Asus A8N-VM CSM Raid 1 - OS install needs Driver?

[imported_computerfarmer]

I am puting together a new system using Asus A8N-VM CSM motherboard. I am trying to setup using raid 1(2x250gigb WesternDigital). My problem is that during OS(XP) install, the OS does not see any drives .
Things I have done:
Turn on Nvdia raid in the BOIS
Entered Raid setup and setup the 2 drives as Raid 1
I have searched the ASUS website including FAQ

The Manual does not have instructions on how to install an OS in any raid format. This is not like ASUS.
If a driver is needed during install, how do I find out?

Once I find out how to do this, I then want to know how to copy a drive-image to RAID 1.

Thanks in advance for any input.

 

[imported_computerfarmer]

I am still lost, well not as lost as before. By chance I left the motherboard CD in the drive and turned on the system and found out it is self booting. It had instructions on making a driver disket, so I made a disket.
next I tried to install XP, pressed F6 during the start and then pressed "S" stuck in the driver disket and pressed Enter. A choice of 2 drivers appeared, I chose the first one and continued along. XP still could not see any drives. I repeated the proccess and chose the second driver, again XP could not see the drive.
So I thought I will try again and load both the drivers, this time XP saw the array(drives) and can now star to install the OS.

This leaves me with the second issue, how do I take an existing system from a single drive and put it on this system in RAID 1?

Any input is welcome

 

[imported_kenyee]

That's because nForce RAID is not true hardware raid, but "fakeraid" (google if you're curious).
You have to load a driver into Windows before it sees the drives as RAID 1...a real hardware raid doesn't need the driver (the driver is only needed to do hotfail, config, etc. from the OS).
Yes, you can set up a single drive as RAID1 (just set it up as degraded and missing a drive). You can then add another drive to the array and let it sync up. I've done this in Linux, but not in Windows but the concept is the same...

 

[imported_computerfarmer]

Thanks Kenyee

I formated the array, 10 hours(whats up with that), install was started, copying files then the auto reboot, it boots to the windows disk again. I stopped and took out the Windows disk and rebooted again. Now it asks to insert boot media. I go into the bios and set disket as first boot, Nvidia Raid as 2nd , CD ROM as 3rd. Save and exit, reboot. This time I go into the Raid Bios and find out the array is set as not available, but the selection to change this is greyed out and unavailable. Why on Gods green earth would this choice not be available?

I have not e-mailed ASUS on this issue, although I has emailed them many times in the past and have never recieved a reply. This is going back to K6/2 P5A days. This is my 5th ASUS board.

My Question is, How to get this to work?

 

[imported_computerfarmer]

Now what? I desided to just set up without RAID of any kind and run into another issue. Both drives are showing up as 131gig instead of the 250gig they are. Both have 1 partition each. Where has the extra gigs gone. Both of the hard drive have the same issue. Perhaps this is a leftover thing from me trying to get RAID 1 to work.

How do I undo this and restore my hard drives to there rightful settings?

 

[imported_computerfarmer]

There seem to be limitations with this motherboard that I was not aware of. To get past the drive limitation I turned Raid off and when installing XP I loaded the drivers to see if there would be a change. There was a change, now the system sees the full size of the drive. It appears that this is a OS or a chipset limitation that needs a driver to function past this limitation. I tried partioning the drive at 130gig to see if that would allow the use of the entire drive before using the drivers during setup, this did not work. Using the drivers appears to be the only way to see drives above 131gigb.

My next attempt will be to finish the OS install and see if Raid can be set up another way.

This system will be used for accounting and I would like to use RAID 1. Along with this I would like to transfer the system I have onto this new one.
I need help.
How can I install a drive image if the Nvdia driver needs to be installed in order to see the entire drive?

 

[imported_computerfarmer]

I have now tried many things to get RAID 1 to work. The main thing that is stopping it is the choice in the RAID BIOS "B" to make it bootable is greyed out.

Can anyone help me understand this?

 

[Madwand1]

First suggestion is to search in Google / post in NVidia forums / etc. for a working solution.

Next suggestion is as follows; I'm not sure if it'll work and of course there's a good chance something will go wrong:

Configure a new drive for standard SATA in BIOS
Complete the drive copy and enlarge the partition to fill the drive.
Remove original drive
Boot with new drive; install RAID drivers in OS
Shut down, add the second SATA drive intended for RAID1
Enable RAID in BIOS for drives
Cross fingers and do one of:
a) Boot OS and configure RAID1 using NVidia software (select preserve existing data)
b) Configure RAID1 using BIOS and then boot OS (select preserve existing data)

 

[imported_computerfarmer]

Thank you Madwand1

I have been unable to "configure RAID1 using NVidia software" because I do not know how to access this software, as I can not find it on my system.
I have installed the motherboard drivers. I went to Nvdia site and downloaded the software they recommended, installed it and still I can not find it. Copying the drive has been done 4 times now.
In the RAID BIOS when I setup any array, the letter "B" for make bootable is greyed out, and the letters in front of the drive read "N/A"(not available) This means that even if I get the drive image transfered, I will not be able to boot from it.

Without the drivers installed in the imaged drive the OS will not see the full size of the drive as it appears to have a 131gigb limit until the driver is installed.

How do I make RAID bootable?

 

[Madwand1]

Originally posted by: computerfarmer
I have been unable to "configure RAID1 using NVidia software" because I do not know how to access this software, as I can not find it on my system.

It's called "MediaShield". You can find its user guide here:

http://www.nvidia.com/object/feature_raid.html

I believe that it's auto-installed when you install the drivers under Windows when RAID is enabled in BIOS (but I think they don't need to be configured as RAID drives at this point -- that would be a kind of chicken-egg).

You already figured out how to install under RAID -- by configuring RAID in BIOS, and then installing BOTH drivers off the floppy via F6 during OS install.

However, I think that this isn't the approach that you want when you're not doing a full install but rather upgrading an old drive and installing as an upgrade on that -- which is what I think you're trying here. In this case, as per my previous note, the approach would be to get the original image copied over to the new drive, get that OS image fully repaired, patched and running, and then convert it to RAID.

 

[imported_computerfarmer]

Thanks again Madwand1.

Thanks for the link. I was there once already but went back to it to read every line. It has a lot of detail but does not explain how to access this program. MediaShield from what I understand is installed with the drivers. The manual on the motherboard disk has examples of how to use it but fails to let in kown on how to access it. I tried updating the drivers to see if I missed it the first time, but I see no change.

I do not understand why I can not sent the RAID to boot in the bios, as this takes place before drivers load. However it will default to N/A. I will be looking to see if this is a firmware issue with the drives or do the drivers need to tag the drives with an ID.


I have been able to get the image of the drive onto a single new drive and up and running. I am able to see the second drive in Administator Tools under Disk Management. I do not know if I am to format this drive or not at this point, so I will leave it alone for now.

How do I access MediaShield?

 

[imported_computerfarmer]

I have submitted this issue to ASUS. If I get a responce I will post it here. But I will not hold my breath Because if ASUS does respond it will be the first time they have responded to me.

 

[imported_kenyee]

I'm not sure why you can't set the RAID bootable in the BIOS either. You don't say which version of the Asus CSM BIOS you have...there was a bad 0506 BIOS a while back that made RAID non-bootable (hosed a lot of people who were using it as a mediaPC).

The only other thing I can think of is the BIOS is smart enough to know that your drives don't have the "nvidia raid fingerprint" (all RAID solutions write some magic marker that says it's for that type of RAID). That means you have to format it in the RAID BIOS but it sounds like you did that already...

 

[imported_computerfarmer]

Thank You kenyee

I started with Bios #? and flashed with 0702 and when there was no change I flashed to 1001.
I do not know how to format in the raid bios. I have tried rebuild array. I have tried delete array, start from the begining. I is as if the RAID BIOS already saw another array on or off the same drives.

I have cleared the CMOS and this has not helped.

If there is a Marker as kenyee said as a possability Then I need to find a way to low level format the drives and start from square 1.

I have read on the ASUS Forum others with the same problem and there are no resolves.

 

[grooge]

First, you go on nvidia web site, and download the latest drivers suite. Then, at the right, you'll have a nice PDF file that will explain you how to make a floppy to install XP on the array.

Now, if XP is the old one, without sp2, then you're out of luck with drive bigger than 137 gigs. You should then get a cd with SP2. The array will be seen as 1 hdd, not 2.

Now, create the array. RAID1 should show up as 1 drive with 250 gigs. once the array is created, then you install XP, pressing F6 and load BOTH drivers available. then proceed with install.

If you don't have SP2, forget about using the whole disk. You can always create a smaller partition (80 gigs, ie) to install XP on, and then, partition and format the remaining one so that all of them are smaller than 125 gigs.

 

[imported_computerfarmer]

Thanks grooge

I have gone to Nvdia site, downloaded the newest drivers, I have downloaded the PDF file and read the entire thing.

I can set it up as RAID 1, but not as a bootable drive. I have tried and installed xp, but when it goes for its first restat at installation, the system says"insert boot media" and thast's where it stops.

My problem is I can not ID this as a boot array because the RAID BIOS has the "B" for make bootable greyed out and unavailable. If I could change this to bootable I think things would work.

After installing the new drivers that include MediaShield and they do, as I unpacked the install file to see if anything was missing and all looked good. Yet after the install I checked for the MediaShield files on the system and none were installed, I checked file by file. During the install only 3 items were on the list to be installed and all 3 had check marks. The PDF file from Nvdia shows 5 items to be installed.

Making the array bootable is my problem.

 

[imported_computerfarmer]

UPDATE

During install of RAID 0 or RAID 1, at the first auto restart, the message Insert Boot Media comes up and that is where it stops. The Nvdia Raid is ID'd as the boot item in the Main Bios and raid is emabled with the drives being emabled as well. If the windows disk is left in the DVD unit, it will boot to it without asking me, on the auto restart during setup. I am loading the 2 drivers required during install using F6 then S and S. Windows sees the Array but upon auto restart is when it all goes Ka-Foo-Eee.

The Nvdia manual tells me to ID the array as bootable, yet "B" for make bootable is greyed out and unavailable.

I used Western Digital Tools to examine the drives. I used write 1's and 0's to eliminate all info on each drive. Then had another look at them using the same tool. I examined each one sepperately, only 1 in the system at a time, I used another system for obvious reasons. To my supprise each drive is ID'd twice. I appears asthough a Marker is placed on the drives that does not come off with writing 1's and 0's to the drive with Western Digital tools. This is suppose to get the drive back to square 1.

This is my third system with RAID. My first Asus A7V-133, my second ASUS A7N8X Deluxe. I had no issues with RAID on the first two motherboards.

I have asked for technical help from ASUS , Nvdia. I hope they will reply and if they do I will post their reply(s).

Any input is welcome

 

[imported_kenyee]

Man, this sounds like it's more pain than it's worth...I'm glad I'm using Linux software RAID instead ;-)
Ever think about finding the least expensive hardware RAID card you can find ($200-300 for decent performance) and using that?

Only other thing I can think of is to try slipstreaming the driver onto an XP SP2 CD (add it to the CD itself as a driver). I suspect that isn't your problem though.

If you have any other drives you can drop in, you can test the ID theory...just put one on and install it as a degraded RAID1. I know people have gotten RAID to work w/ the CSM board on avsforum.

 

[imported_computerfarmer]

Thanks kenyee. Your view makes sense, as you can see bellow.

UPDATE

I called Western Digital Support today, to see if they would have some insite. After expaining my situation, I was moved up to the next level of support. Here it was explained to me that regular desktop hard drives are not ment for raid setups. This is due to fault tolerance. Apparently Error Recovery is slow enough on on regular hard drives and this can cause Raid Chipsets to see this as an error. This will be seen as raid failure, not necessarily drive failure.

Western Digital makes Raid Drives. These drives are built to overcome this issue.

Western Digital Support did not solve my problem, although they did make a recommendation. I should return the drives I bought and purchase Raid Drives. an example: wd4000yd $250.00 each Canadian compared to wd2500js $105.00 each

Advice is good, but there should be some kind of a notice from all the manufacturers involved as to compatibility.
example: there are charts for memory compatibility.

It was good of Western Digital to take the time and explain things to me. However after looking through their site, all I could come up with is that there are higher quality drives with longer warrenties. But never was there a mention of any of them, not recomended for RAID use.

I have not seen a posting from ASUS or NVDIA regarding these issues.

So if I spend $290.00 more than I have, will this solve my problem?

I will wait for ASUS and NVDIA to reply before deciding what to do.

What hard drives are people using?

 

[Madwand1]

I've been playing with this just now, and... is it too late for caveats? I have to say that this stuff is tricky and error-prone, and you're very likely to end up losing everything while trying various options. So the caveat is: Don't do anything to your original drive -- keep it as a backup.

One of the problems here is the number of inter-related but separate parts: (1) MB + BIOS. (2) NVidia RAID BIOS. (3) Windows OS. (4) Drive imaging software. Each of these has an interpretation and understanding of drives, and each is somewhat different from the others.

Even (1) the ASUS MB BIOS has parts that don't seem to understand each other. So for example if you disable or RAID a set of drives, they may still show up individually (and incorrectly) in the BOOT menu until you do a reboot. So be sure to do this -- when you change the drive configuration, reboot, and then go into BIOS again, and set the drive priority and boot selection, and then re-boot again...

Moreover, let's confirm our assumptions:

You have a working Asus A8N-VM CSM system
Running a single drive

You have two new SATA HD's you want to use to in-place replace above C: with RAID 1

Questions:

What are you old and new OS's
What is your old drive size?
How is it partitioned?
What are you using to image your drive?

----------------------------

Originally posted by: computerfarmer
So if I spend $290.00 more than I have, will this solve my problem?

No, not at all. It might solve a problem that you haven't had yet down the road, but it won't solve the above software issues. It's a Windows + BIOS + NVidia issue.

I don't fully understand WD's claim here. If it's valid, then you might consider for example Maxtor's "enterprise ATA" Maxline III instead -- they're cheaper than the WD. But you should check that that concern is valid and addressed by the Maxtor drives.

You might want to talk with Maxtor's (or Seagate's) salemen/support in addition about the same issue.

 

[aka1nas]

Western Digital is saying that because they want you to buy the "RAID Optimized" version of the drive that costs more. Ignore them.

As far as the RAID issue:

1) If you create a RAID 1 and the BIOS still shows seperate drives, ignore it.

2) You may have a boot option in your BIOS that allows booting off the RAID. It may need to be set before you can select the option in the nvidia RAID setup.

3) I am not clear as to when the size is being reported incorrectly. Is it in the nvRAID BIOS setup or in Windows? If it's the former, the board needs a BIOS update or has a compatability issue. If the latter, then you need a copy of XP with SP1 or higher. If you have another PC with a cd burner you can get some freely available tools online and an .exe version of SP2 and slipstream it into your XP cd that has been copied into a folder and reburn a disc that is already at SP2 level.

If all this seems like too much work, then forget using NvRAID and install XP onto one of the drives and make a software RAID 1 with the second disk later once you have the machine updated and working fine. It honestly won't be noticeably slower or faster than using the NvRAID.

 

[Madwand1]

I'm reluctant to attempt another step-by-step before checking all the assumptions and alternatives. Here're some "clean" alternatives:

(1) Keep the old drive and OS as-is. Install and configure the new drives in RAID 1, install a new OS on it, and (*) manually migrate whatever you need off the old drive using the new OS.

(2) Use Windows "files and settings" transfer utility to achieve (*)

This would be easier if you have another machine or at least another big drive to use as a repository for the intermediates.

--------------

You can install XP under NV RAID 1 in this MB.
You can break and rebuild NV RAID 1 arrays in this MB.
The Media Shield utility does get auto-installed sometimes (RAID has to be enabled). But the important thing is to get the RAID drivers installed, not the Media Shield utility in Windows. I think you can do all the basic things in the NV BIOS.

Note also that the "Bootable" flag in the NV BIOS is bunk -- it's not necessary for booting -- the ASUS BIOS boot menu applies instead. Here's one place where the ASUS BIOS per se and NV BIOS are inconsistent.

Here's one way to install XP under RAID 1:

Re-boot, trap DEL for Asus BIOS
Enable SATA controller, RAID, and enable selected drives for RAID.

Re-boot, trap F10 for NV BIOS
Create RAID 1 array using selected drives

Re-boot, trap Asus BIOS
In BOOT config:
set drive priority -- NV Array is first
set boot order -- NV Array and CD (shouldn't matter which order; array first might be a bit cleaner) - it's convenient to disable floppy boot here

Insert RAID driver floppy
Re-boot, install using Windows CD
Press F6
Select BOTH drivers, one after the other when prompted
Continue through Windows installation

After basic Windows is install, install drivers using Asus CD
(Optionally) update using latest NVidia drivers
RAID device should be auto-detected -- the drivers are in the sataraid folder of both the Asus and NVidia packages.
Media Shield should appear on desktop automatically when you install the drivers with RAID enabled.

-----------------------------------

If you break or re-construct RAID 1 arrays, be sure to use the Rebuild option in BIOS -- this will ensure that you have a consistent image. You're prompted to select a drive for Rebuilding; it's unclear, but you should select the drive to be rebuilt, not the source drive.

Note that RAID1 is like a hybrid RAID 0 -- when reading, the read can be striped off both drives. So if you skip the re-build phase with potentially inconsistent drives, you can get bad results.

-----------------------------------

You can image to/from NV RAID 1 arrays -- I've had some success with Norton Partition Magic 8. Note that while Windows version looks very nice; the boot versions (floppy or CD) tend to work more reliably. This is NOT an endorsement of Norton Partition Magic -- I believe that it's not currently well supported / maintained. Arconis might be better -- they explicitly claim to support RAID arrays, and have current updates. There's also a mention of Ghost support in the NV RAID manual.

-----------------------------------

Hope this helps, instead of destroying all your data -- note the previous caveats; lot of complications here and possibilities for damage -- avoid any changes to the original data if at all possible.

Note also that you'll have to manage the drive letter problem when copying / imaging drives. It's probably best to copy and disconnect, so that the drive letters don't change, or to avoid imaging and use the simpler alternatives I started with.

 

[imported_computerfarmer]

Thank You Madwand1,

I am keeping the original drive as backup, Thanks for the advice.

I have a working Asus A8N-VM CSM system.
Running a single drive

I have two new SATA HD's you want to use to in-place replace above C: with RAID 1
OS is XP-SP2 on new and not as new system(old)
Old system has 80gig hard drive, 1 Partitioned, full drive
I am using DriveImage7.

I was thinking of using my spare 30gig as the Boot drive => setup the Mirrored array=> use the bootdrive to assist in imaging the array, but first I need to understand how to partition the new array to avoid a boot issue and then there are the drivers.


This is found on page 144 of MediaShield User?s Guide ? Version 3.1
Array Morphing Questions
? Is it possible to Morph a single bootable drive to a two-disk stripe array?
That is, if I have a single drive in the system that is not RAID enabled, then decide to add a second drive to the system, will I then be able to Morph the single bootable drive to a two-disk stripe array?
If "RAID Enable" in the BIOS RAID Config screen is not enabled when the OS is
installed, it is not possible to convert the SATA boot drive into a multi-disk bootable
RAID array.

 

[imported_computerfarmer]

ASUS's Reply To This Issue
From:ASUS TSD
To:computerfarmer@nexicom.net
Date:2006-05-23 10:12:00

There still bootable even though the option is grayed out.



David

My Answer!
If it did work I would not have this issue.

Further to this, I can setup a mirror arrary.
Bios settings then Raid Bios then boot to XP, load both drivers, it sees the Array, I format, OS installs, the problem is when it does its first restart, it asks for me to insert boot media, it does not say the Array does not exist, it is just not booting. If I leave the XP CD in the drive, then it boots to it again and tries to initait an install.

 

[Madwand1]

Originally posted by: computerfarmer
Further to this, I can setup a mirror arrary.
Bios settings then Raid Bios then boot to XP, load both drivers, it sees the Array, I format, OS installs, the problem is when it does its first restart, it asks for me to insert boot media, it does not say the Array does not exist, it is just not booting. If I leave the XP CD in the drive, then it boots to it again and tries to initait an install.

I assume you're talking about a fresh installation here.

I've done this without any problems. Did you have any other drives attached at the time? If so, try this with just the RAID array drives attached. Don't trust the BIOS enable / disable / remove from boot list feature to hide these drives entirely -- physically disconnect them instead.

Did you ensure that the MIRROR is the boot drive after having created the array before installation? Check my previous note on this with your steps.

The NVidia RAID notes also warn about potential problems if the "clear data" option is not selected. For a fresh install, this option should be good.

Asus is also confirming what I've said earlier -- the "bootable" flag in the NV RAID BIOS is meaningless (as far as I know) -- you can still boot off an array where that flag says "N/A".