Question Asus RT-AC59U v1 has HUB ports and not SWITCH ports7

[nesor]

I have Asus RT-AC59U v1 router. I was surprised to discover its 4x 1 Gbps LAN ports are HUB ports and NOT switch ports.

I have confirmed this by Wireshark. By running Wireshark at one of the LAN ports, I can clearly see and capture all the traffic to and from the other wired LAN RJ-45 ports.
I mean not just broadcasts and multicasts. I mean ALL the traffic to and from the other ports.
After rising a ticket to Asus support page, I received confirmation from Asus support guy that indeed, RT-AC59U has LAN hub and not LAN switch.
Asus specification says "ports" without mentioning hub or switch. In 2020, my expectation was to receive switched LAN ports.

I wonder if the other router vendors do the same trick.
Can anyone test and share?

Also, I have never seen a router review testing this subject. I wouldn't buy the device if I knew in advance about this.

Thank you.

 

[JackMDS]

These days when Marketing took over Technology, it is real hard to be smart enough when buying consumers (or prosumers) goods of any kind.

In Networking terms, Ports is a general word, Switch is a very specific word, Hub turned from being very specific term years ago to have Neutral meaning today.

8-Port Gigabit Switch HUB LAN 10/100/1000Mbps Full-Duplex Gigabit Ethernet Desktop Network Switches

The above is a copy from a product on Amazon. A see you can see ""every"" Network term in the world is in it.

So.. if you do not like the specific Asus get something else.

If the Asus is "very" dear to you, buy a subl $20 Giga switch and connect it with short cable to the Asus.

Example - https://www.amazon.com/TRENDnet-GREENnet-Switching-Protection-TEG-S82G/dp/B00C2H0YFU/

 

[mxnerd]

First: I'm Not familiar with Wireshark. But want to know how did you configure your router?

There is no way it's just a hub. Switches already started to replace hubs since year 2000. I bet even ASUS tech support didn't even know what they were talking about.

ASUS RT-AC59U - TechInfoDepot

"S418015A_02" is silkscreened on the board in the FCC photos.

en.techinfodepot.shoutwiki.com

It shows it has a Qualcomm Atheros QCA8337 switch chip.

==

Microtik has many products also use QCA8337 switch chip

Manual:Switch Chip Features - MikroTik Wiki

wiki.mikrotik.com

It shows QCA8337 even has VLAN feature. No way it's just a hub.

 

[nesor]

Thanks for the reply, JackMDS!


I can't agree more with you about the marketing over technology, which is bad for both marketing and technology.
I have a friend who says about particular well known EU country:
"This country was great when the engineers ruled it. Now, politicians rule the country and I'm moving to Switzerland". Which he actually did .

Well, I don't care about the money I spent for this device.
I do care about the correct advertising. This is why I don't buy a product named "Switch Hub".
I can't accept cheating even for $100 device.
You know, if not else, if everyone cheats, there will be no people left to consume the cheating . This is not a sustainable system.

As a non-native English person, my understanding of the words "port", "hub", "switch" is their engineering meaning. These are exact technical terms in the networking. These are not interchangeable.

Asus has long been on top of my list for main boards and graphics cards. Home grade networking - nope. Not because of the products but because they decided to hide important information. You know, it's a decision you make - to be a cheater or not. If Asus has decided to cheat, I put them on the same mental shelf as "Switch Hub" brand.

BTW, I haven't heard about 1 Gbps Ethernet hub. As far as I know, 1 Gbps Ethernet frame does not have capabilities for resolving frame collisions, which happen when it is a hub and not a switch. Security is the other major issue.

I've found info about the Ethernet chip inside - Qualcomm QCA8337, which is a switch.1 If the info source is correct, I can't explain why Asus did this.

So, I wonder if all ~ $100 routers with 1 Gbps LAN ports contain a switch or a hub. Just from curiosity. If anyone can run a Wireshark capture and share the result, it would be nice.


Cheers

 

[mxnerd]

Difference between hub and switch.

Vendor uses all kinds of keywords/tags for its products so when you do a search, as many as its product will show up, that's it.

Saying ASUS is marketing its hub product as a switch is ridiculous.

Ethernet hub - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[VirtualLarry]

Sometimes, when the SoC or switch chip processor crashes, they can "fail open". Meaning, if the router crashes, no more NAT firewall or WAN/LAN partitioning. (I've seen that before, on SOHO gear.)

 

[nesor]

First: I'm Not familiar with Wireshark. But want to how did you configure your router?

There is no way it's just a hub. Switches already started to replace hubs since year 2000. I bet even ASUS tech support didn't even know what they were talking about.

ASUS RT-AC59U - TechInfoDepot

"S418015A_02" is silkscreened on the board in the FCC photos.

en.techinfodepot.shoutwiki.com

It shows it has a Qualcomm Atheros QCA8337 switch chip.

==

Microtik has many products also use QCA8337 switch chip

Manual:Switch Chip Features - MikroTik Wiki

wiki.mikrotik.com

It shows QCA8337 even has VLAN feature. No way it's just a hub.

mxnerd,

Yes, I've found the same info about the QCA8337 switch chip. Trust me, I have configured the router properly. Actually, there is nothing to configure about the hub/switch part. You can configure the router part (WAN and LAN IP settings), which obviously are working, because I am using the Internet as I write, so - it routes the IP packets .

The hub/switch part is a simple unmanaged piece of L2 Ethernet forwarding logic. There is no vLAN or any other advanced switch settings. The QCA8337 itself supports vLAN but RT-AC59U uses it as a simple switching (hubbing in my case) matrix.

You may be right about the support guy (not knowing what he is talking about) but I have it black on white, a quote:
"After checking with the management and the R&D teams i can confirm that indeed the router does not have a switch, only a hub"
I can go to the court with this - it is in my mail box.

I also wrote to this guy that maybe someone messed up with the firmware. He replied that if I think so I can downgrade the firmware version. Well, in some companies, some people get fired for such answers but OK, I tried this. The result is the same - hub behaviour and not switch behaviour. Every PC can see all other PCs traffic. Impossible to believe in year 2020 but it is a fact.

Wireshark is a great tool. Just try it.

So, could anyone just run Wireshark and share the result - router brand/model and witch or hub behaviour?
This was my initial request.

 

[mxnerd]

I've used Wireshark a few times before, but not many times in my whole life.

Have to find sometime to do my own study.

==

QCA8337 chip is not expensive at all. Well under $5 USD

QCA8337-AL3C Price & Stock | DigiPart

Reputational vendors really have no reason to do this kind of cheap tricks and get sued,
and the hub performance will be really, really bad.

 

[nesor]

Sometimes, when the SoC or switch chip processor crashes, they can "fail open". Meaning, if the router crashes, no more NAT firewall or WAN/LAN partitioning. (I've seen that before, on SOHO gear.)

VirtualLarry,

Thanks for the hint.
All WAN and LAN IP settings are OK and the device is working. It's routing. Just the L2 part is hubbing instead of switching . If it is fail open all NAT, WAN, LAN functionality shouldn't be working I think.

 

[nesor]

Difference between hub and switch.

Vendor uses all kinds of keywords/tags for its products so when you do a search, as many as its product will show up, that's it.

Saying ASUS is marketing its hub product as a switch is ridiculous.

Ethernet hub - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

One more note. This is not a discussion hub vs switch vs router. I appreciate the movie link. I've been dealing with these (and a lot more advanced) topics since the time when the knowledge was in the books and You Tube was not even an idea . The trick is that the Asus spec says just ports. It does not say switch ports or hub ports. So, Asus is not advertising hubs as switches. We, naturally, expect these ports to be switch ports in 2020 but the reality is that they are hub ports - even coming from a switch chip. So, it may look that Asus is on the safe side. On the other hand, if they write in the spec 4x 1 Gbps hub ports, who will buy it? What's the legal term about this situation? Hiding an important piece of information, which, if disclosed, could lead to a different purchasing decision.

So, the question is: Who else does the same trick?
Any Wireshark results, please?
Thanks.

 

[mxnerd]

Let's say you disconnect from internet completely.

What you were saying was if your machine A was plugged in on port 1, you were able to capture ALL data traffic between machine B on port 2 and machine C on port 3? Not just broadcast?

 

[nesor]

Let's say you disconnect from internet completely.

What you were saying was if your machine A was plugged in on port 1, you were able to capture ALL data traffic between machine B on port 2 and machine C on port 3? Not just broadcast?

Yes, correct.
Also, each machine B and machine C can do the same for the other ports respectively.

If you have Internet, you can clearly see the traffic from external public IPs to machines B and C and the traffic from machines B and C to external public IPs.
The definition of a hub.

Wireshark.
Check the attached file. I am at *.41.
*.51 is the other PC.
*.33 is the gateway, i. e. the router LAN port.
The network address/mask is 192.168.32/27.
DHCP pool deals from *.36 to *. 62.
*.33 is reserved for the gateway.
*.34 and *.35 are reserved for other static address devices.
*.63 is the broadcast.
192.168.1.64 is the next /27 network.

You can see that I (*.41) can see and capture the traffic from 213.163.93.12 (external IP) to 192.168.1.51 (machine B let's say).
Same goes for ingress/egress traffic for other machines and vice versa.

 

[mxnerd]

Tried one VM with its own USB ethernet adapter and one Android device, both stream video from Youtube, Wireshark was unable to see the download packets.

So you & ASUS could be right, the Asus RT-AC59U was operating as a hub even it has a switch chip. (tear down the router to find out?)

QCA8337 has been on the market since 2011/2012

https://e2echina.ti.com/cfs-file/__key/telligent-evolution-components-attachments/00-25-01-00-00-20-73-71/QCA8337N_5F00_Data_5F00_Sheet_5F00_MKG_2D00_17793_5F00_v1.0.pdf

Possibly engineer's error.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Could this have something to do with the "Trend Micro Internet Security" feature, that in order to "scan" traffic, all of it is basically laid bare at the switch chip, so that the CPU on the router can analyse even LAN traffic? Maybe this is intentional, and "functioning as a hub" is also a negative side-effect of this feature? That would be interesting to find out.

 

[nesor]

Tried one VM with its own USB ethernet adapter and one Android device, both stream video from Youtube, Wireshark was unable to see the download packets.

So you & ASUS could be right, the Asus RT-AC59U was operating as a hub even it has a switch chip. (tear down the router to find out?)

QCA8337 has been on the market since 2011/2012

https://e2echina.ti.com/cfs-file/__key/telligent-evolution-components-attachments/00-25-01-00-00-20-73-71/QCA8337N_5F00_Data_5F00_Sheet_5F00_MKG_2D00_17793_5F00_v1.0.pdf

Possibly engineer's error.

Thank you mxnerd!

 

[nesor]

Could this have something to do with the "Trend Micro Internet Security" feature, that in order to "scan" traffic, all of it is basically laid bare at the switch chip, so that the CPU on the router can analyse even LAN traffic? Maybe this is intentional, and "functioning as a hub" is also a negative side-effect of this feature? That would be interesting to find out.

There is no Trend Micro anywhere.
As mxnerd said, it is probably engineers' fault.
Tearing down the router is the next step as soon as the other users give me an hour for Internet downtime.

 

[JackMDS]

Here are some other story on the topic.

why is switch acting like hub

I have a unicast IP flow (no L2 or L3 multicast or broadcast) running between a source device connected to an "access" port in vlan 21 and a destination device connected to an "access" port in vlan 1. Routing between the vlans happens on an external device. I also have a pc connected to another...

community.cisco.com