started both services. The group prays before they open the doors each week and I refuse because 1) praying is pointless, 2) there's 79,000 people waiting outside, and 3) I got shit to do.

When people thank Jesus when I'm stocking their food box, I remind them politely that Jesus isn't volunteering his time. You can thank ME instead, if they want to thank anyone, which isn't necessary.

Separation of Church and State means that asshole Bush wouldn't be able to restrict stem cell research to cure diseases and disorders on the order of magnitudes above what we can currently cure today. Without having to cite any other examples, this is a great example to use because many religious people believe that stem cells only come from aborted babies or that you're fucking with their soul or some shit. The Dark Ages is this exact argument, only the non-believers LOST the argument for about 400 years, being absolutely slaughtered by the religious (by Arab Muslims far more than Christians ever did, I'll give them that).

Since I live close to the volunteer site, I usually walk there each week. I've even walked a man home who lives 2 miles from the location because he couldn't carry on foot the 60lbs of food we gave him. Who carried it? Me.

Calling atheists morally or ethically corrupt or saying that the most outspoken of us spend all our time doing more harm than good is a bullshit cop out lie. The only zealots that exist are religious zealots.

 

[Retro Rob]

Publicly Managed Social Programs have done far more than Religious based ones.

Publicly managed programs aren't atheist-ran programs, which was my point. AFAIK, they aren't the ones saying they don't need religious based groups like militant atheists are.

 

[ThinClient]

Fine, and I can agree when thinking about it.

Separating religion and politics, IMO, is a good work.... but the simple fact is that they need to recognize that religious organizations are needed right now.

I hear way too many of you saying "we don't need religion to feed/clothe people and such"...well, religions should revoke their own tax-exempt status, close all the hospitals/food/clothing drives and let the 3% of the population of atheists handle all of that work or their own.

The only way for this to occur is if the religious people taking part in these actions were doing so motivated by nothing but being told that they should do this. Not in an effort for solidarity. Not in an effort to provide comfort to someone in need. Not in an effort to provide empathy. Not to assuage suffering. Not because it is morally and ethically right to preserve our race in an effort to gradually and continually improve on the quality of life for the whole of our species...

This is paints religious people as MORALLY and ETHICALLY CORRUPT.

I am not a proponent of all organized religion, but shucks, I'd be lying if I said I didn't appreciate and welcome the work a lot of them do.

Yeah? Now consider what it would be like if the world did this kinda stuff without a magical sky fairy telling them that they won't get into heaven without works because by works your fruits will be known and fruits of the spirit drive faith which is what's required, ultimately, for salvation. (cough CATHOLICS cough)

WHAT A CROCK OF SHIT.

Religious people are completely deluded. They shut down the thinking parts of their brains completely when it comes to religious hysteria.

 

[Retro Rob]

I volunteer at a food box location which doubles as a women's recovery "house".

I am the only atheist in the group because all the other volunteers attend the church that started both services. The group prays before they open the doors each week and I refuse because 1) praying is pointless, 2) there's 79,000 people waiting outside, and 3) I got shit to do.

When people thank Jesus when I'm stocking their food box, I remind them politely that Jesus isn't volunteering his time. You can thank ME instead, if they want to thank anyone, which isn't necessary.

Separation of Church and State means that asshole Bush wouldn't be able to restrict stem cell research to cure diseases and disorders on the order of magnitudes above what we can currently cure today. Without having to cite any other examples, this is a great example to use because many religious people believe that stem cells only come from aborted babies or that you're fucking with their soul or some shit. The Dark Ages is this exact argument, only the non-believers LOST the argument for about 400 years, being absolutely slaughtered by the religious (by Arab Muslims far more than Christians ever did, I'll give them that).

Since I live close to the volunteer site, I usually walk there each week. I've even walked a man home who lives 2 miles from the location because he couldn't carry on foot the 60lbs of food we gave him. Who carried it? Me.

Calling atheists morally or ethically corrupt or saying that the most outspoken of us spend all our time doing more harm than good is a bullshit cop out lie. The only zealots that exist are religious zealots.

That's good, and we need more, but I don't know how you extrapolated the bold out of my post.

 

[ThinClient]

Remember. [Good men do good things. Bad men do bad things. For good men to do bad things, that takes religion.]

 

[Retro Rob]

The only way for this to occur is if the religious people taking part in these actions were doing so motivated by nothing but being told that they should do this. Not in an effort for solidarity. Not in an effort to provide comfort to someone in need. Not in an effort to provide empathy. Not to assuage suffering. Not because it is morally and ethically right to preserve our race in an effort to gradually and continually improve on the quality of life for the whole of our species...

This is paints religious people as MORALLY and ETHICALLY CORRUPT.



Yeah? Now consider what it would be like if the world did this kinda stuff without a magical sky fairy telling them that they won't get into heaven without works because by works your fruits will be known and fruits of the spirit drive faith which is what's required, ultimately, for salvation. (cough CATHOLICS cough)

WHAT A CROCK OF SHIT.

Religious people are completely deluded. They shut down the thinking parts of their brains completely when it comes to religious hysteria.

Now I see you're nothing more than a bigoted jackass.

Why does it matter why someone is motivated to do something? As long as they do it, right?