As Green as a Neocon

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Finally! Something I can actually respect about the neocons. Perhaps if we had spent the $1Billion+/week we now spend on Iraq instead subsidizing hybrids for more Americans, we could wean ourselves off foreign oil a whole hell of a lot faster.

An interesting read, nonetheless.

As Green as a Neocon
Why Iraq hawks are driving Priuses.
By Robert Bryce
Posted Tuesday, Jan. 25, 2005, at 6:10 AM PT

Listen to this story on NPR's Day to Day.

President Bush has a simple policy about energy: produce more of it. The former oilman has packed his administration with veterans of the oil and coal industries. And for most of the first Bush term, his energy policy and his foreign policy were joined at the hip. Since the Bush administration believed that controlling the flow of oil from the Persian Gulf was critically important to the American economy, the invasion of Iraq seemed to serve both the president's energy goals and his foreign policy ones.

But a curious transformation is occurring in Washington, D.C., a split of foreign policy and energy policy: Many of the leading neoconservatives who pushed hard for the Iraq war are going green. James Woolsey, the former director of the Central Intelligence Agency and staunch backer of the Iraq war, now drives a 58-miles-per-gallon Toyota Prius and has two more hybrid vehicles on order. Frank Gaffney, the president of the Center for Security Policy and another neocon who championed the war, has been speaking regularly in Washington about fuel efficiency and plant-based bio-fuels.

The alliance of hawks and environmentalists is new but not entirely surprising. The environmentalists are worried about global warming and air pollution. But Woolsey and Gaffney?both members of the Project for the New American Century, which began advocating military action against Saddam Hussein back in 1998?are going green for geopolitical reasons, not environmental ones. They seek to reduce the flow of American dollars to oil-rich Islamic theocracies, Saudi Arabia in particular. Petrodollars have made Saudi Arabia too rich a source of terrorist funding and Islamic radicals. Last month, Gaffney told a conference in Washington that America has become dependent on oil that is imported from countries that, "by and large, are hostile to us." This fact, he said, makes reducing oil imports "a national security imperative."

Neocons and greens first hitched up in the fall, when they jointly backed a proposal put forward by the Institute for the Analysis of Global Security, a Washington-based think tank that tracks energy and security issues. (Woolsey is on the IAGS advisory board.) The IAGS plan proposes that the federal government invest $12 billion to: encourage auto makers to build more efficient cars and consumers to buy them; develop industrial facilities to produce plant-based fuels like ethanol; and promote fuel cells for commercial use. The IAGS plan is keen on "plug-in hybrid vehicles," which use internal combustion engines in conjunction with electric motors that are powered by batteries charged by current from standard electric outlets.

The Natural Resources Defense Council and the American Council on Renewable Energy (Woolsey is on the latter's advisory board, too) both endorsed the IAGS plan. The environmental groups, who have been in the weeds ever since George W. Bush moved in at 1600 Pennsylvania, are happy for any help they can get. "It's a wonderful confluence. We agree on the same goals, even if it's for different reasons," says Deron Lovaas, the NRDC's point-man on auto issues.

For Woolsey and Gaffney, the fact that energy efficiency and conservation might help the environment is an unintended side benefit. They want to weaken the Saudis, the Iranians, and the Syrians while also strengthening the Israelis. Whether these ends are achieved with M-16s or hybrid automobiles doesn't seem to matter to them.

They aren't the only Iraq hawks who have joined the cause. The Hudson Institute's Meyrav Wurmser also signed the IAGS plan. In 1996, she was one of the authors?along with Richard Perle and Douglas Feith, of a famous strategy paper for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that called for the overthrow of Saddam Hussein and military assaults against Lebanon and Syria. (Wurmser's married to fellow neocon David Wurmser, an adviser to Dick Cheney, former AEI fellow, and enthusiast for the Iraq war.) Clifford May, the president of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies, endorsed the IAGS scheme, too. And the Committee on the Present Danger is about to join the Prius-and-ethanol crowd, as well. A driving force for America's military buildup since the '50s now reconstituted as an antiterror group, the CPD will issue a paper in the next few months endorsing many elements of the IAGS plan. CPD members include Midge Decter, Jeane Kirkpatrick, Newt Gingrich, and Steve Forbes, as well as Woolsey and Gaffney.

So far, the neocons are the only ones on the right to break with Bush on energy policy. They can do this because opposing the energy policy doesn't cost them anything?either politically or economically. The neocons come mostly out of academia and government so, unlike other conservative Republicans, they have few ties to big business and no significant connections to the energy lobbyists who are so influential with the White House.

Despite the setbacks in Iraq, the green neocons believe they can convince Congress and the White House to adopt their program. May, the head of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies, predicts that House Majority Leader Tom DeLay will be "open to arguments that we can increase and enhance national security for a reasonable price." Gaffney won't name names, but he too is confident, saying, "We continue to enjoy access to and friendships with people who are key policymakers."

If they can convince Congress and the White House to enact meaningful legislation on energy efficiency and conservation?issues that have been marginalized since the Carter administration?then perhaps the neocons will finally have a success story that they can brag about. Better still, it won't require the services of the 82nd Airborne Division.

Robert Bryce, a contributing writer at the Texas Observer, is the author of Cronies: Oil, the Bushes, and the Rise of Texas, America's Superstate.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Interesting...fight the Islamic fundamentalists by eliminating American dependency on their sole source of revenues...attacking the supply lines of the enemy, a strategy that rarely fails.

 
Nov 16, 2004
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The problem is that so much of Bush's support is from petrochemical and energy companies that there is little chance that anything will change from the current bloody status-quo. These people are incapable of thinking outside of their outdated methods for oil production and distribution that the the only response to tightening global supplies is desperately trying to get more.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
These people are incapable of thinking outside of their outdated methods for oil production and distribution that the the only response to tightening global supplies is desperately trying to get more.
The shift in mentality has to come from consumers...we have the technology and research capabilities to explore more fuel efficient and green alternatives to petroleum...the problem is that it will change the nature of the auto and other industries...so long as consumers do not feel these outdated methods in their wallet, it will not initiate change.
 
Nov 16, 2004
25
0
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Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
These people are incapable of thinking outside of their outdated methods for oil production and distribution that the the only response to tightening global supplies is desperately trying to get more.
The shift in mentality has to come from consumers...we have the technology and research capabilities to explore more fuel efficient and green alternatives to petroleum...the problem is that it will change the nature of the auto and other industries...so long as consumers do not feel these outdated methods in their wallet, it will not initiate change.



What you say is true, but right now there is incentive for Big Oil companies to maintain the status quo. Why aren't there more hybrids on the road, even though the few models that have come out are wildly popular? With the bushistas loosening environmental regulations the will to pursue efficiency is trumped by the Almighty Buck. But there may be hope as the whole neo-con plan of securing cheap oil is backfiring hard. High gas prices will motivate consumers to vote for green technologies with their wallets. Lets hope that the US economy doesn't come to a screehing halt before that can happen.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Why aren't there more hybrids on the road, even though the few models that have come out are wildly popular?
Depends on how you define the parameters of the market...do car companies advertise certain vehicle types to create demand, or does demand drive what auto manufacturers produce...or is it perhaps a mix of the two.

There is a huge demand for hybrid cars right now as many Americans are starting to grow conscious of our dependency on oil, its effects on our environment and its limitations as an infinite resource...and many of the car manufacturers are responding with hybrid versions of popular models...the initial hybrid offerings, while innovative, were not particularly attractive...that manufacturers like Honda are offering a hybrid version of the Accord is a good sign...

But

You also have people who simply have to have their Land Rovers, Suburbans, Expeditions, Escalade and Hummers...SUV sizes are going up not down, and their fuel efficiency is decreasing rather then increase...is it the fault of auto manufacturers that a bunch of celebrities jumped on the SUV craze and now every superficial, materialistic, selfish consumer with the money to do so is jumping on the bandwagon?

So the auto manufacturers can certainly do more...but they are a business, and the industry as a whole needs the incentives to change...if one company takes the risk and the others do not follow the industry leader, that innovator could potentially get elbowed out of the market...for true change to occur, the entire industry needs to shift perceptions because they simply have no other choice.
 
Feb 3, 2001
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0
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Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
These people are incapable of thinking outside of their outdated methods for oil production and distribution that the the only response to tightening global supplies is desperately trying to get more.
The shift in mentality has to come from consumers...we have the technology and research capabilities to explore more fuel efficient and green alternatives to petroleum...the problem is that it will change the nature of the auto and other industries...so long as consumers do not feel these outdated methods in their wallet, it will not initiate change.

I dunno; it seems that the market for hybrid vehicles is booming like crazy right now, and there's a lot of talk and funding going on for Hydrogen powered vehicles, too. The first two Hydrogen vending fuel stations opened in So. Cal a couple of months back (And Arnold fueled up his new Hydrogen powered Hummer :) .

If we can get to a point where we don't need to buy foreign oil, and then we can sell the technology cheaply enough to make it a worthwhile change for the other major oil consumers in the world, we'll accomplish two very important and worthwhile goals:

1. The reduction of greenhouse gases that may cause global warming, and

2. We'll reduce the whole middle east to abject poverty, FORCING them to rethink their ways or die.

I like that.

Jason
 
Nov 16, 2004
25
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Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
These people are incapable of thinking outside of their outdated methods for oil production and distribution that the the only response to tightening global supplies is desperately trying to get more.
The shift in mentality has to come from consumers...we have the technology and research capabilities to explore more fuel efficient and green alternatives to petroleum...the problem is that it will change the nature of the auto and other industries...so long as consumers do not feel these outdated methods in their wallet, it will not initiate change.

I dunno; it seems that the market for hybrid vehicles is booming like crazy right now, and there's a lot of talk and funding going on for Hydrogen powered vehicles, too. The first two Hydrogen vending fuel stations opened in So. Cal a couple of months back (And Arnold fueled up his new Hydrogen powered Hummer :) .

If we can get to a point where we don't need to buy foreign oil, and then we can sell the technology cheaply enough to make it a worthwhile change for the other major oil consumers in the world, we'll accomplish two very important and worthwhile goals:

1. The reduction of greenhouse gases that may cause global warming, and

2. We'll reduce the whole middle east to abject poverty, FORCING them to rethink their ways or die.

I like that.

Jason


Of course you realize that in the current state of affairs, #2 would further destabilize the region and make the millions of currently profiting inhabitants of the region MORE pissed off and MORE likely to take up arms. Yes it is necessary to wean ourselves of Middle East oil, but there are ways to go about that won't totally screw oil producing nations.

And there is progress, but what I'm saying is that its not enough, and will not allowed to be enough until US energy policy changes to "whats best for the country" rather than "whats best for my biggest contributors". However, the turn of events taht the article mentions could be the signal for some change. Whether these "green" Neo-con hawks or the energy industry have more pull, its hard to say right now.
 
Feb 3, 2001
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Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
that manufacturers like Honda are offering a hybrid version of the Accord is a good sign...

Even more important than that is that the Hybrid version of the Accord is the TOP OF THE LINE model. Everyone who wants to buy a top-end Accord is getting a hybrid. It has the best mileage, the best cleanliness AND the best performance of the entire Accord line. THAT, my friend, is some damn smart marketing.

Leave it to the Japanese to save us from our sorry SUV gas hog loving selves, heh :) IMHO, Toyota and Honda are at the FOREFRONT of all automotive technology right now. I wouldn't buy an American car for anything.

Jason
 
Feb 3, 2001
5,156
0
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Originally posted by: cannedcreamcorn
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
These people are incapable of thinking outside of their outdated methods for oil production and distribution that the the only response to tightening global supplies is desperately trying to get more.
The shift in mentality has to come from consumers...we have the technology and research capabilities to explore more fuel efficient and green alternatives to petroleum...the problem is that it will change the nature of the auto and other industries...so long as consumers do not feel these outdated methods in their wallet, it will not initiate change.

I dunno; it seems that the market for hybrid vehicles is booming like crazy right now, and there's a lot of talk and funding going on for Hydrogen powered vehicles, too. The first two Hydrogen vending fuel stations opened in So. Cal a couple of months back (And Arnold fueled up his new Hydrogen powered Hummer :) .

If we can get to a point where we don't need to buy foreign oil, and then we can sell the technology cheaply enough to make it a worthwhile change for the other major oil consumers in the world, we'll accomplish two very important and worthwhile goals:

1. The reduction of greenhouse gases that may cause global warming, and

2. We'll reduce the whole middle east to abject poverty, FORCING them to rethink their ways or die.

I like that.

Jason


Of course you realize that in the current state of affairs, #2 would further destabilize the region and make the millions of currently profiting inhabitants of the region MORE pissed off and MORE likely to take up arms. Yes it is necessary to wean ourselves of Middle East oil, but there are ways to go about that won't totally screw oil producing nations.

And there is progress, but what I'm saying is that its not enough, and will not allowed to be enough until US energy policy changes to "whats best for the country" rather than "whats best for my biggest contributors".

Hey, they're gonna hate us for being their customers, they're gonna hate us if we're not. Basically they're gonna hate us no matter what. Since that part doesn't provide any way out, I say screw 'em. Get the oil-free or oil-minimal vehicles on the road as fast as possible and to hell with them. Last thing I'm gonna do is insist we keep buying a minimum amount of oil from these bastards just so they don't get all tweaky.

Jason
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
that manufacturers like Honda are offering a hybrid version of the Accord is a good sign...

Even more important than that is that the Hybrid version of the Accord is the TOP OF THE LINE model. Everyone who wants to buy a top-end Accord is getting a hybrid. It has the best mileage, the best cleanliness AND the best performance of the entire Accord line. THAT, my friend, is some damn smart marketing.

Leave it to the Japanese to save us from our sorry SUV gas hog loving selves, heh :) IMHO, Toyota and Honda are at the FOREFRONT of all automotive technology right now. I wouldn't buy an American car for anything.

Jason

Ford released a hybrid escape this year as well.
 

imported_tss4

Golden Member
Jun 30, 2004
1,607
0
0
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Originally posted by: cannedcreamcorn
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
These people are incapable of thinking outside of their outdated methods for oil production and distribution that the the only response to tightening global supplies is desperately trying to get more.
The shift in mentality has to come from consumers...we have the technology and research capabilities to explore more fuel efficient and green alternatives to petroleum...the problem is that it will change the nature of the auto and other industries...so long as consumers do not feel these outdated methods in their wallet, it will not initiate change.

I dunno; it seems that the market for hybrid vehicles is booming like crazy right now, and there's a lot of talk and funding going on for Hydrogen powered vehicles, too. The first two Hydrogen vending fuel stations opened in So. Cal a couple of months back (And Arnold fueled up his new Hydrogen powered Hummer :) .

If we can get to a point where we don't need to buy foreign oil, and then we can sell the technology cheaply enough to make it a worthwhile change for the other major oil consumers in the world, we'll accomplish two very important and worthwhile goals:

1. The reduction of greenhouse gases that may cause global warming, and

2. We'll reduce the whole middle east to abject poverty, FORCING them to rethink their ways or die.

I like that.

Jason


Of course you realize that in the current state of affairs, #2 would further destabilize the region and make the millions of currently profiting inhabitants of the region MORE pissed off and MORE likely to take up arms. Yes it is necessary to wean ourselves of Middle East oil, but there are ways to go about that won't totally screw oil producing nations.

And there is progress, but what I'm saying is that its not enough, and will not allowed to be enough until US energy policy changes to "whats best for the country" rather than "whats best for my biggest contributors".

Hey, they're gonna hate us for being their customers, they're gonna hate us if we're not. Basically they're gonna hate us no matter what. Since that part doesn't provide any way out, I say screw 'em. Get the oil-free or oil-minimal vehicles on the road as fast as possible and to hell with them. Last thing I'm gonna do is insist we keep buying a minimum amount of oil from these bastards just so they don't get all tweaky.

Jason


Plus its difficult to the pay the families of suicide bombers when you have no money.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,697
6,257
126
Hybrids are all the rage right now, just need more production of them. I think Production will come and more and more Models will at least have Hybrid as an Option. Hopefully it'll be more successful than the Low-Carb diet though. Bring it on!
 

nater

Diamond Member
Jun 18, 2001
3,135
0
0
True, taking away the profits from oil for the region may destabalize it even more, but I think the idea is that it would make those countries come to the table to discuss, not demand, certain economic policies. Right now they have just about all the leverage in the world with everyone begging at their feet for their oil.

And besides, most of the money from oil goes into the hands of the few, not the many. Without the money, the governments/leaderships would basically be forced to change or forced out of power.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
that manufacturers like Honda are offering a hybrid version of the Accord is a good sign...


While I agree that every little bit helps, cars like the Accord use the hybrid label to fool people into the green concept. With a V6 at 255 HP and 29MPG City and 37 on the highway, the car gets little more than many other cars of similar size, especially if you throw a 4 cylinder under the hood. Don't get me wrong, if it increases MPG, it does help, but the automakers trying to "SEXY UP" a hybrid while taking most of the benefits of the conservative aspects of a "good" hybrid, is simply marketing hype and a profit maker.


 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Martin
I guess its finally time for this Liberal Idea to be stolen by the connies.

I think conservatives have always said the market would adapt to rising energy prices....
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
that manufacturers like Honda are offering a hybrid version of the Accord is a good sign...


While I agree that every little bit helps, cars like the Accord use the hybrid label to fool people into the green concept. With a V6 at 255 HP and 29MPG City and 37 on the highway, the car gets little more than many other cars of similar size, especially if you throw a 4 cylinder under the hood. Don't get me wrong, if it increases MPG, it does help, but the automakers trying to "SEXY UP" a hybrid while taking most of the benefits of the conservative aspects of a "good" hybrid, is simply marketing hype and a profit maker.
While what you've said is totally true, the Hybrid Accord and also the Hybrid Escape are much more practical cars for families. Cramming 4-5 people and gear into a Prius or Hybrid Civic is a sacrifice, doing so in a hybrid Accord or Escape is do-able. And while they're not getting upwards of 50+ MPG, they're still doing wayyyyy better than 14 City/19 Hwy (Ford Expedition fuel economy).

An interesting note, the Ford.com web site doesn't even list the Excursion's fuel economy. Wow, that says something right there.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
that manufacturers like Honda are offering a hybrid version of the Accord is a good sign...


While I agree that every little bit helps, cars like the Accord use the hybrid label to fool people into the green concept. With a V6 at 255 HP and 29MPG City and 37 on the highway, the car gets little more than many other cars of similar size, especially if you throw a 4 cylinder under the hood. Don't get me wrong, if it increases MPG, it does help, but the automakers trying to "SEXY UP" a hybrid while taking most of the benefits of the conservative aspects of a "good" hybrid, is simply marketing hype and a profit maker.
While what you've said is totally true, the Hybrid Accord and also the Hybrid Escape are much more practical cars for families. Cramming 4-5 people and gear into a Prius or Hybrid Civic is a sacrifice, doing so in a hybrid Accord or Escape is do-able. And while they're not getting upwards of 50+ MPG, they're still doing wayyyyy better than 14 City/19 Hwy (Ford Expedition fuel economy).

An interesting note, the Ford.com web site doesn't even list the Excursion's fuel economy. Wow, that says something right there.

Maybe becase they no longer make them?
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
that manufacturers like Honda are offering a hybrid version of the Accord is a good sign...


While I agree that every little bit helps, cars like the Accord use the hybrid label to fool people into the green concept. With a V6 at 255 HP and 29MPG City and 37 on the highway, the car gets little more than many other cars of similar size, especially if you throw a 4 cylinder under the hood. Don't get me wrong, if it increases MPG, it does help, but the automakers trying to "SEXY UP" a hybrid while taking most of the benefits of the conservative aspects of a "good" hybrid, is simply marketing hype and a profit maker.
While what you've said is totally true, the Hybrid Accord and also the Hybrid Escape are much more practical cars for families. Cramming 4-5 people and gear into a Prius or Hybrid Civic is a sacrifice, doing so in a hybrid Accord or Escape is do-able. And while they're not getting upwards of 50+ MPG, they're still doing wayyyyy better than 14 City/19 Hwy (Ford Expedition fuel economy).

An interesting note, the Ford.com web site doesn't even list the Excursion's fuel economy. Wow, that says something right there.


The Escape is a big improvement. The Accord, on the other hand, gets 29 vs 24 (for the 4 cyl) and 39 vs 34 (for the 4 cyl). Really not bad for improved gas mileage and improved MPG, but still more of a "sexed up" version because of the Hybrid title. The standard V6 accord gets 21 and 30 respectively, so approximately 25% more MPG. I guess in the grand scheme of things, it's still better than nothing.

P.S. Anyone think that the US could save tons of gasoline/diesel AND cut down on smog simply by implementing smarter and better traffic light patterns. Acceleration uses so much more gas than "cruising". I've noticed in Lexington, major highways will start at a green light at a major intersection only to get stopped 2 blocks away at a minor intersection to allow one car to enter the highway. Seems that the timing could be vastly improved to allow the major flows of traffic to continue to flow while holding the smaller arteries for a little longer. Much more polution cut and mush less gasoline used. Everybody wins (except the small artery highways that have to wait a tad longer to enter the major highways).