Asking ATOT about education

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

So I'm finishing up my undergraduate degree in the next year and I know that nowadays a masters degree is almost necessary to get further in life, especially with engineering being such a popular field. I've pretty much decided to go to graduate school already although my parents and I still disagree on the exact details.

I would like to work a year or two before going back to school. Preferably a year or so. I will be done with my GREs in less than a few days meaning I could technically apply this fall for graduate school, but I'd like to give my GPA another shot at moving up a bit more. That's also why I would like to work for a year.

But my main concern is where to get a masters degree. I'm a native Californian and that means we have access to THE BEST public school system in the world. I have no problem with going back to Cal and doing a graduate degree there. Of course getting admitted is a different story. So even if I were to be realistic and to go to a lower tier UC school, I would be happy. On the other hand there are those that tell me that going to a UC system or better means suicide unless you're going for the full PhD. I can see where that thinking comes from considering the UCs are research based institutions.... The Cal State schools, although of much lower quality offer the perfect path for someone going for a masters only...

what do you guys think?

Edit: Someone pressed the Post button too early... As I was saying the UC schools want you to go for your PhD. I'm sure a lot of other better schools like private institutions want the same. Supposedly professors will scerw you over if all you're trying to get is a masters. IMHO the MS degree is the most overrated degree in the world... ok no.. the MBA is, but the MS is a close second. While you might be stronger in technical knowledge by a notch, working in the real world it's not going to make a huge difference 5 years later. I can bet you the guy with a BS degree can do the same things you can do. Maybe you'll be looked upon better, but once again it's more of a e-penis thing. If that gets you further in life, then sure that's why I'll go for my MS.

I don't think I'm ready to jump into 5 years of school to get a PhD though... so I really am not sure what to do about graduate school. A bunch of my coworkers are taking classes at a state school which is definitely not bad in the field of engineering considering we are from the Bay Area, and that is how they are going about their masters. They all came from UC schools too for undergraduate. Being the elitist I am, I would of course like to go to a nice school for my graduate degree... but if it's going to be a problem because of the PhD thing then maybe I should look at a state school?

 

[krunchykrome]

Im not sure I picked up on why you wanted a PhD.

 

[Special K]

First of all, don't go to engineering grad school unless someone is paying you to do it. That could be an employer, or the school may offer you funding in the form of a TA, RA, or fellowship.

Second, you are correct that schools will not give funding to people who indicate an MS as their only goal. If you have any interest at all in pursuing a PhD, mark that on your application. There's no obligation to stay for one if you don't want to, but if you mark you only want the MS, then you probably won't get funding.

As to your second point, I went for the MS because my undergrad school did not have a particularly high-ranked engineering program. I believe it was in the 40s at the time. Going to a top school for my MS allowed me to network with many high-tech companies that I would have never had any exposure to as an undergrad because they had no relationship with my school. However, you went to Cal for undergrad, which has a great engineering program, so maybe the MS wouldn't be as useful to you in that respect, because I know all of these companies recruit at Cal.

 

[RollWave]

I think you're really mistaken about the MS if you're talking about anything science related. If you're an engineer or working biotech your pay grade is SIGNIFICANTLY higher. In many cases its good enough that the PHD isnt worth going for since the MS will get you a good chunk of change.

 

[Parasitic]

What engineering field?
Cal has MEng programs readily available for ME, CEE, and I think even EECS? Those are coursework-based degrees that shouldn't take more than two years, and if you're a California resident then it's not all that much more expensive.

A masters gets you started at about $70-80k in most companies if you have no experience, wheres in some engineering fields you can get out with a BS and make $65-75k (process and petroleum comes to mind). So if the size of your future salary is a concern then you probably shouldn't go to grad school (especially a PhD).

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: Special K
First of all, don't go to engineering grad school unless someone is paying you to do it. That could be an employer, or the school may offer you funding in the form of a TA, RA, or fellowship.

Definitely something to look into. I know where I work, they will pay for furthering your education. I don't know as much about getting a PhD with it, but I've been looking into getting a Masters in some field ( still not sure which! ).

I'm also not sure how some businesses would prefer an undergrad rather than a graduate. You may get more money with a masters, but wouldn't they rather take in a person with a BS for an entry level position and pay them less for the same work?

 

[JDMnAR1]

Just as food for thought, if you are set on an advanced degree, and you ever envision yourself transitioning into management, an MBA might actually be a decent choice. Granted, it isn't going to be a value-add as far as engineering goes, but it will give you a different outlook than if you continue to focus on the technical. Believe it or not, some employers actually look for the combination of a BS/MBA when hiring, thinking that it might produce a more well rounded employee.

 

[bonkers325]

apply to MS-PhD program, get a full ride, then "decide" that you dont want to get your PhD and leave with an MS.

dont do full time work and goto school at the same time. as an entry level engineer, u will be expected to pull overtime almost every week. and by the time u do graduate, u will already have your PE and an MS wont really mean much anymore. you get promotions based on experience and capability - as long as u have a BS in engineering u will be able to climb the ladder.

PhD employees in the engineering field are also more likely to get pigeon-holed. u will be trained to do one or two tasks, and u will become an expert at doing it. then u will do it for the rest of your career.

 

[homercles337]

Its all about research. If you want to do research as a career and get paid well for it, get the phd. If you just want higer pay to do shit that someone with a bachelors does then do the masters.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

Originally posted by: Special K
First of all, don't go to engineering grad school unless someone is paying you to do it. That could be an employer, or the school may offer you funding in the form of a TA, RA, or fellowship.

Second, you are correct that schools will not give funding to people who indicate an MS as their only goal. If you have any interest at all in pursuing a PhD, mark that on your application. There's no obligation to stay for one if you don't want to, but if you mark you only want the MS, then you probably won't get funding.

As to your second point, I went for the MS because my undergrad school did not have a particularly high-ranked engineering program. I believe it was in the 40s at the time. Going to a top school for my MS allowed me to network with many high-tech companies that I would have never had any exposure to as an undergrad because they had no relationship with my school. However, you went to Cal for undergrad, which has a great engineering program, so maybe the MS wouldn't be as useful to you in that respect, because I know all of these companies recruit at Cal.

I see wha you mean about indicatnig that there's interest in a PhD, but isn't that just blatant lying? I mean they might treat you well while you get your MS because they think you're going for a PhD also, but when I get outta there with my MS, then I'll just be screwed in terms of recommendations won't I?

Anyways, I'm studying Materials Science Engineering, which is a field that is heavy in research. There's still the engineering aspect to it, but I'd say it's a lot less than programs like ME and surely EECS. I'd say the MS is almost necessary for this major.

Also, anyone have any opinions on MS and MEng? I'd assume that MSes are looked upon as slightly better due to the research nature and while the MEng is almost just an easy way out because it's just clases. But I don't know that much anyways...

 

[Special K]

Originally posted by: bonkers325
apply to MS-PhD program, get a full ride, then "decide" that you dont want to get your PhD and leave with an MS.

dont do full time work and goto school at the same time. as an entry level engineer, u will be expected to pull overtime almost every week. and by the time u do graduate, u will already have your PE and an MS wont really mean much anymore. you get promotions based on experience and capability - as long as u have a BS in engineering u will be able to climb the ladder.

PhD employees in the engineering field are also more likely to get pigeon-holed. u will be trained to do one or two tasks, and u will become an expert at doing it. then u will do it for the rest of your career.

A lot of engineering fields have no reason to get a PE, so that point may not even be relevant to this discussion.

 

[potoba]

Originally posted by: homercles337
Its all about research. If you want to do research as a career and get paid well for it, get the phd. If you just want higer pay to do shit that someone with a bachelors does then do the masters.

true! people with bachelors dont know anything yet (right off school). People with masters still dont know anything yet... People with Ph.Ds know only one thing...

And that one thing makes you feel good.

 

[Special K]

Originally posted by: DLeRium

Originally posted by: Special K
First of all, don't go to engineering grad school unless someone is paying you to do it. That could be an employer, or the school may offer you funding in the form of a TA, RA, or fellowship.

Second, you are correct that schools will not give funding to people who indicate an MS as their only goal. If you have any interest at all in pursuing a PhD, mark that on your application. There's no obligation to stay for one if you don't want to, but if you mark you only want the MS, then you probably won't get funding.

As to your second point, I went for the MS because my undergrad school did not have a particularly high-ranked engineering program. I believe it was in the 40s at the time. Going to a top school for my MS allowed me to network with many high-tech companies that I would have never had any exposure to as an undergrad because they had no relationship with my school. However, you went to Cal for undergrad, which has a great engineering program, so maybe the MS wouldn't be as useful to you in that respect, because I know all of these companies recruit at Cal.

I see wha you mean about indicatnig that there's interest in a PhD, but isn't that just blatant lying? I mean they might treat you well while you get your MS because they think you're going for a PhD also, but when I get outta there with my MS, then I'll just be screwed in terms of recommendations won't I?

Anyways, I'm studying Materials Science Engineering, which is a field that is heavy in research. There's still the engineering aspect to it, but I'd say it's a lot less than programs like ME and surely EECS. I'd say the MS is almost necessary for this major.

Also, anyone have any opinions on MS and MEng? I'd assume that MSes are looked upon as slightly better due to the research nature and while the MEng is almost just an easy way out because it's just clases. But I don't know that much anyways...

They won't care if you leave. First of all, to officially get into the PhD program, you must find an advisor to work for (preferrably one with available funding who is working on a project you are interested in) and pass your qualifying exams. It's not like you enter into the PhD program by default after completing the MS.

I guess if you know in your mind you have absolutely zero intention of pursuing a PhD, then perhaps it might be unethical to indicate that on your application just for the sake of getting funding. However, if you have even the slightest interest in it, you might as well mark it because it will open the doors to funding and it won't hurt you if you change your mind.

All of my refs are from professors I TA'd under while I was a grad student. Neither of them were conducting research in fields I was interested in, so they probably couldn't have cared less if I chose to go on for the PhD or not.

 

[Special K]

Originally posted by: homercles337
Its all about research. If you want to do research as a career and get paid well for it, get the phd. If you just want higer pay to do shit that someone with a bachelors does then do the masters.

I found research in my field to be incredibly boring. It seemed like half of the ideas that get churned out just wind up buried in a journal somewhere that no one will ever read again, except maybe the original author, who might pick up the paper a year later, make some small modifications to it, then republish it to help pad their CV. There seemed to be a large disconnect between industry and academia.


Then again, there are tons of fields of research out there, and what I said about mine may not necessarily apply to any others.

 

[potoba]

Originally posted by: Special K

Originally posted by: homercles337
Its all about research. If you want to do research as a career and get paid well for it, get the phd. If you just want higer pay to do shit that someone with a bachelors does then do the masters.

I found research in my field to be incredibly boring. It seemed like half of the ideas that get churned out just wind up buried in a journal somewhere that no one will ever read again, except maybe the original author, who might pick up the paper a year later, make some small modifications to it, then republish it to help pad their CV. There seemed to be a large disconnect between industry and academia.


Then again, there are tons of fields of research out there, and what I said about mine may not necessarily apply to any others.

what's your field?

 

[Special K]

Originally posted by: potoba

Originally posted by: Special K

Originally posted by: homercles337
Its all about research. If you want to do research as a career and get paid well for it, get the phd. If you just want higer pay to do shit that someone with a bachelors does then do the masters.

I found research in my field to be incredibly boring. It seemed like half of the ideas that get churned out just wind up buried in a journal somewhere that no one will ever read again, except maybe the original author, who might pick up the paper a year later, make some small modifications to it, then republish it to help pad their CV. There seemed to be a large disconnect between industry and academia.


Then again, there are tons of fields of research out there, and what I said about mine may not necessarily apply to any others.

what's your field?

IC Design

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

Originally posted by: Special K

Originally posted by: DLeRium

Originally posted by: Special K
First of all, don't go to engineering grad school unless someone is paying you to do it. That could be an employer, or the school may offer you funding in the form of a TA, RA, or fellowship.

Second, you are correct that schools will not give funding to people who indicate an MS as their only goal. If you have any interest at all in pursuing a PhD, mark that on your application. There's no obligation to stay for one if you don't want to, but if you mark you only want the MS, then you probably won't get funding.

As to your second point, I went for the MS because my undergrad school did not have a particularly high-ranked engineering program. I believe it was in the 40s at the time. Going to a top school for my MS allowed me to network with many high-tech companies that I would have never had any exposure to as an undergrad because they had no relationship with my school. However, you went to Cal for undergrad, which has a great engineering program, so maybe the MS wouldn't be as useful to you in that respect, because I know all of these companies recruit at Cal.

I see wha you mean about indicatnig that there's interest in a PhD, but isn't that just blatant lying? I mean they might treat you well while you get your MS because they think you're going for a PhD also, but when I get outta there with my MS, then I'll just be screwed in terms of recommendations won't I?

Anyways, I'm studying Materials Science Engineering, which is a field that is heavy in research. There's still the engineering aspect to it, but I'd say it's a lot less than programs like ME and surely EECS. I'd say the MS is almost necessary for this major.

Also, anyone have any opinions on MS and MEng? I'd assume that MSes are looked upon as slightly better due to the research nature and while the MEng is almost just an easy way out because it's just clases. But I don't know that much anyways...

They won't care if you leave. First of all, to officially get into the PhD program, you must find an advisor to work for (preferrably one with available funding who is working on a project you are interested in) and pass your qualifying exams. It's not like you enter into the PhD program by default after completing the MS.

I guess if you know in your mind you have absolutely zero intention of pursuing a PhD, then perhaps it might be unethical to indicate that on your application just for the sake of getting funding. However, if you have even the slightest interest in it, you might as well mark it because it will open the doors to funding and it won't hurt you if you change your mind.

All of my refs are from professors I TA'd under while I was a grad student. Neither of them were conducting research in fields I was interested in, so they probably couldn't have cared less if I chose to go on for the PhD or not.

Thanks for the advice! I don't think I'm 100% sure that I'm not going to do a PhD. I'm not vehemently opposed to it. My parents are pushing hard to get me to jump into grad school right after I graduate. Assuming that does happen, and I also pursue a PhD, I won't ever be able to really work till who knows when. That sucks doesn't it? Or at least that seems to suck initially.

Based on that I don't really want to do a PhD just yet, but hey... I'm open to all ideas. 3 years ago I would've never thought I would do my GREs now and think so hard about grad school, but I guess I am doing that now.

 

[MrBond]

Originally posted by: DLeRium

Based on that I don't really want to do a PhD just yet, but hey... I'm open to all ideas. 3 years ago I would've never thought I would do my GREs now and think so hard about grad school, but I guess I am doing that now.

I would do it now rather than waiting. It's just like when people consider taking "a year off" between high school and college, then never end up going back to school. You'll get out of college and start earning money and you'll never want to go back to school again. Once you're in that "school mode" you won't find it as hard.

I sort of took off 7 months between graduation and grad school and let me tell you, if the job was a permanent position, I would have never gone back to school. We graduate in December so I worked from Jan-August at a company I co-oped with as an undergrad. Those steady paychecks were really nice and it's really nice to come home from work and be done with it for the day.

Going back to grad school meant a 50% pay cut and looonnng days (and much harder work). Of course once I got my masters degree I'm now making much more than I did in either grad school or working (still long days sometimes though). I also would not have gotten this position if it weren't for my graduate degree.