Atheists Call 9-11 Memorial Cross "Grossly Offensive"

[Retro Rob]

There are lots of tests on the human brain, brain scans for those who think they talk to god, experiments for people to see "god" based on stimulating parts of the brain, or giving people "religious" experiences.

"DSF, I have no facts, but I have assumptions".

Wasn't that just easier to say? 🙄

 

[Paul98]

"DSF, I have no facts, but I have assumptions".

Wasn't that just easier to say? 🙄

There are lots of tests on the human brain, brain scans for those who think they talk to god, experiments for people to see "god" based on stimulating parts of the brain, or giving people "religious" experiences.

But since you don't even believe in evolution, you wouldn't know evidence if it hit you in the face.

 

[thraashman]

This brings an interesting point to my mind:

If what you say is true, and I assume you believe this....why not simply expose the myth for what it is....a myth?

When I was first told about Santa Clause, I could disprove that myth by waiting at the Chimney all night, or to disprove the Tooth Fairy, I could stay awake and wait for my pillow to be moved. My parents didn't make it illegal for me to disprove these myths...I wasn't told that I couldn't read the Hunchback of Notre Dame because its a myth.... yet the opposite is true in the real world.

If the Bible/God is a myth, expose it...lay it bare. Instead of banning it and putting secular minded people on school boards to MAKE SURE the Bible DOES NOT see the light to day in a classroom, let students read it without prejudice. Do you guys fight to keep Snow White, or Cinderella out of the hands of children the way you do the Bible?

What are you afraid of? What do you fear?

Actually the Bible is not banned in any schools. There is a difference between a school can't force a child to learn and follow a specific religion and a school bans that religion entirely. In fact it would generally be fully legal to teach the Bible in a public school in the context of a religious history or a philosophy style class. Those classes generally don't get taught in high schools though because they would take the place of other, more important classes to meet graduation criteria.

 

[Retro Rob]

Actually the Bible is not banned in any schools. There is a difference between a school can't force a child to learn and follow a specific religion and a school bans that religion entirely. In fact it would generally be fully legal to teach the Bible in a public school in the context of a religious history or a philosophy style class. Those classes generally don't get taught in high schools though because they would take the place of other, more important classes to meet graduation criteria.

My bad... when I say "banned", I mean people don't want it taught in school period.

No, religion needs to stay out of school, so I am in agreement with that.

All I am saying is that I don't hear people being encouraged to read and disspell the myth of the Bible using our own logic and reason as many secularists assert can be done, but what I see a whole lot of persuasion, either verbally or in print, telling people how they [general public] should feel about the book.

I say let people read it aside for personal biases -- if logic and reason will win out, we'd see the Bible and religion die out in mere decades.... but the more people fight to keep it out of school, and discourage people from reading it, it only looks like you either want to hide something or fear that people would actually read it.

This is all just my opinion, but its the way I currently see this issue.

Don't fight myths.... they are inherently self-destroying.

 

[Atreus21]

Back to this again? Who created the creator?

No one. Whatever the creator is, it must exist eternally. Outside of time. It's the only logical conclusion if cause and effect is true. There must be an uncaused cause at the basis of all existence.

 

[Atreus21]

Well, that's your problem. Emotions should not solely be used for decision making, but they are not the polar opposite of Reason/Logic in anyway.

It certainly wasn't wrong in their eyes. It certainly is wrong in ours.

So therefore it's not wrong as long as society agree with it. Slavery was wrong only when we started believing it was wrong.

Consider which is scarier between my moral anchor (God) and yours (society).

 

[Atreus21]

Suppose someone had you and the child as captives and said, if you don't have sex with the child, I'll rape the child then torture and kill him/her? What is the morally correct course of action in that situation?

That's a dodge. The question is not necessarily whether all examples of child rape are objectively wrong, but whether any of them are; that is, are there any actions which are objectively wrong.

Suppose, on the other hand, you had the choice to rape the child or not. If you did, would anyone consider that morally right?

Moral questions are only valid when it involves someone making a free choice. If I could cheat on my wife and get away with it, would you say I'm objectively wrong?

 

[cmdrdredd]

As an atheist myself, I get real tired of seeing atheists file suits over stupid shit like this. I mean really, it's not that big of a deal and they come off as asses in the process. Is putting a cross on a metal beam really infringing on your right not to believe in God?

These petty lawsuits give atheists a bad name.

Right and the other problem is some groups claim acceptance of all yet they are the least accepting of someone else's beliefs.

 

[thraashman]

So therefore it's not wrong as long as society agree with it. Slavery was wrong only when we started believing it was wrong.

Consider which is scarier between my moral anchor (God) and yours (society).

The problem is that the moral anchor of western society has historically been God. As we've gradually moved away from using God as a moral anchor, equality within the society has increased. Notice that the societies that still use god as their moral anchor are the least egalitarian.

 

[thraashman]

No one. Whatever the creator is, it must exist eternally. Outside of time. It's the only logical conclusion if cause and effect is true. There must be an uncaused cause at the basis of all existence.

Well evidence exists that shows that time is itself a function of the universe itself. Time can be affected by gravity and speed. And prior to the existence of the universe as we know it, time wasn't really a thing. It's honestly nearly impossible to explain because it's so damn complicated and in depth that I don't know enough to explain it. But saying "God did it" is a giant cop out when instead we can investigate and actually explain the whys and hows.

The uncaused cause as you put it is the universe itself. It's illogical to believe a god could exist before the universe and had to create it but not accept that the universe could have always been or that the predate of the universe was itself simply a more complex non divine thing.

 

[Atreus21]

The problem is that the moral anchor of western society has historically been God. As we've gradually moved away from using God as a moral anchor, equality within the society has increased. Notice that the societies that still use god as their moral anchor are the least egalitarian.

I can't agree with that. Can you offer some examples?

 

[Atreus21]

Well evidence exists that shows that time is itself a function of the universe itself. Time can be affected by gravity and speed. And prior to the existence of the universe as we know it, time wasn't really a thing. It's honestly nearly impossible to explain because it's so damn complicated and in depth that I don't know enough to explain it. But saying "God did it" is a giant cop out when instead we can investigate and actually explain the whys and hows.

The uncaused cause as you put it is the universe itself. It's illogical to believe a god could exist before the universe and had to create it but not accept that the universe could have always been or that the predate of the universe was itself simply a more complex non divine thing.

I respect that position, but I wish you'd explain it. Because to say that our comprehension of time is definitely and provably illusory is a game-changer.

Well, we know the universe is not infinitely old. The multiverse theory or infinitely expanding and contracting universe theory could challenge that. But I remember an interesting argument regarding a universe infinitely old: If the universe is infinitely old, then an infinite amount of time must already have passed, and therefore every possibility must've already been actualized...so why aren't we all dead?

Not the best argument, but it makes me scratch my head.

At the end of the day, I am a theist because I can't accept that everything is fundamentally meaningless.

Thanks for remaining civil. I have to get to studying.

 

[bshole]

Consider which is scarier between my moral anchor (God) and yours (society).

From what I can tell, God's moral compass is broken. He has no problem visiting death and misery on perfectly nice people while allowing evil people to thrive. If I was God and I created everything I certainly wouldn't create such a miserable existence for my creation.... it would be immoral. Now you want to nail your morals to this amoral at best, sadistic at worst being? What evidence do you have that God's morals are any better than ours?

 

[Darwin333]

Yes, significantly such. If there was an ultimate source for morality then it would be uniform across the planet. It clearly is not.

More importantly, imho, it should be uniform throughout time which clearly it hasn't been.

 

[thraashman]

I can't agree with that. Can you offer some examples?

Mississippi is rated as the most religious state in the US.
http://www.livescience.com/19314-religious-states-list.html

Yet just 2 years ago 46% (almost half) of the Republicans in that state felt interracial marriage should be banned.
http://www.aolnews.com/2011/04/08/46-percent-of-mississippi-republicans-want-interracial-marriage/

Also there are 13 states that have legalized marriage equality.
They rank as the 22nd, 23rd, 26th, 33rd, 36th, 39th, 40th, 42nd, 43rd, 47th, 48th, 49th, and 50th most religious states. None in the top 20.

 

[Darwin333]

Just a caveat, my freind...you can read the Bible as I can read a book on quantum mechanics, but that doesn't mean I understand it.

Fair enough but it wasn't just that I read the bible. I was raised Catholic and spent 12 years going to Catholic school. I even received the sacrament of confirmation in 6th grade, which was required for me to pass religion class and ultimately go on to the next grade. Frankly I, nor any of my classmates, where nearly mature enough to actually make the decision we were supposed to be making. Then you have the entire "kinda hard to call it of my own free will when it most definitely was not" thing. My point is, I didn't read it as an atheist nor did I read it looking for justification to be/become an atheist. I read it as a Christian and had quite an extensive amount of good Christian "training" under my belt when I did so.

 

[Darwin333]

Cause and effect implies it. Things don't (outside of theory) spontaneously sprout into existence without some cause.

So..... what caused god?

 

[Retro Rob]

Fair enough but it wasn't just that I read the bible. I was raised Catholic and spent 12 years going to Catholic school. I even received the sacrament of confirmation in 6th grade, which was required for me to pass religion class and ultimately go on to the next grade. Frankly I, nor any of my classmates, where nearly mature enough to actually make the decision we were supposed to be making. Then you have the entire "kinda hard to call it of my own free will when it most definitely was not" thing. My point is, I didn't read it as an atheist nor did I read it looking for justification to be/become an atheist. I read it as a Christian and had quite an extensive amount of good Christian "training" under my belt when I did so.

Yeah, I feel you on that.

The "required" part is what bothers me because you're not giving the kid a choice, see... that's why I personally believe parents need to simply WAIT until the person is old enough and mature enough to properly weight that sort of descision -- you may grow up and decide religion, or that particular one, isn't for you.

I can understand to some degree why non-religious people say theists need to allow children to make up their own minds. I am staunchly against infant baptism as well -- infants can't make desicions like this.

You seemed to make an informed decision, which is good.

 

[shira]

My bad... when I say "banned", I mean people don't want it taught in school period.

No, religion needs to stay out of school, so I am in agreement with that.

All I am saying is that I don't hear people being encouraged to read and disspell the myth of the Bible using our own logic and reason as many secularists assert can be done, but what I see a whole lot of persuasion, either verbally or in print, telling people how they [general public] should feel about the book.

I say let people read it aside for personal biases -- if logic and reason will win out, we'd see the Bible and religion die out in mere decades.... but the more people fight to keep it out of school, and discourage people from reading it, it only looks like you either want to hide something or fear that people would actually read it.

This is all just my opinion, but its the way I currently see this issue.

Don't fight myths.... they are inherently self-destroying.

Most people aren't capable of "logic and reasoning" (and, more importantly, most people aren't capable of separating their reasoning skills from their fear of death). So a strong majority of the population will always believe in the supernatural.

 

[shira]

So therefore it's not wrong as long as society agree with it. Slavery was wrong only when we started believing it was wrong.

Consider which is scarier between my moral anchor (God) and yours (society).

How can your moral anchor possibly be God? Has God spoken in your ear and told you what's right and wrong? And if you tell us that God's morality is what's written in the Bible, then you're admitting that your morality is based on what human beings have written in the bible and what human beings have interpreted those writings to mean.

You can't escape that fact that morality ultimately comes down to what humans think is moral.

 

[Retro Rob]

Most people aren't capable of "logic and reasoning" (and, more importantly, most people aren't capable of separating their reasoning skills from their fear of death). So a strong majority of the population will always believe in the supernatural.

So basically, logic and reason can't do away with the "myth" of God, then, yet, this is the basis of atheists arguements. 🙄

What can make people drop this myth, in your opinion?

 

[bshole]

So basically, logic and reason can't do away with the "myth" of God, then, yet, this is the basis of atheists arguements. 🙄

What can make people drop this myth, in your opinion?

When they can accept that their life is meaningless. The myth gives meaning to an existence that is utterly pointless in the cosmic scheme of things.

 

[Retro Rob]

When they can accept that their life is meaningless. The myth gives meaning to an existence that is utterly pointless in the cosmic scheme of things.

Even if I accepted that life is meaningless, still, that doesn't make God a myth....it just makes your life "meaningless".

Please, pick your self up, dust off, and try again...

 

[sandorski]

This brings an interesting point to my mind:

If what you say is true, and I assume you believe this....why not simply expose the myth for what it is....a myth?

When I was first told about Santa Clause, I could disprove that myth by waiting at the Chimney all night, or to disprove the Tooth Fairy, I could stay awake and wait for my pillow to be moved. My parents didn't make it illegal for me to disprove these myths...I wasn't told that I couldn't read the Hunchback of Notre Dame because its a myth.... yet the opposite is true in the real world.

If the Bible/God is a myth, expose it...lay it bare. Instead of banning it and putting secular minded people on school boards to MAKE SURE the Bible DOES NOT see the light to day in a classroom, let students read it without prejudice. Do you guys fight to keep Snow White, or Cinderella out of the hands of children the way you do the Bible?

What are you afraid of? What do you fear?

Let's get 2 or 3 people together and ask for Anything in Jesus name and see what happens.

 

[sandorski]

So therefore it's not wrong as long as society agree with it. Slavery was wrong only when we started believing it was wrong.

Consider which is scarier between my moral anchor (God) and yours (society).

What kind of Anchor is it? It never said a thing against Slavery. Hell, it even gave a suggested retail price.