At the end of Obama's 4 year term, who will be more responsible for the debt? Bush or Obama?

[Freshgeardude]

Originally posted by: dphantom
Bush of course. It will take Obama at least 8 years to clean up so nothing can possibly be BO's fault until at least then. /s

even if obama spends a trillion bucks, your probably going to say the same thing

 

[ZeGermans]

option 3, capitalism.

 

[Liberator21]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: Liberator21

Originally posted by: Harvey

Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

Do you hear what your saying? I mean really?

Obama is taking us to Socialism. Name one, JUST ONE country who has adopted this system and been prosperous, let alone SURVIVE.

BUAHAHAhahahaha!1!! Thanks. I needed a laugh. :laugh:

First, I doubt whether anyone who would post such a stupid statement has a clue any of the multiple definitions of the word, "socialism," but if you do, start by posting yours.

Second, if you're going to quote my post, you may want to include enough of the context to keep the meaning of what I said. The complete paragraph was in response to another member's post minimizing the horror of condoning torture. I said:

Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. If we EVER allow ourselves to forget the fact that OUR leaders commited such horrific acts of torture as waterboarding, and that they did so in our name, it won't really matter whether we're standing in bread lines. This will no longer be the United States of America.

The sentence you quoted is actually paraphrases George Santayana (1863-1952), who wrote in his Reason in Common Sense, The Life of Reason, Vol.1, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

The only things you've managed to torture are logic, reason and meaning. :roll:

Thanks, I'm glad you got a chuckle. Yet strangely you didn't answer any question or make any informative answer, other than berating me in a useless plight of self-defense.

So let me answer yours like a sensible poster. My broad definition of Socialism is the political theory of a government controlled ownership of the means of production for that state. Generic? Let me narrow it down for you. As a socialist state emerges, free enterprise and individual liberty slip to the wayside. Under the guise of socialism, where we all get free health care and the government will take care of us, there is not much incentive for business owners or entrepreneurs or venture capitalists to actually inject the market with capital. Almost all is payed for under the assumption of garnering taxes on the people to pay for the large burdens that are now created.

Every country that has adopted Socialism (that I can think of off the top of my head, to be fair) has eventually seen the erosion of personal rights and the poverty rate increase, as a large percentage of any given population are in fact not tax payers. That thereby redistributes the wealth (as Obama claims he will) as the working/middle class now has to be taxed to support the impoverished or non-tax payers - and this redistribution only increases as people figure out that they don't have to work towards success (or even work at all) because the government will take care of them.
---

And about taking your quote out of context. I read that after I read post after post of you insinuating that Bush and his political affiliation were the root cause of all these problems, failing to see that Obama's "solution" is actually burdening the U.S. to the point of collapse (hyperinflation anyone?) and that throwing money at a problem and injecting money for dramatic, unnecessary reforms in the name of necessity (health care) or justice (Gitmo) is adding to this burden. Perhaps junior senator should wait a little longer than 5 or 6 months before trying to change every system to a radically different one and let the economy get straightened out?

So forgive me if you honestly had NO IDEA what I was alluding to (the proliferation of socialist systems of other countries) - hence the "history repeating" - obviously you were very confused judging by the overly defensive, snarky link to George Santayana that I was, in fact, not referring to. Thank you Harvey, I hope you see fit to actually address the questions in the future instead of insulting and over-stating generic liberal rhetoric.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: themusgrat

Originally posted by: Harvey
Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. If we EVER allow ourselves to forget the fact that OUR leaders commitede such horrific acts of torture as waterboarding, and that they did so in our name, it won't really matter whether we're standing in bread lines. This will no longer be the United States of America.

Dude, you really need to take a step back and chill. Just like Obama isn't solely responsible for the economy right now, Bush isn't responsible for everything we did during his 8 years. Not that I'm excusing it. But if "such horrific acts of torture such as waterboarding" are the worst that Bush had done, he'd be the best president ever. You really look like a tool coming in here and uselessly attacking Bush for torture (lol) when the thread is about the economy.

Harvey looks like a tool every time he posts.

Irony of the week awarded very early this week to FNE, and themusgrat shows a terrible lack of any moral sense with his approval and minimization of torture.

If he'd limited his comments to the issue of brinig up torture in an economic thread it'd be a different situation, but he didn't, he made the very approving comments on torture.

'Power tends to corrupt', and as our armchair citizens are able to 'approve of torture' of strangers far away without any price, morality is essential - and lacking in him.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: Liberator21[/i]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: OCguy

As there is no shifting blame for the economic damage Obama is doing to ours.

Has Obama STARTED any wars based on LIES, lately? Has he authorized or ordered anyone to commit acts of torture in our name? :shocked:

Get back to us when you can name anything worse, let alone more costly to our nation, than that. :|

I'm a clueless partisan hack that really has no concept in reality, only propaganda.

I don't care about having a reasonable discussion about reducing future Federal Debt.

My friends and I only want to outrage any discussion and work diligently toward shifting responsibility from Bush to Obama for the current exceptional mess we've done to ourselves and the World.

 

[themusgrat]

Originally posted by: Harvey
No, but he, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Gonzales and others ARE directly responsible for committing war crimes and crimes against humanity, including torture. This isn't just my opinion. Bush and Cheney have admitted responsibility for authorizing those heinous acts with Gonzales' written approval.

Only if our past Presidents include the likes of Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Pol Pot. You fail at history.

That's where I started my replies in this thread. If you don't think the Bushwhackos' war of LIES in Iraq and the damage they have done to the good name and credibility of the United States of America haven't damaged our economy you haven't been paying attention.

In general, most presidents condone things such as murder and mass killings if it will save America a war, or face. I mean haven't you ever read Tom Clancy? But no, torturing war prisoners in an attempt to save American lives isn't really all that bad in the grand scheme of things. Wrong, yes. But I'll be honest, I'd torture, I'd kill people to protect my friends and family, just like most Americans if they were honest with themselves.

That's not to say that I'd in any way condone some of the things any past president has done, but still, you're overreacting. And you still look like a tool because torture really has nothing to do with the economy, no matter what you want to think about it. I mean seriously, has this subject not been hashed over a million times? Useless bushbashing starts to get a little old sometimes, it really does. As far as the thread goes, Bush's economic policies were mostly on the level, he wasn't great, he wasn't horrible. Of course he overspent because of retarded things like a little war in Afghanistan and Iraq, but as far as managing the economy in general goes, he did fairly well. Whether Obama will do any differently is something to be seen. He definitely won't live up to his ideals, or at least the ideals he told the country about when he got elected, I just hope that he'll be able to stop raising our deficit. But I'm not so optimistic. Not that it matters 1 whit what you or I think on the subject, this really is a useless topic for anything other than pointless arguing.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: soccerballtux

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: themusgrat

Originally posted by: Harvey
Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. If we EVER allow ourselves to forget the fact that OUR leaders commitede such horrific acts of torture as waterboarding, and that they did so in our name, it won't really matter whether we're standing in bread lines. This will no longer be the United States of America.

Dude, you really need to take a step back and chill. Just like Obama isn't solely responsible for the economy right now, Bush isn't responsible for everything we did during his 8 years. Not that I'm excusing it. But if "such horrific acts of torture such as waterboarding" are the worst that Bush had done, he'd be the best president ever. You really look like a tool coming in here and uselessly attacking Bush for torture (lol) when the thread is about the economy.

Harvey looks like a tool every time he posts.

Personal callouts not allowed dude...tone it down...

Why not? Certain mods whose name begins with "H" are allowed to do it. Fair play

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Liberator21

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: OCguy

As there is no shifting blame for the economic damage Obama is doing to ours.

Has Obama STARTED any wars based on LIES, lately? Has he authorized or ordered anyone to commit acts of torture in our name? :shocked:

Get back to us when you can name anything worse, let alone more costly to our nation, than that. :|

Why yes, it is very possible that he has started a war based on lies. Sucking up to the Muslims in Turkey by claiming we are not a Christian nation is a lie. If he was speaking strictly as a futurist (he wasn't) then that may be true, but history tells another story. I know many people who are outraged day after day because of what he's doing. Why should we apologize to them for being prosperous and unaccepting of their faith as a national one, when that faith directly caused the deaths of over 3,000 people on 9-11. And don't come back with a "well our faith caused the deaths..." BS because we didn't do what we did based on our religious orientation.

You speak of torture (detestable) as if morals are in your agenda, but even this month Obama designates it Lesbian Gay Transgender PRIDE month or whatever its called... I just don't understand. I know there's a difference, but its strange with you types - just pick and choose the morals that suit you on any particular day to get your demented point across.

Was Bush perfect? Heck no, but the EMINENT COLLAPSE OF THE WORLD was not his doing. Obama's a smart man, head of the Harvard Law Review Board... yeah, that's smart. But what is his solution to our problem? Throw endless amounts of money down a huge rat hole like that will magically heal us. FDR did this, and what happened? No, don't look in your elementary text book because it is in fact very distorted. The recession became the Great Depression and the best estimates are it took nearly a decade undoing what FDR did. Same thing with this president, only bigger.

The fact of the matter is that junior senator from arguably the most corrupt state in the union can't hang with any real solution, so just throw money at it like there's no tomorrow, meanwhile push like hell to further your own agenda while the world looks in angst at the collapsing economy. I mean come on, Socialism? Harvey, your really for that? And Government ran health care? Do you know what happens when Canadians can't get the care they need because of endless waitlists and substandard care? They come to the United States, because universal health care is broken. Why do I mention this? Because in the middle of a sever recession the last thing we need is to spend even more billions transforming a system that virtually no one in the world can match, let alone surpass.

So to end that rant, at the end of Obama's 4 year term (it will be only 1 term) HE will be ENTIRELY responsible for this mess.. Oh, and the first two years when the Democrats controlled both Houses of Congress as well.

That may be true, but at least he wont have waterboarded. Thats infinitely more important.

 

[SunSamurai]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: themusgrat

Originally posted by: Harvey

Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. If we EVER allow ourselves to forget the fact that OUR leaders commited such horrific acts of torture as waterboarding, and that they did so in our name, it won't really matter whether we're standing in bread lines. This will no longer be the United States of America.

Dude, you really need to take a step back and chill. Just like Obama isn't solely responsible for the economy right now, Bush isn't responsible for everything we did during his 8 years.

No, but he, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Gonzales and others ARE directly responsible for committing war crimes and crimes against humanity, including torture. This isn't just my opinion. Bush and Cheney have admitted responsibility for authorizing those heinous acts with Gonzales' written approval.

Not that I'm excusing it. But if "such horrific acts of torture such as waterboarding" are the worst that Bush had done, he'd be the best president ever.

Only if our past Presidents include the likes of Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Pol Pot. You fail at history.

You really look like a tool coming in here and uselessly attacking Bush for torture (lol) when the thread is about the economy.

That's where I started my replies in this thread. If you don't think the Bushwhackos' war of LIES in Iraq and the damage they have done to the good name and credibility of the United States of America haven't damaged our economy you haven't been paying attention.

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Harvey looks like a tool every time he posts.

:lips: my (_!_)

The polls speak for themselves. Looks like Obama is responsible for it. =]