Associated Press destroys the War on Drugs. Absolutely damning article.

[shira]

Legalize the possession and use of MJ, cocaine, opium, and heroin for adults.

Set up state/federal regulatory bodies and control sale just like for alcohol and tobacco.

Tax the sh!t out of it (but not so much that it encourages a black market).

Empty prisons of all drug offenders except those who've committed violent acts.

Pass laws making it illegal to fire someone from a job for using these drugs during non-work hours, unless it interferes with their duties.

Spend a significant fraction of the tax-proceeds and the money saved from hugely reduced interdiction, criminal-justice, and penal costs to educate the public against drug use and to pay for programs to get people un-hooked.

The above steps make so much sense, and would represent such a huge benefit, that they'll never happen.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Legalize the possession and use of MJ, cocaine, opium, and heroin for adults.

Set up state/federal regulatory bodies and control sale just like for alcohol and tobacco.

Tax the sh!t out of it (but not so much that it encourages a black market).

Empty prisons of all drug offenders except those who've committed violent acts.

Pass laws making it illegal to fire someone from a job for using these drugs during non-work hours, unless it interferes with their duties.

Spend a significant fraction of the tax-proceeds and the money saved from hugely reduced interdiction, criminal-justice, and penal costs to educate the public against drug use and to pay for programs to get people un-hooked.

The above steps make so much sense, and would represent such a huge benefit, that they'll never happen.

There is one flaw in your plan :
When you tax it , there will be a black market. When people get addicted, they want more. When not addicted people can get a discount on some article they will try to get that discount. The same logic you can apply to addictive drugs when sold legally to addicts. The need will increase and increase. You will never be able to control it. When you legalize everything , sooner or later a new drug will arrive. When seeing drug use as a market, Even if moral existed in heavy drug(drugs for example like cocaine, heroine, crystal meth, speed) use, the last piece existing of moral will be gone.

Even if you give it away for free. Violence will happen...

 

[GuitarDaddy]

There is one flaw in your plan :
When you tax it , there will be a black market. When people get addicted, they want more. When not addicted people can get a discount on some article they will try to get that discount. The same logic you can apply to addictive drugs when sold legally to addicts. The need will increase and increase. You will never be able to control it. When you legalize everything , sooner or later a new drug will arrive. When seeing drug use as a market, Even if moral existed in heavy drug(drugs for example like cocaine, heroine, crystal meth, speed) use, the last piece existing of moral will be gone.

Even if you give it away for free. Violence will happen...

I have to disagree with some of that. Cigs are taxed to death and you don't see much of a black market. And your idea that addicts are constantly increasing their intake is also proven false by tobacco which is one of the most addicting substances on the planet yet most smokers maintain a steady intake over years.

 

[Mursilis]

In the past there is evidence people used the heavier forms of drugs(Arabs used opium because they where not allowed to drink from their religion)
In the past, other people in the US where not allowed to drink and used cocaine instead. Clearly when looking at history, people need some sort of a medium to let go, to hide behind when they want to blow of some steam.
History has shown that the best way to do so is alcohol and cannabis. Both are the least addictive(Forgetting for a moment about the always present exceptions) and very difficult to hide when using all day. When some people needs to relax and can smoke a joint instead of drinking alcohol, i think for some people it would be an improvement over alcohol.

That really doesn't answer my question about usage rates.

 

[xj0hnx]

I have to disagree with some of that. Cigs are taxed to death and you don't see much of a black market. And your idea that addicts are constantly increasing their intake is also proven false by tobacco which is one of the most addicting substances on the planet yet most smokers maintain a steady intake over years.

Not only that but is has been medically proven that sustained levels of opiates achieve the same results over long periods of time. The problem arrives when people do more than they need and build up a tolerance at which point they need more to achieve the same results. this is also caused by fluctuation in purity of supply. The onus is on the user to maintain a suitable level, and responsibility.

 

[BoberFett]

According to this documentary it seems the black people who where doing heavy labor where getting cocaine to work harder. Afcourse they got addicted and started to behaved horny and aggressive. There is even a part of history about the police needed to use bigger caliber bullets because some men totally high on cocaine would not go down when shot with a small caliber.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lrd5xtyfjFw&feature=related

But i truly hope, that your war on drugs ends, that cannabis gets decriminalized / legalized. I have seen a documentary about cannabis smokers who where send to jail just for smoking. I think that (a wild guess) 70 percent of the jailers can go free right away with smoking cannabis in private no longer being a criminal act. And the police have more time to go after the heavy cases, the real criminals. And have time to spare to help addicts of the heavy forms of drugs to rehabilitate and just keep it too an occasional joint and a good glas of alcohol.

The big question is , what is going on with Mexico that so many people go work in the drugs scene ? How is the poverty in Mexico ?
How are the jobs ? How many people have a job ? What is the government like ?

It's funny how anti-drug you are, when clearly you are incredibly ignorant and believe the propaganda.

LOL, blacks and dope raping the white wimmenz!!!!!!!! OH NOEZ!!!!!!!!

 

[William Gaatjes]

I have to disagree with some of that. Cigs are taxed to death and you don't see much of a black market. And your idea that addicts are constantly increasing their intake is also proven false by tobacco which is one of the most addicting substances on the planet yet most smokers maintain a steady intake over years.

Strange that you mention that about cigarettes. I see a very good black market around here for brand cigarettes. But i (It is proven as well) see a lot of diseases associated with smoking. And over the whole world more and more voices arises smoking should be forbidden. And the health care costs are quite large (Cancer, heart diseases). And the benefits none existent( With the exception of schizophrenic people, they seem to have a benefit from nicotine).
And they are also the group that will increase to smoke more. And i noticed that the smokers around me actually do smoke more over time while not having a psychiatric history. I agree that there is a limit but common, a pack of 25 cigarettes a day ?

 

[BoberFett]

I support some sort of drug legalization/decriminalization, but I'm not sure I'm buying all that. I'd like to see some evidence. Alcohol's legal and we still have plenty of drunks.

Yeah, so what? How did prohibition of alcohol work out? Everyone still drank who wanted to, and there was a massive increase in crime surrounding the bootlegging.

 

[nonlnear]

Strange that you mention that about cigarettes. I see a very good black market around here for brand cigarettes. But i (It is proven as well) see a lot of diseases associated with smoking. And over the whole world more and more voices arises smoking should be forbidden. And the health care costs are quite large (Cancer, heart diseases). And the benefits none existent( With the exception of schizophrenic people, they seem to have a benefit from nicotine).
And they are also the group that will increase to smoke more. And i noticed that the smokers around me actually do smoke more over time while not having a psychiatric history. I agree that there is a limit but common, a pack of 25 cigarettes a day ?

Yet strangely in the face of cheap and available alternatives to using smoke as a delivery system, regulators still seem hell-bent on prohibiting tobacco instead of opening up the market to better solutions. The health risks associated with smoking have virtually nothing to do with nicotine, and yet smokeless delivery systems are being targeted for prohibition more aggressively than the much more dangerous cigarettes. Why is that? Is it so hard to admit that the kind of government folks who tend to favor prohibition as the default solution to social "problems" are generally insane?

 

[William Gaatjes]

It's funny how anti-drug you are, when clearly you are incredibly ignorant and believe the propaganda.

Are you people dyslexic or something ?
I am not anti drugs in the sense i have no problem with cannabis. But i do not think it is wise to legalize the more addictive/heavy forms of drugs.
When do you people actually start to read ?

LOL, blacks and dope raping the white wimmenz!!!!!!!! OH NOEZ!!!!!!!!

Funny is it not ? Talking about cultural delusions.
And then to think that those same white wimmenz where high all the time too. Yet the black people are to blame, not the people who force cocaine to the people for a profit without moral. Talking about double standards...

 

[William Gaatjes]

Yet strangely in the face of cheap and available alternatives to using smoke as a delivery system, regulators still seem hell-bent on prohibiting tobacco instead of opening up the market to better solutions. The health risks associated with smoking have virtually nothing to do with nicotine, and yet smokeless delivery systems are being targeted for prohibition more aggressively than the much more dangerous cigarettes. Why is that? Is it so hard to admit that the kind of government folks who tend to favor prohibition as the default solution to social "problems" are generally insane?

You forget the most important thing about smoking a cigarette. It is a social thing. A smoke together. Sharing a cigarette. A way to start communicate. I used to have cigarettes on me myself or even just a lighter when i was young. Not to smoke, but a great way to start a conversation. While not smoking myself, it can be a means to talk to that lovely young lady. All the people i know who smoke all have one thing in common. They do not want nicotine patches or electric cigarettes. They just want a smoke and a few minutes of social talk or just being alone.

 

[JSt0rm]

Think of how many jobs .gov made with 1 trillion in wod spending.

 

[Mursilis]

Yeah, so what? How did prohibition of alcohol work out? Everyone still drank who wanted to, and there was a massive increase in crime surrounding the bootlegging.

Usually you're better at reading comprehension, BF. As I already stated, I'm in favor of drug legalization, just because I don't want the gov't playing nanny for adults; however, I don't see any evidence that it will, as GuitarDaddy claims, reduce usage rates. Two different things.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Yeah, so what? How did prohibition of alcohol work out? Everyone still drank who wanted to, and there was a massive increase in crime surrounding the bootlegging.

You people always forget the effects of the great depression in the US. No jobs, massive lay offs. Think for a minute about what is going on in Mexico and compare it.

 

[xj0hnx]

however, I don't see any evidence that it will, as GuitarDaddy claims, reduce usage rates. Two different things.

Very few places have tried it but the ones that have indicate that usage dropped.

 

[William Gaatjes]

That really doesn't answer my question about usage rates.

The amount of usage depends not on how illegal / legal some substance is. Well, for a small group of dumbest people it is, people who only want to do something because it is forbidden. But i honestly have difficulty believing that is a reason in reality. The main reason i have always seen is usage goes down when poverty goes down and problems get solved. Then a die hard group is left over who are mainly people who need psychiatric help. But...

After that there is i have to admit there are subcultures that just want to use for whatever reason. Mostly it is despair, even when they will not admit it( But do not want children, do not want to progress on the job and just want to party and die one day without caring of anything because in their eyes the world is fucked already). They claim the government is corrupt, conspiracies everywhere yada yada yada same old same old.

In the Netherlands, when cannabis was legalized the amount of cannabis smokers increased then stabilized while the amount of hard drug(cocaine heroine, speed) users decreased. But the Netherlands have always seen that a social culture is very important. Unfortunately, there is an increase in coke use for the last years and it shows in more egoistic and violent behavior of youth. And a decrease in moral and normal socal behavior. I fear for the future social culture, It has been declining the last few years. Although MDMA was very popular for a while in the party scene, it never made people violent. However some people had psychotic problems since they used MDMA although rare. Others can no longer party without using. It is for them just no fun. Difficult to say how these people function in real life. They do need a party frequently and afcourse their substance. Coke is cool now, but fights are occurring more often and are more violent. While the chance for a job is in average to ok. When looking at ethnic groups, disturbing pictures arise. It is not the immigrants that use much drugs or alcohol in fact most keep it to cannabis because of religion or motivation. It is the locals who prefer to use sniffing cocaine because they can drink more while taking a sniff once every half hour. Very strange behavior indeed. Drink alcohol to show you are cool, but do not want to get drunk and thus cocaine or SOS is used. It is the "we are living large behavior". I cannot explain it. It is beyond me.


When speaking of Portugal, I only know that during the legalization of all drugs, there was also an increase in wealth because of being an EU country.
I fear for what is obvious...

 

[nonlnear]

You forget the most important thing about smoking a cigarette. It is a social thing. A smoke together. Sharing a cigarette. A way to start communicate. I used to have cigarettes on me myself or even just a lighter when i was young. Not to smoke, but a great way to start a conversation. While not smoking myself, it can be a means to talk to that lovely young lady. All the people i know who smoke all have one thing in common. They do not want nicotine patches or electric cigarettes. They just want a smoke and a few minutes of social talk or just being alone.

I wasn't forgetting it at all. That is peripheral to the question of policing the substance (or more precisely its specific modes of consumption). I don't know if things are similar in the Netherlands (I assume that's where you are, right?) but here in the US there has been a push in many parts of the country and also federally to make e-cigarettes either illegal or at least much more difficult to obtain than cigarettes. The only sane conclusion is that the people who push these policies are truly malicious monsters and don't care one bit for their claimed policy goals, but prefer to wield power for its own sake. In light of that I was getting at the question of why the powers that be have chosen to focus more attention at prohibiting a much safer and less unhealthy mode of nicotine consumption than the horribly damaging smoke form.

Perhaps health authorities in Europe are more level headed than over here. In fact I suspect that in some ways this is very likely the case...

 

[Joepublic2]

Wow color me surprised that govt can't effectively legislate away substance consumption. There's strong evidence that a libertarian approach works best here.

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html

The paper, published by Cato in April, found that in the five years after personal possession was decriminalized, illegal drug use among teens in Portugal declined and rates of new HIV infections caused by sharing of dirty needles dropped, while the number of people seeking treatment for drug addiction more than doubled.

Basically Portugal has proven that the most effective role government in a western society can play in substance abuse is that of harm reduction: people are going to use drugs for a variety of reasons, so minimize the deleterious effects on a society that this drug usage creates.

 

[William Gaatjes]

I wasn't forgetting it at all. That is peripheral to the question of policing the substance (or more precisely its specific modes of consumption). I don't know if things are similar in the Netherlands (I assume that's where you are, right?) but here in the US there has been a push in many parts of the country and also federally to make e-cigarettes either illegal or at least much more difficult to obtain than cigarettes. The only sane conclusion is that the people who push these policies are truly malicious monsters and don't care one bit for their claimed policy goals, but prefer to wield power for its own sake. In light of that I was getting at the question of why the powers that be have chosen to focus more attention at prohibiting a much safer and less unhealthy mode of nicotine consumption than the horribly damaging smoke form.

Perhaps health authorities in Europe are more level headed than over here. In fact I suspect that in some ways this is very likely the case...

Perhaps, but i am afraid the politicians in the EU are no different from the politicians in the US. Perhaps politicians are a separate species though : homo avaritia.

I reside in the Netherlands and there is if you can read dutch an enormous amount of literature about drugs (ab)use. Because the institutes to help addicted people or to prevent usage are very open in their statements and numbers on use and what kind of substances. There is no gain to lie about the effects of substance (ab)use.

Nicotine pills, Nicotine chewing gum. Nicotine patches. These are all it seems registered as medicines. De e-cigarette or electronic cigarette is for sale as well. But all these means are not popular. People who want to smoke just want a cigarette. Those who want to stop or reducing their smoking habits choose these alternative products for smoking. But there is something interesting going on that probably will sound familiar. There are politicians complaining that less tax income on cigarettes will be earned when the e-cigarette becomes popular. And thus some politicians want the e-cigarettes to be sold as a pharmaceutical product. So some parallels can be found in the politics of both countries.

But you can buy nicotine patches and pills online. I do not know how legal that is though...

 

[William Gaatjes]

Wow color me surprised that govt can't effectively legislate away substance consumption. There's strong evidence that a libertarian approach works best here.

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html



Basically Portugal has proven that the most effective role government in a western society can play in substance abuse is that of harm reduction: people are going to use drugs for a variety of reasons, so minimize the deleterious effects on a society that this drug usage creates.

But do not forget, that is more because of a proactive attitude to help addicts to solve their addiction then because of legalizing. When stigmatizing drug addicts you do not help those addicts and that is what Portugal realized the most. Legalizing cannabis is something that will help a lot of people. But it does not end there. There has to be a pro active attitude on prevention. No glorifying of drugs. Just honest truth. That will also prevent people from using hard drugs and will increase in general the aversion against hard drugs.
And afcourse their are other reasons why the amount of users decreased.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Another strange trend is that students who do not suffer from ADHD use high amounts of ritalin because they claim ritalin increases their concentration and they can study better and get because of ritalin usage higher grades. How about parents asking there doctors because they want to see higher grades of their children.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14590058/


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylphenidate

Methylphenidate (MPH; Ritalin, Concerta, Metadate or Methylin) is a psychostimulant drug approved for treatment of attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder, Postural Orthostatic Tachycardia Syndrome, and narcolepsy. It may also be prescribed for off-label use in treatment-resistant cases of lethargy, depression, neural insult, obesity, and rarely other psychiatric disorders such as Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder. Methylphenidate belongs to the piperidine class of compounds and increases the levels of dopamine and norepinephrine in the brain through reuptake inhibition of the monoamine transporters. MPH possesses structural similarities to amphetamine, and, though it is less potent, its pharmacological effects are even more closely related to those of cocaine.[1][2] MPH is most commonly known by the Novartis trademark name Ritalin, which is an instant-release
racemic mixture, although a variety of formulations and generic brand names exist.[3]

It sounds insane but it seems to be quite popular.

 

[bfdd]

Strange that you mention that about cigarettes. I see a very good black market around here for brand cigarettes. But i (It is proven as well) see a lot of diseases associated with smoking. And over the whole world more and more voices arises smoking should be forbidden. And the health care costs are quite large (Cancer, heart diseases). And the benefits none existent( With the exception of schizophrenic people, they seem to have a benefit from nicotine).
And they are also the group that will increase to smoke more. And i noticed that the smokers around me actually do smoke more over time while not having a psychiatric history. I agree that there is a limit but common, a pack of 25 cigarettes a day ?

It's rather hard to find "black market" tobacco or alcohol for the most part in the states. Sure people are doing it and making money off it, but it's no where near the scale of the illegal drugs.

 

[bfdd]

Another strange trend is that students who do not suffer from ADHD use high amounts of ritalin because they claim ritalin increases their concentration and they can study better and get because of ritalin usage higher grades. How about parents asking there doctors because they want to see higher grades of their children.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14590058/


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylphenidate



It sounds insane but it seems to be quite popular.

Adderrall is more popular.

 

[CallMeJoe]

To paraphrase a Second Amendment meme,
If you outlaw drugs, then only outlaws will deal drugs.

Prohibition of drugs is the largest and most direct possible subsidy of criminal cartels.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Adderrall is more popular.

I looked Adderall up, i never heard of it.
Incredible what people do.
I feel unlucky, caffeine for example is good for my digestive system. But it has no effect on my brain.