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Asian stocks fall on first trading day after U.S. credit downgrade

JSt0rm

Lifer
http://www.cnn.com/2011/BUSINESS/08/08/global.economy/

Republicans got their wish. They can now pin this on obama and try to win in 2012. Lets hope people can see thru the bullshit.

In afternoon trading, Tokyo's Nikkei index fell 240 points, or 2.5%.
South Korea's KOSPI index slipped 6.2%. In Australia, the All Ordinaries index lost 2.2%. The Shanghai composite slipped 3.7% lower.
Hong Kong's Hang Seng index tumbled 4%.
Similarly, U.S. stock futures were down about 2.5% across the board in early electronic trading Monday. The Dow Industrials are poised to open some 268 points lower.
 
http://www.cnn.com/2011/BUSINESS/08/08/global.economy/Republicans got their wish. They can now pin this on obama and try to win in 2012. Lets hope people can see thru the bullshit.

The double dip was guaranteed the moment you handed out money like candy. That's because you solved nothing, you fixed nothing. You put the economy on crack to MASK the depression.

Well guess what? It's time to pay. Reality has come knocking and you get to whine how you had nothing to do with it. It's those other guys, they stopped you from paying your bills. Maybe you should have thought of that before trying to kill the free market with printed money.

It doesn't grow on trees, !@#$%.
 
Well maybe if Democrats payed more attention to what the people wanted they wouldn't have lost the midterm elections. But oh wait I forgot, all the Democrats' failures are the Republicans' fault. Because Democrats just love to play the victim it seems.

You guys are the 2nd political super-power in the united states. If the Republicans are screwing you so badly, then do something about it. Maybe get the economy going in the right direction, sustainably, before addressing a controversy like healthcare reform.

In the meantime I'm sick of hearing Democrats playing the victim. Almost makes me want to vote for Perry. Almost... at least the Republicans have balls.
 
The double dip was guaranteed the moment you handed out money like candy. That's because you solved nothing, you fixed nothing. You put the economy on crack to MASK the depression.

Well guess what? It's time to pay. Reality has come knocking and you get to whine how you had nothing to do with it. It's those other guys, they stopped you from paying your bills. Maybe you should have thought of that before trying to kill the free market with printed money.

It doesn't grow on trees, !@#$%.

Interestingly enough our credit rating was just fine before this whole clusterfuck. If there's no crisis, we can always manufacture a crisis... amirite?
 
Republicans got their wish. They can now pin this on obama and try to win in 2012. Lets hope people can see thru the bullshit.

I was going to say that. "Yep! Old John Boehner got his 98%".
And if you are not too faint at heart... take a peek at your 401K.
Still have 98% of that left? hehehe...OUCH!

Apparently, tea baggers don't have 401k's. And republicans in the house and senate naturally, as we all well know, don't need one. All those reds in the house and senate already have your IOU tax dollars in their pockets. Lifetime government pensions and government paid healthcare. SWEET....!
Naturally they don't (as Bill Clinton would say) give a hoot about silly things like 401K's or social security, and toss in there affordable non profit healthcare.

And those tea baggers never worry about stuff like that either. Sarah and Michele told them not to.

Oh... btw... If your 401K zeros out, and your retirement social security is gutted as planned, which one of your children will you be moving in with at the age of 65?
And for all you kids out there... remember how long dad takes in the bathroom, that after smell, and how cranky he gets when you want to change the tv channel.
Enjoy!
 
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These are the same ratings agencies that rated junk subprime AAA before it went to zero. Shit is shit, a fake rating isn't going to stop the collapse anymore than declaring that shit smells like roses. USA is Greece on steroids and can't possibly repay its debts in real terms, anything more than a junk rating is hilariously generous.
 
These are the same ratings agencies that rated junk subprime AAA before it went to zero. Shit is shit, a fake rating isn't going to stop the collapse anymore than declaring that shit smells like roses. USA is Greece on steroids and can't possibly repay its debts in real terms, anything more than a junk rating is hilariously generous.

You're fucking retarded. Compare Treasury spreads or CDS to other sovereign issuers before this whole legislative clusterfuck and tell me what you see. Oh that's right, this whole thing was manufactured by people like yourself: My dogma says there needs to be a crisis/collapse, so let's make one woooo.

On a side note, mentioning repayment in "real terms" only signal you have very little idea about what you're talking about.
 
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http://www.cnn.com/2011/BUSINESS/08/08/global.economy/

Republicans got their wish. They can now pin this on obama and try to win in 2012. Lets hope people can see thru the bullshit.

In afternoon trading, Tokyo's Nikkei index fell 240 points, or 2.5%.
South Korea's KOSPI index slipped 6.2%. In Australia, the All Ordinaries index lost 2.2%. The Shanghai composite slipped 3.7% lower.
Hong Kong's Hang Seng index tumbled 4%.
Similarly, U.S. stock futures were down about 2.5% across the board in early electronic trading Monday. The Dow Industrials are poised to open some 268 points lower.
LOL you blame this on Republicans. What, the debt ceiling raise (the biggest in history, btw) wasn't enough?
The double dip was guaranteed the moment you handed out money like candy. That's because you solved nothing, you fixed nothing. You put the economy on crack to MASK the depression.
Why can't people fvcking grasp this? Fully 10% of the GDP is currently borrowed money. This is very simple math but people keep ignoring it. The economy is up to its gills in moral hazard and systemic debt. It is extremely sick and MORE debt is not the answer.
Interestingly enough our credit rating was just fine before this whole clusterfuck. If there's no crisis, we can always manufacture a crisis... amirite?
Has been at real risk before the repubs and dems started their political theater, and for good reason, the debt path is completely unsustainable and the numbers are very clear on this. Washington has no real path forward that doesn't rely on more debt.
 
LOL you blame this on Republicans. What, the debt ceiling raise (the biggest in history, btw) wasn't enough? Why can't people fvcking grasp this? Fully 10% of the GDP is currently borrowed money. This is very simple math but people keep ignoring it. The economy is up to its gills in moral hazard and systemic debt. It is extremely sick and MORE debt is not the answer.Has been at real risk before the repubs and dems started their political theater, and for good reason, the debt path is completely unsustainable and the numbers are very clear on this. Washington has no real path forward that doesn't rely on more debt.

You do realize that sovereign debt rating has nothing to do with nominal amount of debt? As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure you have no idea what debt rating actually represents.

There was no "crisis" before the DC show started.
 
You do realize that sovereign debt rating has nothing to do with nominal amount of debt? As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure you have no idea what debt rating actually represents.

There was no "crisis" before the DC show started.

What are you talking about? The agencies have had the US on negative watch for months.
 
What are you talking about? The agencies have had the US on negative watch for months.

S&P reaffirmed AAA in april with negative outlook if Washington couldn't pass "meaningful reforms" by 2013. What we got instead of reforms was this cluster fuck that prompted the immediate downgrade.

Rating = how far you are from default.
Rating outlook = if you don't do anything, how far away from default will you be in future

<- ex fixed income analyst at 60B institutional fund.
 
You do realize that sovereign debt rating has nothing to do with nominal amount of debt? As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure you have no idea what debt rating actually represents.

There was no "crisis" before the DC show started.
Arguing that I don't understand the subject matter is a very weak counterpoint to my argument. 🙄
 
S&P reaffirmed AAA in april with negative outlook if Washington couldn't pass "meaningful reforms" by 2013. What we got instead of reforms was this cluster fuck that prompted the immediate downgrade.

Rating = how far you are from default.
Rating outlook = if you don't do anything, how far away from default will you be in future

<- ex fixed income analyst at 60B institutional fund.

Think about the politics of this. You think this would have turned out better if we did this in 2012, an election year? All that happened was our broken system was exposed.

I disagree with your definitions of the ratings. When they are looking at long term bonds they are looking at the risk of default over the life of the bond, by definition credit ratings are forward looking.
 
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Republicans got their wish.

As did you. Incompetence abounds but apparently it's worth it if you can say "X got their wish."

Interesting article on this whole cluster which pretty much calls everyone's judgement into question.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...-to-tea-party-at-expense-of-u-s-taxpayer.html

Standard & Poor’s, the rating company that downgraded the debt of the United States to AA+ from AAA for the first time, now finds itself assailed by investors led by billionaire Warren Buffett for making a political decision that has more to do with Tea Party politics than the financial stability of the U.S.
S&P officials, shrugging off a $2 trillion calculation error, blamed “uncertainty” in the policymaking process on Aug. 5 when they cut the assessment of the U.S. government’s ability to pay its debt, citing Congress’s failure to agree on as much long-term deficit reduction as the credit-rating company wanted. Buffett, the world’s most successful investor, said S&P erred and the U.S. should be rated “quadruple-A.”
The New York-based subsidiary of McGraw Hill Cos., whose inflated grades of mortgage-backed investments -- paid for by the banks that created the toxic debt -- were blamed by Congressional investigators for fueling the financial crisis, rattled investors around the world and provided fodder for President Barack Obama’s rivals in the 2012 elections. U.S. equity futures fell, global stock markets tumbled, oil sank and gold rallied to a record.
“Clearly the ratings downgrade was a ‘political decision’ in the sense that the politics explained the timing of this, because the numbers have been irrefutable for a decade,” said Robert Litan, vice president for research and policy at the Kauffman Foundation in Kansas City, Missouri. “It gives an enormous amount of ammunition to the Tea Party. They said the deal didn’t go far enough and they’ll say ‘see.’”
Ratings Conflict

Litan, a former consultant to the U.S. Treasury, said yesterday in a telephone interview that he agreed with the downgrade, if not the timing. “The charts that show exploding deficits have been around for over a decade,” he said.
S&P’s decision was at odds with the other two main ratings companies, Moody’s Investors Service and Fitch Ratings. Both affirmed their AAA grades on U.S. debt on Aug. 2.
The new rating is the second-highest and puts the U.S. on the same level as Belgium and New Zealand, and above Japan and China. Under S&P’s definitions, debt rated AA is barely different from AAA securities and shows that a borrower’s ability to “meet its financial commitment on the obligation is very strong.”
Markets Tumble

Gold futures surged to a record $1,715.17 an ounce as demand increased for a psychological store of value. Gold, one of 118 elements in the periodic table, pays no interest or dividends like equity or debt.
The dollar depreciated 1.2 percent versus the Swiss franc. Futures on the Standard & Poor’s 500 Index expiring next month lost 2 percent after falling as much as 3 percent. Benchmark indexes in Australia and China tumbled, dropping more than 20 percent from their recent highs. The Stoxx Europe 600 Index fell 1.8 percent to 234.67 points as of 10:24 a.m. in London.
Oil sank as much as 4.3 percent to $83.18 a barrel in electronic trading.
Members of Group of Seven nations agreed to inject liquidity into financial markets as needed and the European Central Bank started buying Italian and Spanish bonds to curb the region’s financial crisis, sparking a rally in the debt of the most-indebted nations.
Hurting Economy

S&P’s action may hurt the U.S. economy over time by increasing the cost of mortgages, auto loans and other lending tied to the interest rates paid on Treasuries. JPMorgan Chase & Co. estimated that a downgrade would raise the nation’s borrowing costs by $100 billion a year. The U.S. spent $414 billion on interest in fiscal 2010, or 2.7 percent of gross domestic product, according to Treasury Department data.
After weeks of debate, lawmakers agreed on Aug. 2 to raise the nation’s $14.3 trillion debt ceiling and put in place a plan to enforce $2.4 trillion in spending reductions over the next 10 years, less than the $4 trillion that S&P had said it preferred.
S&P analysts David Beers and John Chambers said that the “extremely difficult” political discussions over how to reduce the more than $1 trillion budget deficit carried more weight in their decision than the nation’s debt.
The “debate this year has highlighted a degree of uncertainty over the political policymaking process which we think is incompatible with the AAA rating,” Beers said on an Aug. 6 conference call with reporters.
Chambers, the chairman of S&P’s sovereign debt committee said in an interview on Bloomberg Television that “this is a problem that has to be addressed by the full spectrum of political parties.”
Obama Criticism

S&P’s decision provided Republican leaders with an opportunity to criticize Obama’s administration.
Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney, the frontrunner in most polls, said in a statement that the downgrade is a “deeply troubling indicator of our country’s decline under President Obama.”
Senator Jim DeMint, a South Carolina Republican and favorite of the fiscally conservative Tea Party movement who voted against the debt deal, said the downgrade vindicated his decision. “The deal was not a serious attempt to solve our spending and debt problem -- it was a political solution meant to kick the can down the road,” he said.
‘Beyond Their Competence’

Democrats disagreed. “We have the people who helped cause the financial crisis now claiming that they’re the experts on what the American budget should be,” Representative Barney Frank, a Massachusetts Democrat, said in a telephone interview before the downgrade was announced. “It’s beyond their competence and I’m just puzzled that people pay attention.”
S&P maintained its AAA rating on the U.S. during George W. Bush’s presidency as the national debt grew to pay for wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, tax cuts in 2001 and 2003, Medicare prescription drug benefits and the bailout of Wall Street. Together, those costs added $3.4 trillion to the national debt, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.
Obama’s stimulus package will total $830 billion by 2019, according to a May 2011 Congressional Budget Office report, half the cost of the Bush tax cuts and less than two-thirds of what has been spent on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The U.S. went from budget surpluses averaging $139.7 billion from 1998 through 2001 to a deficit of $1.29 trillion last year, Bloomberg data show. The shortfall peaked at $1.42 trillion in 2009, the first year of Obama’s presidency.
BlackRock, Buffett

The debate will continue, said Litan. “Our politics were dysfunctional before this and I think they’ll be even more dysfunctional now,” the former Treasury consultant said. “You’re going to see a lot of finger-pointing.”
BlackRock Inc., the world’s biggest money manager, and Buffett, the chairman of Omaha, Nebraska-based Berkshire Hathaway Inc., said the decision doesn’t reflect any inability of the U.S. to pay its debts.
Treasury prices dropped, with the yield on 10-year notes falling 0.07 percentage point to 2.49 percent as of 10:19 a.m. in London. The yield on the benchmark fell to 2.4 percent on Aug. 4, the lowest since October, as the downgrade loomed. Strategists at JPMorgan said any drop in Treasuries from the ratings cut is unlikely to be “sustained,” while Barclays Plc said effects from the downgrade shouldn’t be “significant.”
There’s been no lack of foreign demand for Treasuries. The amount of U.S. bonds held outside the country has risen to $4.15 trillion from $2.19 trillion in mid 2007.
‘Doesn’t Change Anything’

S&P’s move “doesn’t change anything about the risk of U.S. Treasuries,” Peter Fisher, New York-based BlackRock’s head of fixed income and a former undersecretary of the U.S. Treasury Department, said in a Bloomberg Television interview.
Credit-default swaps that protect against default on U.S. notes for five years fell 11 percent last week to 55.4 basis points, CMA data show. That compares with an increase of 16 percent to 74.2 for swaps linked to Germany, an 18 percent climb to 143.8 for France, and a 4.5 percent increase to 77 for U.K. government securities. S&P rates those countries AAA.
Economists said S&P erred by basing its decision on politics instead of sticking to the assessment of the nation’s finances.
“They think they’re giving an honest appraisal but they have instead become hopelessly entangled in the politics of the national debt,” Chris Rupkey, the chief financial economist at Bank of Tokyo-Mitsubishi UFJ Ltd. in New York, said in a Bloomberg Television interview on Aug. 5. “The U.S. is not out of money, it has the financial resources to make good on its debt, and it should not have been downgraded.”
$2 Trillion Error

John Bellows, the Treasury’s acting assistant secretary for economic policy, said in a blog post that S&P initially overestimated future deficits by $2 trillion over 10 years. “After Treasury pointed out this error -- a basic math error of significant consequence -- S&P still chose to proceed with their flawed judgment by simply changing their principal rationale for their credit-rating decision from an economic one to a political one,” he wrote.
S&P said in a statement that the revision lowered its forecast for the debt-to-gross domestic product ratio in 2015 by two percentage points and didn’t affect its ratings decision. S&P said in the Aug. 5 report that the ratio of debt to GDP would reach 77 percent in 2015 and 78 percent by 2021.
In 2009, when S&P reaffirmed the U.S.’s AAA rating, analysts led by Nikola Swann wrote that the ratio would approach 90 percent by 2013.
‘Always Wrong’

“The old fashioned ratings agencies where humans make the decision to downgrade are always wrong,” Christopher Whalen, managing director at Institutional Risk Analytics, said yesterday in a telephone interview.
S&P came under scrutiny for ratings of financial products linked to subprime mortgages after losses and writedowns by the world’s biggest financial institutions reached $2.1 trillion.
The Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission called S&P and Moody’s “key enablers of the financial meltdown” in its January report. In April, a Senate panel said that the rating companies engaged in a “race to the bottom” to assign top grades on mortgage-backed securities in order to win fees from banks.
S&P kept an A- rating on Iceland until October 6, 2008, when the country’s government was forced to guarantee all domestic bank deposits after its currency plunged. The company reaffirmed its AAA rating for Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc.’s financial products unit on Sept. 12, 2008, three days before the bank failed. It downgraded Bear Stearns Cos. to BBB on March 14, 2008, two days before JPMorgan agreed to buy the failing securities firm.
‘Last People’

“There is no reason to take Friday’s downgrade of America seriously,” Nobel Laureate Paul Krugman said in a New York Times column. “These are the last people whose judgment we should trust.”
While S&P cut Japan’s credit rating to AA- in 2002, the country has no difficulty borrowing. Japan’s 10-year notes yield 1 percent, compared with 2.41 percent for AAA rated German bunds, Bloomberg data show.
“In those rare cases where rating agencies have downgraded countries that, like America now, still had the confidence of investors, they have consistently been wrong,” Krugman wrote.
S&P said in its report that the failure by politicians to act on increasing government revenue also was a consideration in its decision. It no longer assumes that the 2001 and 2003 Bush tax cuts would expire by the end of 2012 “because the majority of Republicans in Congress continue to resist any measure that would raise revenues.”
Politics as Factor

Politics is listed as one of five “key factors” in S&P’s methodology for grading governments. “Part of our analysis assesses how government policymaking affects a sovereign’s credit fundamentals,” Ed Sweeney, a spokesman for the ratings company, said yesterday in a telephone interview.
S&P gives 18 sovereign entities its top ranking. The U.K., with a debt estimated at 80 percent of GDP this year, or 6 percentage points higher than the U.S., has the top credit grade. In contrast with the U.S., its net public debt is forecast to decline either before or by 2015, S&P has said.
“To downgrade you have to argue there’s an increased chance that we won’t pay our debts,” said Peter J. Solomon, founder of New York-based investment bank Peter J. Solomon Co. and a one-time counselor to the Treasury Secretary under President Jimmy Carter. “I don’t think that’s been proven, I think it’s been proven that we always will pay our debts.”
‘Mismanaged Country’

Solomon said yesterday in a telephone interview that politicians are wrong to criticize S&P’s decision. “If I were a politician I wouldn’t shoot the messenger,” he said. “This is really a mismanaged country.”
Alice Rivlin, former President Bill Clinton’s budget director who served on a fiscal commission Obama set up last year, called the downgrade “entirely symbolic.”
S&P “has no inside information and has done no original research, so they aren’t telling anyone anything they didn’t know already,” Rivlin said in an e-mail. “It is not like downgrading a company or a complex security, where they might actually be contributing new information -- although their track record before the crisis doesn’t inspire confidence there either.”

But there is a bright side to all this. You'll get to blame the Conservatives/Reps and they'll get to blame you.

I hope you find it all worthwhile.
 
The silliest quote there is Barney Frank blaming S&P. I'm actually embarrassed for America that an elected representative would say something so dumb on the record.
 
Good morning piglets,

American investment firms can now ask for another government bail out. Sorry - take. There was no asking the 1st time around - they just took. And, they will take more.

The US will get deeper in debt, corporate capitalist pigs will point to all the social program leeches that are placing America into debt (like public schools, social security, high way maintenance, etc) and eventually, the USA will be no more.

Instead, you will all get your dream come true; a nation run like a corporation. Where making money and being productive is the only thing keeping you as a citizen. If you are too sick, old or totally incapable of being productive in any way - you are thrown out of the country. It will be like Sparta in Ancient Greece; if you are born with a disability, you are dead. And, if you head into battle, you better come back victorious or dead.

And, speaking of battle - we'll go back to the ways of Ancient Rome; invade and take other nation's wealth. We all know how well THAT will work out. Oh no, it's OK, this time it will be different!

Also, jail is where the criminals who are physically capable of working will be placed. Cheap labor to build prisons, maintain highways and,... teach/watch your children. Well, not YOUR children - but, the children of those who are lesser than you.

Of course, someone like Trig Palin will be taken care of - even elected into government; to carry on the Palin Dynasty. If you aren't someone like Trig, well, you are SOL.

Here is to the 2nd step towards the future you all didn't know you wanted, but clearly welcome and accept.

/raise glass
 
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Republicans got their wish. They can now pin this on obama and try to win in 2012. Lets hope people can see thru the bullshit.

The republican propaganda machine has just spent its wad and everybody is disappointed with the results except the zealots. Trash talk is great, but once they get in that ring the crowd demands they either produce results or at least expose the competition as obvious cheaters. They did neither and now the crowd wants their money back.
 
Good morning piglets,

American investment firms can now ask for another government bail out. Sorry - take. There was no asking the 1st time around - they just took. And, they will take more.

The US will get deeper in debt, corporate capitalist pigs will point to all the social program leeches that are placing America into debt (like public schools, social security, high way maintenance, etc) and eventually, the USA will be no more.

Instead, you will all get your dream come true; a nation run like a corporation. Where making money and being productive is the only thing keeping you as a citizen. If you are too sick, old or totally incapable of being productive in any way - you are thrown out of the country. It will be like Sparta in Ancient Greece; if you are born with a disability, you are dead. And, if you head into battle, you better come back victorious or dead.

And, speaking of battle - we'll go back to the ways of Ancient Rome; invade and take other nation's wealth. We all know how well THAT will work out. Oh no, it's OK, this time it will be different!

Also, jail is where the criminals who are physically capable of working will be placed. Cheap labor to build prisons, maintain highways and,... teach/watch your children. Well, not YOUR children - but, the children of those who are lesser than you.

Of course, someone like Trig Palin will be taken care of - even elected into government; to carry on the Palin Dynasty. If you aren't someone like Trig, well, you are SOL.

Here is to the 2nd step towards the future you all didn't know you wanted, but clearly welcome and accept.

/raise glass

Actually your co- conspirators only did half the work. They killed any tax increase and you would not cut spending sufficiently to prevent the drop in ratings. I hope you two at have at good secret celebration. Congrats to the both of you. You've locked up DC even tighter so we'll never be free from you. You two are top tier parasites.
 
You're fucking retarded. Compare Treasury spreads or CDS to other sovereign issuers before this whole legislative clusterfuck and tell me what you see. Oh that's right, this whole thing was manufactured by people like yourself: My dogma says there needs to be a crisis/collapse, so let's make one woooo.

On a side note, mentioning repayment in "real terms" only signal you have very little idea about what you're talking about.

The dollar is the reserve currency of the world and many other fiat currencies peg to it, meaning that for as much as we print, others follow suit. That's why gold keeps making new highs, because fiat currencies are in a race to the bottom. If I were an individual paying my debts off with counterfeit notes, I would not be paying off my debt in real terms, I would be depreciating existing holdings in order to do it, which negates the nominal increase. Numbers are not everything.

I bought 10oz of gold at $850 and it's already doubled in dollars. Show me a bond yield or CoD anywhere that's even performed even 10% as well as that.
 
so who will the obama blame for the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac down grades. You know he's going to blame somebody rather his failure on top of failure economic policies.
 
Wow, the global economy is getting teabagged big time. I guess good for me since I am looking to buy a house next year 🙂
 
Wow, the global economy is getting teabagged big time. I guess good for me since I am looking to buy a house next year 🙂

Who knows? Maybe you'll be able to afford the interest rates if they skyrocket. That's assuming you haven't been outsourced.
 
will your obama order the fed.reserve to pump up the failing stock market by buying up futures in a crude attempt to falsely rally the market?? he's done it before.
 
Think about the politics of this. You think this would have turned out better if we did this in 2012, an election year? All that happened was our broken system was exposed.

I disagree with your definitions of the ratings. When they are looking at long term bonds they are looking at the risk of default over the life of the bond, by definition credit ratings are forward looking.


Ratings translate to cumulative probability of default over a time period, every couple years Moody's releases new default studies with updated curves. That is, rating outlook just means that if you'll be on a different default curve in the future if nothing changes.
 
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