AT recommends eschewing SLI

[NYHoustonman]

Originally posted by: Rollo
I don't know that this thread was necessary, but the op is entitled to his opinion.

This thread is at least as important as some of your other recent threads, IMHO.

Fair and Balanced

Hint: I'm biased

While I wouldn't argue against you for video forum mod as you obviously have the experience and knowledge to be one, you most definetly are not balanced, and you acknowledged this yourself. So I hope you aren't serious about your signature :x.

 

[Tanclearas]

Originally posted by: KristopherKubicki
SLI is basically hedging your upgrade path, and pretty much goes against AT's entire "buy what you need today for today" mentality. SLI = Buy today what you might use tommorow!!!!

Kristopher

This is a rather elitist view. Not all of us can afford $1000+ in video cards in one shot. However, there are some of us that can afford a $500 video card one month, and another $500 (or perhaps $400 by the time of purchase) card in another 2 or 3 months.

I find it increasingly disturbing that many well-known and (now questionably) well-respected hardware sites are expressing rather closed-minded viewpoints, especially when they don't reinforce that their comments are opinion only and not fact. As this thread clearly demonstrates, Anandtech's SLI comments are being used as "proof" that the SLI upgrade path is not a wise one.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: southpawuni

Originally posted by: Rollo
I don't know that this thread was necessary, but the op is entitled to his opinion.

Need better proof as to what kind of mod Rollo would be?

a terrible one . . . MOST of his threads aren't "necessary" 😉

aren't you the guy that compared Rollo to Jesus? :Q
:thumbsdown:

Rollo will never be a mod . . . on AT

and the author of the AT article is also entitled to his opinion on SLI as a bad upgrade path . . . wrong . . . but entitled.
😀

 

[KristopherKubicki]

This is a rather elitist view.

Hardly. My entire point was don't get suckered into buying a video card now in the hopes of using it in SLI if that video card is going to cost just as much, if not more down the line. What if we had all bought GeForce 5900 Ultra's two years ago under the premise that SLI would effectively provide a stable upgrade path for all those 5900 Ultras that would be readily purchaseable for $100 in 2005. Obviously, that didn't happen, and it's not going to happen with 6800 Ultra either.

If you look back to pretty much all of our price guides, we've never recommended SLI motherboards unless the cost was teh same for a non-SLI version. I don't really know why this thread was started recently as I have never found the need to recommend SLI when the majority of buyers will never purchase a second card -- and that is well documented for almost a year now.

SLI DOES make sense if you're going to buy a high volume video card that will exist in a few years still and hopefully cost less than it does now. But even with that logic, who is to say NVIDIA's next generation 6200 equivalent doesn't beat the piss out of a dual 6600GT configuration and cost less than buying a second 6600GT in the first place? Speculating on future availability, pricing and performance always always dissapoints.

Kristopher

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: KristopherKubicki

This is a rather elitist view.

Hardly. My entire point was don't get suckered into buying a video card now in the hopes of using it in SLI if that video card is going to cost just as much, if not more down the line. What if we had all bought GeForce 5900 Ultra's two years ago under the premise that SLI would effectively provide a stable upgrade path for all those 5900 Ultras that would be readily purchaseable for $100 in 2005. Obviously, that didn't happen, and it's not going to happen with 6800 Ultra either.

If you look back to pretty much all of our price guides, we've never recommended SLI motherboards unless the cost was teh same for a non-SLI version. I don't really know why this thread was started recently as I have never found the need to recommend SLI when the majority of buyers will never purchase a second card -- and that is well documented for almost a year now.

SLI DOES make sense if you're going to buy a high volume video card that will exist in a few years still and hopefully cost less than it does now. But even with that logic, who is to say NVIDIA's next generation 6200 equivalent doesn't beat the piss out of a dual 6600GT configuration and cost less than buying a second 6600GT in the first place? Speculating on future availability, pricing and performance always always dissapoints.

Kristopher

So . . . you think it is wise to "save $20" on your MB and eschew the OPTION of an SLI "upgrade"?
:Q


i think the extra $20 is good insurance. 😉

 

[KristopherKubicki]

So . . . you think it is wise to "save $20" on your MB and eschew the OPTION of an SLI "upgrade"?

Probably. I would actually say definitely if you plan to purchase a 6800GS, since they won't be around next year. Or if the difference is $0 between motherboards.

Kristopher

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: KristopherKubicki

So . . . you think it is wise to "save $20" on your MB and eschew the OPTION of an SLI "upgrade"?

Probably. I would actually say definitely if you plan to purchase a 6800GS, since they won't be around next year. Or if the difference is $0 between motherboards.

Kristopher

i see . . . then i definitely disagree with you . . . from the very beginning - when SLI was announced - i saw it as an unclear upgrade path . . . but at least i would have the option IF there was a "hot deal" on a second card. 😉

edit: i would not pick a specific example but am speaking of SLI in general . . . personally, i'd get a 7800gt with the possibility of a 2nd one [if there was a good deal and depending on what G71/g80 are like]

 

[Creig]

I don't know... Even if you aren't planning on running SLI with current generation video cards, you still might want to be using an SLI capable board in case you think you might be going SLI with the NEXT generation.

And you will have an easier time selling your board later in FS/FT. I'm fairly certain that SLI boards there go for a little bit more than non-SLI boards, so the $20 difference between new SLI/non-SLI will be whittled down even further.

 

[Kalessian]

A friend of mine had a spare 6600GT lying around. I asked him if I could borrow it until he decided what he wanted to do with it. He said ok.

My point is, since it no longer matters that the brand must be identical, SLi is convenient to have. I never did get that 6600GT, he got another idea in his head, but even if I had gotten my hands on it for a month it would have been sweet, since I don't feel like buying current generation.

 

[gsellis]

Just observing from ATers who do most of the SLI work, there is no 'future proofing' with SLI at all. The tendency seems to fall into upgrading soonest on the next best SLI release (excluding our nVidia tester who gets a 'discount' 😉 ) instead of then sticking with the hardware over a longer term. This is a behavioral thing and not a fault of the hardware. SLI/Crossfire is becoming the cosmetic surgury of gamers. 😀 So, more to the point, avoid the trap of trying to buy more hardware before you really need it. BUT, the stockholders of both ATI and nVidia do thank you. 😀

 

[BenSkywalker]

I would actually say definitely if you plan to purchase a 6800GS, since they won't be around next year.

I'm looking over reviews that bothered to do SLI tests with the 6800GS and so far the numbers I have been seeing indicate that the 6800GS SLId is faster then a single 7800GTX the majority of the time at settings those setups would see- the only exception being HL2. Not talking about the 7800GT, the 7800GTX.

From the article-

We had heard that only EVGA would be building the new king of value, and then only until the first quarter of next year.

If you got those two bits of information from the same source you may want to take them with a grain of salt. The XFX 6800GS is available now.

I'm trying to figure out how going with 6800GSs in SLI would be a bad option for anyone looking at a 7800GTX. Cheapest GTX on the Egg is $463 shipped, even figuring on the extra $20 for a SLI mobo 6800GSs in SLI are still cheaper- and they are faster in every game save HL2. I guess I just can't figure out why they wouldn't be considered a better deal- win nearly every bench and cost less [/b]and[/b] have an identical feature set....?

 

[deadseasquirrel]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
I guess I just can't figure out why they wouldn't be considered a better deal- win nearly every bench and cost less [/b]and[/b] have an identical feature set....?

The 7800-series has Transparency AA, handles HDR better, and has lower power consumption, so the feature set isn't exactly "identical".

But, given all of that, I agree with you on everything you said. Which is why I'm still using my SLI 6800GTs I bought back in January. I expected a single new-gen card to beat out the previous gen mid-high SLI, but, so far, it doesn't. Maybe the 512GTX will.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: Creig
I don't know... Even if you aren't planning on running SLI with current generation video cards, you still might want to be using an SLI capable board in case you think you might be going SLI with the NEXT generation.

And you will have an easier time selling your board later in FS/FT. I'm fairly certain that SLI boards there go for a little bit more than non-SLI boards, so the $20 difference between new SLI/non-SLI will be whittled down even further.

QFT!

 

[lifeguard1999]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

I would actually say definitely if you plan to purchase a 6800GS, since they won't be around next year.

I'm looking over reviews that bothered to do SLI tests with the 6800GS and so far the numbers I have been seeing indicate that the 6800GS SLId is faster then a single 7800GTX the majority of the time at settings those setups would see- the only exception being HL2. Not talking about the 7800GT, the 7800GTX.

From the article-

We had heard that only EVGA would be building the new king of value, and then only until the first quarter of next year.

If you got those two bits of information from the same source you may want to take them with a grain of salt. The XFX 6800GS is available now.

I'm trying to figure out how going with 6800GSs in SLI would be a bad option for anyone looking at a 7800GTX. Cheapest GTX on the Egg is $463 shipped, even figuring on the extra $20 for a SLI mobo 6800GSs in SLI are still cheaper- and they are faster in every game save HL2. I guess I just can't figure out why they wouldn't be considered a better deal- win nearly every bench and cost less [/b]and[/b] have an identical feature set....?

It depends on the game, resolution, AA, AF, etc. Serious Sam II at anything less that 1600x1200 8xAA 16xAF shows that a 6800GS in SLI is slower than a 7800GTX. Doom3 and F.E.A.R and BF2 are just the opposite and supports your view.

 

[ArchAngel777]

Originally posted by: KristopherKubicki

This is a rather elitist view.

Hardly. My entire point was don't get suckered into buying a video card now in the hopes of using it in SLI if that video card is going to cost just as much, if not more down the line. What if we had all bought GeForce 5900 Ultra's two years ago under the premise that SLI would effectively provide a stable upgrade path for all those 5900 Ultras that would be readily purchaseable for $100 in 2005. Obviously, that didn't happen, and it's not going to happen with 6800 Ultra either.

If you look back to pretty much all of our price guides, we've never recommended SLI motherboards unless the cost was teh same for a non-SLI version. I don't really know why this thread was started recently as I have never found the need to recommend SLI when the majority of buyers will never purchase a second card -- and that is well documented for almost a year now.

SLI DOES make sense if you're going to buy a high volume video card that will exist in a few years still and hopefully cost less than it does now. But even with that logic, who is to say NVIDIA's next generation 6200 equivalent doesn't beat the piss out of a dual 6600GT configuration and cost less than buying a second 6600GT in the first place? Speculating on future availability, pricing and performance always always dissapoints.

Kristopher

Kristopher was writing from a practical view point. I am sure he understands that someone people may use it for an upgrade path, but more often than not, most people will not be using SLI as an upgrade path. If someone is going to be spending $1,000 - $1,200 for two video cards, chances are they are also going to be upgrading their motherboard and processor as well.

I am pretty sure that if we did an accurate poll, we would find that most people who have SLI motherboards do not run SLI and probably never will with the motherboard they are currently using.

 

[deadseasquirrel]

Originally posted by: lifeguard1999
anything less that 1600x1200 8xAA 16xAF shows that a 6800GS in SLI is slower than a 7800GTX.

Anyone who buys SLI and plays at anything lower than what you listed is wasting their money. SLI, in most games, doesn't even wake up until you hit 16x12.

At a $400 price point total for 2, it's cheaper and performs better than a GTX at $60 more (at high resolutions with AA/AF). That's pretty impressive.

 

[flexy]

We also generally do not recommend SLI as an upgrade option. The main benefit of multi-GPU technology these days is to increase the maximum performance beyond the fastest single card on the market. ATI and NVIDIA have kept upgrade cycles fairly consistent over the past few years. It makes sense to spend money on a card that will bring increased performance and more features to a system when a new generation of GPU comes out rather than augmenting an aging card with another of the same type. Another argument against SLI-as-upgrade for the 6800 GS in particular is that we have no idea how long the card will be in production.

:thumbsup:

 

[BenSkywalker]

Kristopher was writing from a practical view point.

No, I would have to say on this point he was trying to cover Derek for misleading readers to a fairly absurd level. Clearly a 6800GS SLI setup right now is the best 'single card' priced solution available to consumers for the money spent, and by a decent margin, and Derek completely dropped the ball analyzing this element. As more, obviously better more thorough, reviews come in we are seeing a clear trend whenever they test 6800GS in SLI- it is a better solution then a single 7800GTX and it is a cheaper solution- even factoring in the added cost of a SLI mobo.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

Kristopher was writing from a practical view point.

No, I would have to say on this point he was trying to cover Derek for misleading readers to a fairly absurd level. Clearly a 6800GS SLI setup right now is the best 'single card' priced solution available to consumers for the money spent, and by a decent margin, and Derek completely dropped the ball analyzing this element. As more, obviously better more thorough, reviews come in we are seeing a clear trend whenever they test 6800GS in SLI- it is a better solution then a single 7800GTX and it is a cheaper solution- even factoring in the added cost of a SLI mobo.

Wow.

After looking at that TechReport article, two 6800GSs make a pretty strong case for themselves at $400 cost!

I hadn't seen that review before, thanks Lifeguard, nice find.

 

[BFG10K]

It depends on the game, resolution, AA, AF, etc. Serious Sam II at anything less that 1600x1200 8xAA 16xAF shows that a 6800GS in SLI is slower than a 7800GTX.

In addition if any websites had bothered to benchmark greater than 1600x1200 the 7800GTX would likely pull ahead thanks to its extra optimizations over the NV4x at high resolutions.

 

[deadseasquirrel]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

It depends on the game, resolution, AA, AF, etc. Serious Sam II at anything less that 1600x1200 8xAA 16xAF shows that a 6800GS in SLI is slower than a 7800GTX.

In addition if any websites had bothered to benchmark greater than 1600x1200 the 7800GTX would likely pull ahead thanks to its extra optimizations over the NV4x at high resolutions.

Actually, AT did. And it shows that you're right on. In BF2, for example on that page, at 16x12 4xAA, the 6800-series SLI pretty much matches the GTX. But at 20x15 4xAA, the GTX wins by 30%.

With the GS being cheap, and 2 of them costing less than a GTX, one could make a case for putting them in SLI and having GTX speeds. However, all the GTX needs to do is drop a few dollars and make that a moot point. And, when you figure in power usage, noise, heat, lack of features such as TAA, and poor performance at resolutions higher than 1600x1200, many buyers would think that $60 premium for the GTX over the GS SLI is worth it even right now. Can't say I would blame them either.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: deadseasquirrel

Originally posted by: BFG10K

It depends on the game, resolution, AA, AF, etc. Serious Sam II at anything less that 1600x1200 8xAA 16xAF shows that a 6800GS in SLI is slower than a 7800GTX.

In addition if any websites had bothered to benchmark greater than 1600x1200 the 7800GTX would likely pull ahead thanks to its extra optimizations over the NV4x at high resolutions.

Actually, AT did. And it shows that you're right on. In BF2, for example on that page, at 16x12 4xAA, the 6800-series SLI pretty much matches the GTX. But at 20x15 4xAA, the GTX wins by 30%.

With the GS being cheap, and 2 of them costing less than a GTX, one could make a case for putting them in SLI and having GTX speeds. However, all the GTX needs to do is drop a few dollars and make that a moot point. And, when you figure in power usage, noise, heat, lack of features such as TAA, and poor performance at resolutions higher than 1600x1200, many buyers would think that $60 premium for the GTX over the GS SLI is worth it even right now. Can't say I would blame them either.

While this is certainly all true, many people don't have a monitor that does more than 16X12 comfortably. No 19-20" LCD is at more than 16X12, and a lot of CRT monitors top out there for a comfortable refresh rate.

If the X850 Crossfire could have done 16X12 on either LCD or CRT, it wouldn't have been nearly as big of a deal.

 

[jiffylube1024]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: Creig
I don't know... Even if you aren't planning on running SLI with current generation video cards, you still might want to be using an SLI capable board in case you think you might be going SLI with the NEXT generation.

And you will have an easier time selling your board later in FS/FT. I'm fairly certain that SLI boards there go for a little bit more than non-SLI boards, so the $20 difference between new SLI/non-SLI will be whittled down even further.

QFT!

So you're quoting him because he says you may not run SLI now, but who knows what the future holds? You're Mr. "Buy video equipment for now not the future."

Flippedy floppedy Rollo. There you go again, which side will you take tomorrow?

So here's the Rollo score:

SLI? Good to buy for the future. SM 3.0 - great for the future (but only if it includes Vertex Texture Fetch, of course 😉 )

This thread about Anandtech recommending steering clear of SLI ecept on high end? Not necessary (see his post on page 1). HardOCP declaring shimmering issue meaningless - of the utmost importance. Nevermind this (to paraphrase: 'ATI doesn't want to sell any Crossfire X1800 cards') and this (some friendly helpful advice: wait for the 512MB 7800GTX. Surprise, surprise).

Image Quality? Of huge importance when it pertains (pertained) to FP24 vs FP32. Regarding high quality AA and AF: of minor, insignificant importance.

Radeon X8xx cards - crap because they're "essentially three year old technology" and SM 3.0 may mean something in the future.

Far Cry image quality errors on NV40/G70? Insignificant. Sacrifice bug (who plays this besides Ben?)? Of huge importance and showing ATI's driver team's collective failings.


That's not fair and balanced. You're a walking cliche Rollo - you're conditioned to a Pavlovian level to love Nvidia. You salivate at the 512MB GTX and you shun the 512MB X1800XT and R580 (should it ever arrive). Your position is so biased it's to the point of absurdity. Your 'Fair and balanced' farce is good for comedic value - I'll give you that, but anybody who actually believes that tripe needs to have their heads examined.

--------------

Personally, I also think the 7800GT and GTX are by far the best value for your money right now. $300 for a 7800GT, and a bit over $400 for a GTX; that kills average street prices on the X1800XL and X1800XT at the moment. But the Pavlov example rings true - anytime a keyword like "SLI" is mentioned, you guys pile on the bandwagon to dismiss any negative claims towards an Nvidia product so fast that I think the rear axle is going to snap!

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: jiffylube1024

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: Creig
I don't know... Even if you aren't planning on running SLI with current generation video cards, you still might want to be using an SLI capable board in case you think you might be going SLI with the NEXT generation.

And you will have an easier time selling your board later in FS/FT. I'm fairly certain that SLI boards there go for a little bit more than non-SLI boards, so the $20 difference between new SLI/non-SLI will be whittled down even further.

QFT!

So you're quoting him because he says you may not run SLI now, but who knows what the future holds? You're Mr. "Buy video equipment for now not the future."

Flippedy floppedy Rollo. There you go again, which side will you take tomorrow?

So here's the Rollo score:

SLI? Good to buy for the future. SM 3.0 - great for the future (but only if it includes Vertex Texture Fetch, of course 😉 )

Image Quality? Of huge importance when it pertains (pertained) to FP24 vs FP32. Regarding high quality AA and AF: of minor, insignificant importance.

Radeon X8xx cards - crap because they're "essentially three year old technology" and SM 3.0 may mean something in the future.

Far Cry image quality errors on NV40/G70? Insignificant. Sacrifice bug (who plays this besides Ben?)? Of huge importance and showing ATI's driver team's collective failings.


That's not fair and balanced. You're a walking cliche Rollo - you're conditioned to a Pavlovian level to love Nvidia. You salivate at the 512MB GTX and you shun the 512MB X1800XT and R580 (should it ever arrive). Your position is so biased it's to the point of absurdity. Your 'Fair and balanced' farce is good for comedic value - I'll give you that, but anybody who actually believes that tripe needs to have their heads examined.

--------------

Personally, I also think the 7800GT and GTX are by far the best value for your money right now. $300 for a 7800GT, and a bit over $400 for a GTX; that kills average street prices on the X1800XL and X1800XT at the moment. But the Pavlov example really sticks true - anytime a keyword like "SLI" is mentioned, you guys pile on the bandwagon to dismiss any negative claims towards an Nvidia product so fast that I think the rear axle is going to snap!

Wow, what a load of pure, unadulterated crap!

I give Creig a QFT because he correctly notes that you can buy a SLI motherboard for very little more money and give yourself the option to go SLI if you choose, and you launch into some bizarre, OT evaluation of my motives.

 

[jiffylube1024]

The rest of my post stands, notwithstanding your clarification. Fair and Balanced is bad comedy, and frankly it's getting old Rollo.

And even in your reply there you can't help but deceive, if only slightly. "Very little more money" for an SLI board is actually quite significant in terms of percentages, which makes a difference to many users without loads of cash.

The DFI Lanparty UT NF4 Ultra-D (most popular enthusiast brand by far) goes for $169.99 + tax here in Canada. That's $195.50 after tax in Ontario (15%). The DFI Lanparty UT NF4 SLI-DR goes for $219.99. That's $253 post taxes. A difference of almost sixty dollars or 29%. Hardly a trivial amount for many people.

SLI is a decent bit of change extra.

Similarly (all pre-tax figures), the Asus A8N-E is $132, the A8N SLI is $158, the A8N SLI-Deluxe is $195 and the A8N SLI premium is $211. Quite a bit more for an SLI board, especially if you want a few more goodies as well.

When you're buying two 7800GTX's, then $60 is nothing. When you're the average Joe running a 6600GT or a 6800GT (or even a 7800GT), the price difference requires some deliberation. Especially since the money saved can be put towards a better card (one 7800GT is faster than two 6800GT's in most cases, and is not only cheaper, but saves you even more money if you opt not for an SLI board).