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At least 8 people murdered in Ohio, including children

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Ichinisan said:
Oh. You mean the conquest ethos that had been well established for thousands of years?

You act like it's uniquely American, but those early settlers were more British/French than "American."
Click to expand...

No, I didn't say a thing about it being uniquely American, just that our expansionist policies played a big part in defining American culture.
 
fuzzybabybunny said:
You're gonna wanna do more research and analysis, especially about the current state of places like Australia. And talk to more people from other countries. And if possible live in more places. I've been globetrotting for seven years now. Raised in Ohio. Being in the shoes of someone from another country looking into America from the outside opens your eyes to just how unbalanced and ridiculous America is.

I honestly don't really care anymore and the rest of the world just sees the next Massacre as just another "America being America" thing. America will continue to be America. And other countries will continue to *not* have the problems that America does. No amount of killings or the examples of successes of other countries will change the American mindset. Even my Swiss friends look at America and think we're doing the gun ownership thing wrong, in addition to lots of other, less tangible things surrounding the unhealthiness of the American psyche.

And I even like guns.
Click to expand...

how nice of you to presume i don't speak to people outside of the states. or i haven't traveled. I've had conversations similar to this with people in other countries in person while staying at their home. It's odd to the ones i've talked to because they've never had the ability to enjoy shooting as a hobby or ability to defend themselves. They do have a tendency to see guns as the problem, but when asked why they would blame the tool, they seemed not to agree it was more the user, but they still don't care for guns. which is fine, not everyone will. but that doesn't mean those few should be able to take away a freedom we've had and should still have.

Talking to the swiss is something i haven't done personally. I hadn't gotten into shooting when i visited Switzerland. I've seen comments on the internet from people claiming to be swiss, though i have no idea if they are so i'm not going to comment on them. but i will say all countries are subject to mass shootings. even the swiss.

http://world.time.com/2013/03/04/why-two-mass-shootings-will-not-change-swiss-gun-culture/

I'll post this link, though i'm not sure how valid the data is. I'm posting it because it does point out that people, in general, don't seem to view the stats and adjust or understand the population difference.

http://www.ijreview.com/2015/12/348197-paris-attack-claim-mass-shootings/


for Australia:
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/425021/australia-gun-control-obama-america

http://www.mintpressnews.com/the-facts-that-neither-side-wants-to-admit-about-gun-control/207152/
this site points out a lot of stats to prove these bans and confiscations work only show numbers after the ban. they don't show a time before the ban. which usually seems to show it fluctuating and had low points before. the link's section on why gun control will never work points out some of the bigger problems with violence in general in the first two-four sentences.
http://www.google.com/url?url=http:...wa-bjg&usg=AFQjCNHo4f6XbZkIj5etrEFSFpQ9JX84Pw

that link is to a pdf from supposedly from the Australian parliament. I didn't read it, i only wanted to take a look at the graphs. notice how there was already a downward trend before the confiscations? hell, non firearm suicide rates were climbing sharply before while firearm suicide rates were starting to fall. to me, with out further research, indicates they had other issues during those periods of the spikes.

I can see how some people consider "mass shootings" as an American thing, but it isn't something that is unique to us nor did we create it. If people chose to see it as "America being America" thing. America will continue to be America." then that's on them for not realizing these things happen in other countries.
 
Paladin3 said:
No, I didn't say a thing about it being uniquely American, just that our expansionist policies played a big part in defining American culture.
Click to expand...

Like the British, French, and Spanish? Seeing as we weren't Americans at the time. We were still under the rule of what ever country we came from or territory we lived in when on this continent.
 
fuzzybabybunny said:
You disagree that firing five+ shots and hitting five+ people in a store robbery isn't a mass shooting? Look at their definition again. They say nothing about just firing shots in the air.
Click to expand...

ok looking at their site again. https://massshootingtracker.org/about#massshooting
"We do not consider the motive of the shooter, or whether he or she shot up a school, workplace or street corner. Our mission is to record all incidents of mass gun violence."

but this includes gang violence. i hope you agree it doesn't matter what gun laws or bans you put into place, these events will not stop. I don't think they will decrease either as they will still be able to get guns. Please don't say they will not because i will feel trying to discuss this further with you will be pointless and/or give me a headache.

"We include the shooter's death because suicide matters and means matter. Ignoring the shooter's death is not logically consistent with research that tracks the death toll of firearm suicides in our society."

This doesn't seem logical. Yea, the shooters life was ended, even if by suicide, but why should it count in the stats? Nor should it be counted if the cops shot the shooter. though by their on definition, it shouldn't count because the cop would be a different person. firearm suicide shouldn't be included. if suicide was their only intention, there are other ways. It may or may not be relevant to the above quote, but i'll add here that murder suicide of a family should not be counted either. Not sure if they do count that, but they probably do. Why should it not be counted? because it was likely done in private and not having a gun would probably not have stopped it from happening.

As for all of the news stories, one thing seems clear when clicking on them. they are involving a lot of criminal based activity. one of them were on federal agents trying to arrest a fugitive at a motel. why should these things be listed and given the same weight? laws nor bans will have any noticeable effect on them. they do point out we, though we ar not alone, do have a serious "violence" problem. it's not just guns. these people would be violent no matter what tools they had with out looking into why they are violent. With out working to find and fix the root cause, it isn't going to matter what you do.
 
JoeBleed said:
how nice of you to presume i don't speak to people outside of the states. or i haven't traveled. I've had conversations similar to this with people in other countries in person while staying at their home. It's odd to the ones i've talked to because they've never had the ability to enjoy shooting as a hobby or ability to defend themselves. They do have a tendency to see guns as the problem, but when asked why they would blame the tool, they seemed not to agree it was more the user, but they still don't care for guns. which is fine, not everyone will. but that doesn't mean those few should be able to take away a freedom we've had and should still have.

Talking to the swiss is something i haven't done personally. I hadn't gotten into shooting when i visited Switzerland. I've seen comments on the internet from people claiming to be swiss, though i have no idea if they are so i'm not going to comment on them. but i will say all countries are subject to mass shootings. even the swiss.

http://world.time.com/2013/03/04/why-two-mass-shootings-will-not-change-swiss-gun-culture/

I'll post this link, though i'm not sure how valid the data is. I'm posting it because it does point out that people, in general, don't seem to view the stats and adjust or understand the population difference.

http://www.ijreview.com/2015/12/348197-paris-attack-claim-mass-shootings/


for Australia:
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/425021/australia-gun-control-obama-america

http://www.mintpressnews.com/the-facts-that-neither-side-wants-to-admit-about-gun-control/207152/
this site points out a lot of stats to prove these bans and confiscations work only show numbers after the ban. they don't show a time before the ban. which usually seems to show it fluctuating and had low points before. the link's section on why gun control will never work points out some of the bigger problems with violence in general in the first two-four sentences.
http://www.google.com/url?url=http:...wa-bjg&usg=AFQjCNHo4f6XbZkIj5etrEFSFpQ9JX84Pw

that link is to a pdf from supposedly from the Australian parliament. I didn't read it, i only wanted to take a look at the graphs. notice how there was already a downward trend before the confiscations? hell, non firearm suicide rates were climbing sharply before while firearm suicide rates were starting to fall. to me, with out further research, indicates they had other issues during those periods of the spikes.

I can see how some people consider "mass shootings" as an American thing, but it isn't something that is unique to us nor did we create it. If people chose to see it as "America being America" thing. America will continue to be America." then that's on them for not realizing these things happen in other countries.
Click to expand...
Your links are pretty light on substance. They don't delve deeper into the actual changes enacted by gun control measures. They also don't make any distinctions between "firearms." The Australian links also don't account for population growth. Yes, firearm ownership is now up to pre-buyback levels. That's a lot of single shot rifles and collectables. I have a couple Aussie friends who are getting rid of their guns because it's honestly too much a pain in the ass to keep and use them. Well, this was three years ago. They probably already got rid of their guns. Self defense isn't a valid reason to acquire a firearm.

And yes, criminals will get less guns with proper gun control measures. That's one thing that most people don't get. "A criminal, by definition of being a criminal, will always get guns no matter what" is a laughable oversimplification but a convenient mantra for those who don't bother to think deeper on the matter. Ironically, they use the same mantra to call others stupid. Look to free market effects, or more specifically, black market pricing. It's all just simple supply and demand and price curves.

The young Swiss know that their military is a joke and the reason for their required military service is also a joke. That doesn't stop them from looking at Americans and seeing our gun policies (or lack of) as crazy when taking the American populace and culture into account. The Swiss look at our gun culture and just think it's retarded. They have stricter gun regulations, *less* gun ownership, mandatory formal military training, and an inclusive gun culture starting from a very early age that focuses on responsibility and support instead of rugged individualism. Totally different culture from the US.
 
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fuzzybabybunny said:
Your links are pretty light on substance. They don't delve deeper into the actual changes enacted by gun control measures. They also don't make any distinctions between "firearms." The Australian links also don't account for population growth. Yes, firearm ownership is now up to pre-buyback levels. That's a lot of single shot rifles and collectables. I have a couple Aussie friends who are getting rid of their guns because it's honestly too much a pain in the ass to keep and use them.

And yes, criminals will get less guns with proper gun control measures. That's one thing that most people don't get. "A criminal, by definition of being a criminal, will always get guns no matter what" is a laughable oversimplification but a convenient mantra for those who don't bother to think deeper on the matter. Ironically, they use the same mantra to call others stupid. Look to free market effects, or more specifically, black market pricing. It's all just simple supply and demand and price curves.

The young Swiss know that their military is a joke and the reason for their required military service is also a joke. That doesn't stop them from looking at Americans and seeing our gun policies (or lack of) as crazy when taking the American populace and culture into account. The Swiss look at our gun culture and just think it's retarded.
Click to expand...

my links answered what they needed to answer. you have provided no links that i've seen. what distinctions between "firearms" are you looking for? you want me to account for populstion groth, yet the next sentence you tell me gun owner ship is now up to pre-buyback levels? this to me means it isn't really doing much. I really feel bad for your Aussie friends that are considering getting rid of their guns because it's too much of a pain in the ass to keep and use them. That is just so sad and something i hope never happens here in the states.

as for criminals always having guns... well yea, just like drug dealers always seem to have drugs. If they're not grown/created locally, they're smuggled into the country. If cost becomes an issue they already have a system in place for loaning/renting guns. You said it was due to cost. so they're already prepared. But guns can also be made locally just as drugs can be grown/made locally. If this thought process is a laughable, over simplification, i must point out that gun restrictions and bans are laughable and an over simplification. More so i think.

If the Swiss look at us and think this, they have the right and freedom to do so. Doesn't mean we're doing it poorly. Other issues can mean that. and why would their military service have any impact on them looking at Americans? We have gun policies and restrictions already. what more do you prepose that will do anything better? Please do point out what needs to change?

1. What i feel needs to change? The NFA registry, or more so the items that have to be put on it, needs to change. suppressors, SBRs, SBS,s and such things need to be removed and be freely available under existing federal laws. It needs to be opened back up to allow new full auto weapons to be registered. I'm on the fence if it even needs to be.

2. Background checks... I really don't know what they're checking other than maybe doing a quick check to see if i've committed a felony or anything else that would legally keep me from buying a firearm. my issue with them are holds and denials with no explanation. Reportedly only to be checked again a few days later and cleared as ok. I really want to know what's going on in the background there. We have background checks, other than know what and how they're checking things, what else do you want out of them?

3. If we are able to buy a firearm, we should be able to carry it with out a license. At the very least, specific to NC, i should not have to be finger printed as if i were a criminal.

4. Gun free zones should be limited to places providing well trained armed security.

5. There should not be any kind of gun registration. which is part of why i'm on the fence with the NFA's registration. I feel there should be no need for the registration if they open it up to newly manufacture machine guns. Just allowing that would make the registration needless.

These are 5 of the things that pop into my head when i think about our gun restrictions/laws. if the mentally ill getting firearms bothers you, you're not alone. but there are laws and steps in place to prevent them from directly buying firearms. What we need extra in this area is better options for care and treatment. Looking into why things may be getting worse for society's mental health.
 
HamburgerBoy said:
What about similarly-developed Western countries with firearms (Switzerland and the Czech Republic)?
Click to expand...

fuzzybabybunny pls respond

Explain why the Czech Republic doesn't have a gun violence problem when their gun control laws are roughly on par with America's (people are allowed to carry concealed and shoot in self-defense there).
 
JoeBleed said:
my links answered what they needed to answer. you have provided no links that i've seen. what distinctions between "firearms" are you looking for? you want me to account for populstion groth, yet the next sentence you tell me gun owner ship is now up to pre-buyback levels? this to me means it isn't really doing much. I really feel bad for your Aussie friends that are considering getting rid of their guns because it's too much of a pain in the ass to keep and use them. That is just so sad and something i hope never happens here in the states.

as for criminals always having guns... well yea, just like drug dealers always seem to have drugs. If they're not grown/created locally, they're smuggled into the country. If cost becomes an issue they already have a system in place for loaning/renting guns. You said it was due to cost. so they're already prepared. But guns can also be made locally just as drugs can be grown/made locally. If this thought process is a laughable, over simplification, i must point out that gun restrictions and bans are laughable and an over simplification. More so i think.

If the Swiss look at us and think this, they have the right and freedom to do so. Doesn't mean we're doing it poorly. Other issues can mean that. and why would their military service have any impact on them looking at Americans? We have gun policies and restrictions already. what more do you prepose that will do anything better? Please do point out what needs to change?

1. What i feel needs to change? The NFA registry, or more so the items that have to be put on it, needs to change. suppressors, SBRs, SBS,s and such things need to be removed and be freely available under existing federal laws. It needs to be opened back up to allow new full auto weapons to be registered. I'm on the fence if it even needs to be.

2. Background checks... I really don't know what they're checking other than maybe doing a quick check to see if i've committed a felony or anything else that would legally keep me from buying a firearm. my issue with them are holds and denials with no explanation. Reportedly only to be checked again a few days later and cleared as ok. I really want to know what's going on in the background there. We have background checks, other than know what and how they're checking things, what else do you want out of them?

3. If we are able to buy a firearm, we should be able to carry it with out a license. At the very least, specific to NC, i should not have to be finger printed as if i were a criminal.

4. Gun free zones should be limited to places providing well trained armed security.

5. There should not be any kind of gun registration. which is part of why i'm on the fence with the NFA's registration. I feel there should be no need for the registration if they open it up to newly manufacture machine guns. Just allowing that would make the registration needless.

These are 5 of the things that pop into my head when i think about our gun restrictions/laws. if the mentally ill getting firearms bothers you, you're not alone. but there are laws and steps in place to prevent them from directly buying firearms. What we need extra in this area is better options for care and treatment. Looking into why things may be getting worse for society's mental health.
Click to expand...

lol. Good luck with all of that. The majority of what you proposed is exactly the opposite of what countries without America's problems currently do. Like I said, do more research on the rest of the world, especially at the countries which don't have gun problems, because there are things you still don't get. But I suppose the rugged individualism of Americans will make following the good examples of others impossible.

Me and the rest of the world don't really care anymore. We look at the American gun violence stories that pop up almost daily and just shrug since we've got other hobbies that are more fun to us. Firearms honestly don't register in our minds as something even remotely important or linked to happiness or feelings of security.

It's all on you guys. Good luck.
 
JoeBleed said:
ok looking at their site again. https://massshootingtracker.org/about#massshooting
"We do not consider the motive of the shooter, or whether he or she shot up a school, workplace or street corner. Our mission is to record all incidents of mass gun violence."

but this includes gang violence. i hope you agree it doesn't matter what gun laws or bans you put into place, these events will not stop. I don't think they will decrease either as they will still be able to get guns. Please don't say they will not because i will feel trying to discuss this further with you will be pointless and/or give me a headache.

"We include the shooter's death because suicide matters and means matter. Ignoring the shooter's death is not logically consistent with research that tracks the death toll of firearm suicides in our society."

This doesn't seem logical. Yea, the shooters life was ended, even if by suicide, but why should it count in the stats? Nor should it be counted if the cops shot the shooter. though by their on definition, it shouldn't count because the cop would be a different person. firearm suicide shouldn't be included. if suicide was their only intention, there are other ways. It may or may not be relevant to the above quote, but i'll add here that murder suicide of a family should not be counted either. Not sure if they do count that, but they probably do. Why should it not be counted? because it was likely done in private and not having a gun would probably not have stopped it from happening.

As for all of the news stories, one thing seems clear when clicking on them. they are involving a lot of criminal based activity. one of them were on federal agents trying to arrest a fugitive at a motel. why should these things be listed and given the same weight? laws nor bans will have any noticeable effect on them. they do point out we, though we ar not alone, do have a serious "violence" problem. it's not just guns. these people would be violent no matter what tools they had with out looking into why they are violent. With out working to find and fix the root cause, it isn't going to matter what you do.
Click to expand...

Yes. Honestly, Having more freedom means there's more risk and I have a greater responsibility for my own safety. I'm OK with that.
 
fuzzybabybunny said:
lol. Good luck with all of that. The majority of what you proposed is exactly the opposite of what countries without America's problems currently do. Like I said, do more research on the rest of the world, especially at the countries which don't have gun problems, because there are things you still don't get. But I suppose the rugged individualism of Americans will make following the good examples of others impossible.

Me and the rest of the world don't really care anymore. We look at the American gun violence stories that pop up almost daily and just shrug since we've got other hobbies that are more fun to us. Firearms honestly don't register in our minds as something even remotely important or linked to happiness or feelings of security.

It's all on you guys. Good luck.
Click to expand...

I have researched it. I've seen places that have strict gun laws still have violence problems, including the use of guns where there should not be any. Again, you aren't actually trying to show anything, you're just echoing what you believe it would seem. It's ok if you don't register shooting as a hobby if you have the option and chose not to. but when you don't even have the option, how can you say it's not important or linked to happiness? You said you were from Ohio, but you make it sound as if you are living in another country now. what has been your exposure to guns while in the US? Personal and direct exposure.

I'll also ask this in hopes you actually answer and i'll assume you're anti gun, seems like a safe assumption in this case, but I'd like you to say you are anti gun or not anti gun and what you believe should be the proper handling of gun laws restrictions?

The other questions will work on the assumption you are anti gun:

When you were/are talking to your friends in other countries about guns, how can you have a good discussion with them if you are both against guns? You would be just echoing the same thing to each other in agreement without actually discussing anything.

What do you think about your Swiss friends and the guns they have? Do you feel uneasy around them? Have you gone to the range with them? Fired them?

In the discussions you had with your Swiss friends, what did they think should be different here and there in their opinion?

What do you think should change about the states' gun laws/restrictions?
 
Ichinisan said:
Yes. Honestly, Having more freedom means there's more risk and I have a greater responsibility for my own safety. I'm OK with that.
Click to expand...

Same here.

Not sure if you quoted me because you agree or thought i was saying it isn't worth the freedom for some reason. Just wanted to be clear.
 
Still in the news with a guilty plea:

lawandcrime.com

Jake Wagner Admits His Family Killed Eight Members of the Rhoden and Gilley Families in Ohio's 2016 Pike County Massacre

Five years to the day after eight members of the Rhoden and Gilley families were found murdered execution-style as they slept in rural Ohio, one of the men charged with the killings admitted he and his family committed the crimes.
lawandcrime.com lawandcrime.com

triblive.com

Man pleads guilty in fatal shootings of 8 from Ohio family

A man pleaded guilty in the murders of his child’s mother and seven other members of her family on Thursday, the fifth anniversary of when the shootings were discovered in southern Ohio. Edward “Jake” Wagner pleaded guilty to 23 counts in Pike County court in a deal with prosecutors that
triblive.com
 
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