at least 2 dead in 777 crash at sfo!

[Lithium381]

Breaking news! 2 dead 61+ injured in a flight from korea landing at sfo this morning! Details as they become available

 

[maidaa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5edrm3RjLU

 

[EagleKeeper]

Link

Asiana Airlines flight crashes while landing at San Francisco International Airport

copy/Paste

SAN FRANCISCO - An Asiana Airlines flight from Seoul, South Korea, crashed while landing at San Francisco International Airport on Saturday, critically injuring at least 10 people and forcing passengers to jump down the emergency inflatable slides to safety.

The Federal Aviation Administration said Flight 214 crashed while landing at 11:36 a.m. PDT. A video clip posted to YouTube showed smoke coming from a jet on the tarmac. Passengers could be seen jumping down the emergency slides.

Television footage showed the top of the fuselage was burned away and the entire tail was gone. One engine appeared to have broken away. Pieces of the tail were strewn about the runway. Emergency responders could be seen walking inside the burned-out wreckage.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PHOTOS: Asiana Airlines plane crash
VIDEO: Watch footage of crash
LIVE: Social media updates

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It wasn't immediately clear what happened to the plane as it was landing, but some eyewitnesses described the aircraft doing a cartwheel and other said that it appeared to sway back and forth kicking up dust. Many said the tail fell off.

Stephanie Turner saw the plane going down and the rescue slides deploy, but returned to her hotel room before seeing any passengers get off the jet, she told ABC News. Turner said when she first saw the flight she noticed right away that the angle of its approach seemed strange.

"It didn't manage to straighten out before hitting the runway," she said. "So the tail of the plane hit the runway, and it cartwheeled and spun and the tail broke off ... I mean we were sure that we had just seen a lot of people die. It was awful.

"And it looked like the plane had completely broken apart," she said. "There were flames and smoke just billowing."

Kate Belding was out jogging just before 11:30 a.m. on a path the water from the airport when she noticed the plane approaching the runway in a way that "just didn't look like it was coming in quite right."

"Then all of a sudden I saw what looked like a cloud of dirt puffing up and then there was a big bang and it kind of looked like the plane maybe bounced (as it neared the ground)," she said. "I couldn't really tell what happened, but you saw the wings going up and (in) a weird angle."

"Not like it was cartwheeling," she said, but rather as though the wings were almost swaying from side to side.

Doug Yakel, a spokesman for the airport, said he did not yet know how many passengers were aboard the flight. "We also don't have any information at this time to the status of those passengers," he said at a brief news conference.

San Francisco General Hospital spokeswoman Rachael Kagan says the adult patients range in age from 20 to their 40s. It was not immediately clear the ages of the children.

San Francisco-area broadcasters KNTV, KCBS and KTVU have reported that there were fatalities in Saturday's crash of the Asiana airlines flight from Seoul, South Korea. But The Associated Press contacted police, fire and coroner's officials and was unable to confirm any deaths.

A call to the airline seeking comment wasn't immediately returned.

The National Transportation Safety Board said it was sending a team of investigators to San Francisco to probe the crash. NTSB spokeswoman Kelly Nantel said Saturday that NTSB Chairman Deborah Hersman would head the team.

Boeing said it was preparing to provide technical assistance to the NTSB.

Numerous flights headed to San Francisco were diverted to other airports. A United Airlines flight bound for San Francisco was sent to Los Angeles airport, and passengers were told the San Francisco airport would be closed for at least three hours Saturday afternoon.

Asiana is a South Korean airline, second in size to national carrier Korean Air. It has recently tried to expand its presence in the United States, and joined the Star Alliance, which is anchored in the U.S. by United Airlines.

The 777-200 is a long-range plane from Boeing. The twin-engine aircraft is one of the world's most popular long-distance planes, often used for flights of 12 hours or more, from one continent to another. The airline's website says its 777s can carry between 246 to 300 passengers.

The flight was 10 hours and 23 minutes, according to FlightAware, a flight tracking service. The aircraft is configured to seat 295 passengers, it said.

The Boeing 777 is a smaller, wide-body jet that can travel long distances without refueling and is typically used for long flights over water.

The most notable accident involving a 777 occurred on Jan. 17, 2008 at Heathrow Airport in London. British Airways Flight 28 landed hard about 1,000 feet short of the runway and slid onto the start of the runway. The impact broke the 777-200's landing gear. There were 47 injuries, but no fatalities.

An investigation revealed ice pellets that had formed in the fuel were clogging the fuel-oil heat exchanger, blocking fuel from reaching the plane's engines. The Rolls-Royce Trent 800 series engines that were used on the plane were then redesigned.

Bill Waldock, an expert on aviation accident investigation, said he was reminded of the Heathrow accident as he watched video of Saturday's crash. "Of course, there is no indication directly that's what happened here," he said. "That's what the investigation is going to have to find out."

The Asiana 777 "was right at the landing phase and for whatever reason the landing went wrong," said Waldock, director of the Embry-Riddle University accident investigation laboratory in Prescott, Ariz. "For whatever reason, they appeared to go low on approach and then the airplane pitched up suddenly to an extreme attitude, which could have been the pilots trying to keep it out of the ground."

The last time a large U.S. airline lost a plane in a fatal crash was an American Airlines Airbus A300 taking off from John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York in 2001.

Smaller airlines have had crashes since then. The last fatal U.S. crash was a Continental Express flight operated by Colgan Air, which crashed into a house near Buffalo, N.Y. on Feb. 12, 2009. The crash killed all 49 people on board and one man in a house.

Flying remains one of the safest forms of transportation: There are about two deaths worldwide for every 100 million passengers on commercial flights, according to an Associated Press analysis of government accident data.

Just a decade ago, passengers were 10 times as likely to die when flying on an American plane. The risk of death was even greater during the start of the jet age, with 1,696 people dying — 133 out of every 100 million passengers — from 1962 to 1971. The figures exclude acts of terrorism.

But airline crashes remain in the public's memory much longer than a wreck on the side of the road. Flying isn't natural and crashes involve many fatalities, often accompanied with horrifying images.

Those in the airline industry often say that you are more likely to die driving to the airport than on your flight. There are more than 30,000 motor-vehicle deaths each year, a mortality rate eight times greater than that in planes.

There are still some corners of the world where flying is risky. Russia, the Democratic Republic of the Congo and Somalia have particularly high rates of deadly crashes. But America, Europe and Asia — with the exception of a few low-cost carriers — have remained very safe.

Asia remains one of the fastest-growing regions for aviation in the world. Even with slowing economies in Japan and China, airlines there saw 3.7 percent more passengers than a year ago, according to the International Air Transport Association.

Finding enough experienced pilots to meet a growing number of flights is becoming a problem.

A 2012 report by aircraft manufacturer Boeing said the industry would need 460,000 new commercial airline pilots in the next two decades — with 185,000 of them needed in Asia alone.

"The Asia-Pacific region continues to present the largest projected growth in pilot demand," the report said.

 

[piasabird]

I think this young woman deserves a Medal. She Managed to get every person off the plane, Free Trapped crewmembers when the slide on one side inflated in the cabin with a hand ax, put out a fire in the cabin and get all the passengers off the plane. She is a Hero!

http://news.yahoo.com/asiana-attendant-describes-dramatic-evacuation-101658097.html

 

[zsdersw]

I think this young woman deserves a Medal. She Managed to get every person off the plane, Free Trapped crewmembers when the slide on one side inflated in the cabin with a hand ax, put out a fire in the cabin and get all the passengers off the plane. She is a Hero!

http://news.yahoo.com/asiana-attendant-describes-dramatic-evacuation-101658097.html

Indeed. This commentary next to a photo of the wreckage was popular on Facebook, too:

Just a Reminder: Flight crews don't spend 6 - 8 weeks learning how to pour a Coca Cola, collect your trash or yell at you to turn off your iPhone for the fifth time. We're here to get you off the plane in 90 seconds or less when this happens. It's a great job and I love it, but remember your crew isn't there just to kiss your rear. Your crew could lose their life trying to save yours. Be courteous to your crew, this rarely happens, but when it does who do you want to rely on?

 

[monovillage]

"SFO Crash: Victim may have been hit by rescue truck after plane crash"

http://www.denverpost.com/technology/ci_23614595/sfo-crash-asiana-pilot-tried-abort-before-impact

 

[xBiffx]

San Francisco 777 Crash: Why Did So Many Passengers Evacuate With Bags?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/johngog...hy-did-so-many-passengers-evacuate-with-bags/

That's nice. I know I grabbing a human being before I grab my stupid shit if I'm in any evacuation.

 

[irishScott]

Fucking Republicans. It's Bush's cuts to airline regulations that are directly responsible for this.



























:sneaky:

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

San Francisco 777 Crash: Why Did So Many Passengers Evacuate With Bags?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/johngog...hy-did-so-many-passengers-evacuate-with-bags/

That's nice. I know I grabbing a human being before I grab my stupid shit if I'm in any evacuation.

The plane originated from Shanghai. I'm not sure how many of you frequently fly to China, but I've noticed that this is probably the passengers' very first flights to the US or in ever. They don't know concepts such as staying seated until the plane reaches the gate, or keeping your bag under the seat, etc. On United Airlines, the FAs would repeatedly coax them until they finally figured out what they needed to do.

These aren't your typical rich Chinese who are middle to upper class in Shanghai. Those would know what to do.

 

[woolfe9998]

The article I read this morning about analysis of the black box suggests that this was garden variety pilot error. Apparently this pilot had not landed this type of plane at SFO before.

 

[xBiffx]

The plane originated from Shanghai. I'm not sure how many of you frequently fly to China, but I've noticed that this is probably the passengers' very first flights to the US or in ever. They don't know concepts such as staying seated until the plane reaches the gate, or keeping your bag under the seat, etc. On United Airlines, the FAs would repeatedly coax them until they finally figured out what they needed to do.

These aren't your typical rich Chinese who are middle to upper class in Shanghai. Those would know what to do.

You are right. I am not a typical rich Chinese person who puts belonging before human life. Then again, for most people, self preservation comes naturally.

 

[xBiffx]

The article I read this morning about analysis of the black box suggests that this was garden variety pilot error. Apparently this pilot had not landed this type of plane at SFO before.

And he had less than 40 hours on this type. This was his training flight for landing at SFO.

 

[Anubis]

i keep seeing articles and peoples quotes about "seeing the water not the runway"

apperently none of these people or the news people have ever landed on a carribean island, where you approach from the water. FFS flying into the Caymans you can see people on boats on the way in you are so low

flying into Boston isnt much different, seeing water would never strike me as odd

 

[Fern]

The article I read this morning about analysis of the black box suggests that this was garden variety pilot error. Apparently this pilot had not landed this type of plane at SFO before.

And he had less than 40 hours on this type. This was his training flight for landing at SFO.

Well, in fairness I've heard that the co-pilot has about 10,000 flight hours, has been flying for the airline about 15-20 yrs and landed many 747's at SFO. (The two planes are comparable in size but I think the 747 is heavier.)

So, he seems 'qualified'. And of course, every pilot has a 'first landing' etc.

I would think it's the senior pilot's responsibility here. If the senior pilot thinks that due to good weather etc it's time to get the co-pilot the experience he needs, the senior pilot s/h/b supervising him.

I suppose there still exists the possibility of some type of other failure too, whether that be inaccurate gauges (air speed) or whatnot.

Fern

 

[Fern]

i keep seeing articles and peoples quotes about "seeing the water not the runway"

apperently none of these people or the news people have ever landed on a carribean island, where you approach from the water. FFS flying into the Caymans you can see people on boats on the way in you are so low

flying into Boston isnt much different, seeing water would never strike me as odd

Yeah, there's a lot of places you fly in over the water. Oslo Norway is another.

Fern

 

[davmat787]

The article I read this morning about analysis of the black box suggests that this was garden variety pilot error. Apparently this pilot had not landed this type of plane at SFO before.

Have you seen any of the charts that graph the airspeed and altitude compared to other 777 flights that arrived within 30 minutes of Asiana? Very basically, they came in too hot and high, and after correcting that to get on the guideslope properly, they were to slow and low.

At about 4NM the charts show Asiana to be around 500ft above the glideslope IIRC. To correct this, the PIC reduced thrust and dropped the nose. Once on the glideslope, it appears the PIC pulled up, but perhaps forgot to increase thrust again. At this point, the vertical speed was simply too great and without quickly increasing thrust, they were going to, and indeed did, land way to short.

Below is a graph comparing altitude with a United 777 that landed just prior to Asiana.

tl;dr: too hot and high, then too low and slow after correcting.

 

[davmat787]

Yeah, there's a lot of places you fly in over the water. Oslo Norway is another.

Fern

Papeete in Tahiti is another, and when I flew out of there was the only time I have ever been concerned. Two chartered DC-10's brought us in on a vacation charter, but they used only 1 to fly everyone out by taking out all of first class and other seating shenanigans.

I swear the wheels left the runway with only feet to spare.

If anyone wants to see some scary landings, check out kai tak (the old Hong Kong airport) videos on youtube.

 

[woolfe9998]

Papeete in Tahiti is another, and when I flew out of there was the only time I have ever been concerned. Two chartered DC-10's brought us in on a vacation charter, but they used only 1 to fly everyone out by taking out all of first class and other seating shenanigans.

I swear the wheels left the runway with only feet to spare.

If anyone wants to see some scary landings, check out kai tak (the old Hong Kong airport) videos on youtube.

You seem to know something about aviation. Is flying in over water something that causes rough landings? I ask, because I live here and have flown in to SFO 50 or more times. And I've had more of these rough "smack down" kinds of landings here than at other airports. I never really connected the two until this incident occurred.

 

[davmat787]

You seem to know something about aviation. Is flying in over water something that causes rough landings? I ask, because I live here and have flown in to SFO 50 or more times. And I've had more of these rough "smack down" kinds of landings here than at other airports. I never really connected the two until this incident occurred.

I would be extremely surprised if there is any correlation in regards to hard landings and runways that end with water. Never heard of anything like that before. And don't forget about the displaced threshold: the runway in SFO does not really begin at the seawall. Rather, it begins 300' after the seawall. In pictures, you can see yellow chevrons pointing to the displaced threshold.

And no pilot wants to put the wheels down right where the runway begins, more likely you will see a bunch of rubber on the runway where the tires first touch down about 300' after the threshold. So that gives you 600' from the seawall.

Something else to consider: Lets assume Asiana wanted to touch down 600' from the seawall like all the other flights. With a 3' glideslope, the pilots eyes should have been something like 65 feet above the seawall when he was directly above him. That is what some pilots are saying on another forum.

There are others who are more knowledgeable regarding aviation here, specifically SkyKing who is a real pilot.

 

[Gintaras]

And he had less than 40 hours on this type. This was his training flight for landing at SFO.

Hard to believe that. Asiana Airlines is a 5 Star airline - one of 7 5-Star airlines.

What's interesting, that Asiana is 2nd Korean airline and it has 5 Star rating, while 1st - Korean Air has 4 Star rating.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

Well, in fairness I've heard that the co-pilot has about 10,000 flight hours, has been flying for the airline about 15-20 yrs and landed many 747's at SFO. (The two planes are comparable in size but I think the 747 is heavier.)

So, he seems 'qualified'. And of course, every pilot has a 'first landing' etc.

I would think it's the senior pilot's responsibility here. If the senior pilot thinks that due to good weather etc it's time to get the co-pilot the experience he needs, the senior pilot s/h/b supervising him.

I suppose there still exists the possibility of some type of other failure too, whether that be inaccurate gauges (air speed) or whatnot.

Fern

The pilot himself had 9800 hours of flight time. He's flown 767s, 747s, and A320s supposedly. Those are all planes that Asiana has. He KNOWS the basics of flight, but even a small difference such as cockpit layout in a 777 could throw someone off, and while you spend extra time trying to find a knob or a button, you could forget something very basic such as flight laws.

What happened here was that they came in too high too fast, and so in order to descend faster, the pulled the engines back to flight idle. There were several key points such as when they passed in the flight such as 1000 feet above runway, they should've been should've been stable. Typically by 500 feet, if you can't stabilize yet you need to do a go-around. I don't think Asiana was anywhere near stable at that point and was still bleeding airspeed.

Because they came in too high, too fast, they had to pull the engines back to flight idle. While that's understandable, the last few nm of the landing, most pilots don't operate in flight idle. You want to be able to spool up fast enough in a go-around situation. This probably contributed to why the 777 was unable to perform a TO/GA fast enough once the pilot realized the issue. You still need something like 5 seconds for the engines to spool up to provide enough thrust going from flight idle.

 

[Exterous]

San Francisco 777 Crash: Why Did So Many Passengers Evacuate With Bags?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/johngog...hy-did-so-many-passengers-evacuate-with-bags/

That's nice. I know I grabbing a human being before I grab my stupid shit if I'm in any evacuation.

I have noticed an increase in the number of FAs saying that in the event of an emergency to not take your personal belongings. I wonder if there has been an uptick in the number of people trying to do this on emergency landings (Which wouldn't surprise me as I am convinced people are becoming more and more asshole-ish when flying)

i keep seeing articles and peoples quotes about "seeing the water not the runway"

apperently none of these people or the news people have ever landed on a carribean island, where you approach from the water. FFS flying into the Caymans you can see people on boats on the way in you are so low

flying into Boston isnt much different, seeing water would never strike me as odd

That struck me as very odd as well

 

[xBiffx]

Hard to believe that. Asiana Airlines is a 5 Star airline - one of 7 5-Star airlines.

What's interesting, that Asiana is 2nd Korean airline and it has 5 Star rating, while 1st - Korean Air has 4 Star rating.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/07/us/plane-crash-main

He actually had 43 hours. I was off a little because I thought the story said 33 when I read it earlier. But again, he never landed this aircraft at SFO. I guess he still never has. :hmm:

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Papeete in Tahiti is another, and when I flew out of there was the only time I have ever been concerned. Two chartered DC-10's brought us in on a vacation charter, but they used only 1 to fly everyone out by taking out all of first class and other seating shenanigans.

I swear the wheels left the runway with only feet to spare.

If anyone wants to see some scary landings, check out kai tak (the old Hong Kong airport) videos on youtube.

Kai Tak was one wicked landing. If they came in over the city you could look into the windows of the buildings on either side of the plane as you made the approach. When the plane touched down the pilot got on the brakes immediately and the reverse thrusters would be on full thrust. The 747's would shudder for what seemed like minutes before it settled down.

I survived 10 landings at Kai Tak airport between 1993 to 1998.

 

[nehalem256]

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/07/us/plane-crash-main

He actually had 43 hours. I was off a little because I thought the story said 33 when I read it earlier. But again, he never landed this aircraft at SFO. I guess he still never has. :hmm:

I guess that depends on your definition of "landed"