As an outsider, I feel I must warn you

[Gage8]

why do these pointless threads always last the longest?

 

[Mookow]

Originally posted by: laserburn
To KenGr: Maybe American government has no significant impact on the live of common American, but it has way too much influence on lives of non-Americans. State department advices American citisens against going in over 100 countries! Ask yourself: Have we done something wrong to make people in all those countries hate us? I have never lived in any other country but mine, so can't say if Americans are freer of government control than lets say Germans, but I feel that there is way too much propaganda in praising the American way. I find it hard to bealive that people would choose living on the street. They are not there to exercize your generocity, they don't want shelters, they want homes, jobs and little respect.
To tcsener: I am not saying i couldn't be wrong about anything. I am offering an outsider view. Feel free to influence my opinion and let me influence yours.
To lucky: Democracy is not American trademark. Most all developed countries are democratic. Remember the 60's, peace protests? Remember how people stood up for what they felt is right? Today US government starts wars all over the world and no one stands to object. What happened to all that energy? Do people only care for cheaper gas they are going to have after Sadam's downfall? Is it alright if Iraqy children die because of it? Have you become one nation, under $ sign, with liberty and justice for none?

Better tell that to the people who were (and still are) protesting the US actions in Iraq, they are only about a mile down the street from me. When I go to 4 Kegs this afternoon, they'll be across the street.

Never mind all the protests that you should have seen on the news, I can confirm right now that people are still protesting in my hometown.

 

[LunarRay]

Laserburn,
Are you familiar with the term "Manifest Destiny"? It is the manifest destiny of the United States to free the world from oppression and thereby, secure for ourselves the freedom to expand our philosophy of life and living throughout the world, solar system and galaxy. It has been revealed to us from the lips of God himself. Nothing short of divine intervention will obviate what has now become the kenetic energy of freedom. The oil is simply a bi-product.
Seek out Moonbeam for a more detailed picture of this oxymoronic tapestry of love.

 

[etech]

I have never lived in any other country but mine, so can't say if Americans are freer of government control than lets say Germans, but I feel that there is way too much propaganda in praising the American way.

Mother Fined for Child's Fear of Dentist

Sun May 25, 8:22 AM
"BERLIN (Reuters) - A German mother was fined $116.9 because her 8-year-old daughter refused to open her mouth for the school dentist.

"The dentist wanted to check her teeth, but the girl was afraid and refused to open her mouth. So the dentist reported her," a court spokesman in the central town of Wernigerode said on Thursday.

Local authorities imposed the fine on the mother and the court upheld that decision. The mother has agreed to pay the fine. "


Let's see, you say you have only lived in one country yet you can judge the American way. Based on what? Where are you getting your information?

 

[Moonbeam]

Don't you just hate it when German Mothers terrorize their kids into eating spinach by threatening them with a visit from Mengele.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Don't you just hate it when German Mothers terrorize their kids into eating spinach by threatening them with a visit from Mengele.

You are too much.

 

[tcsenter]

Never mind all the protests that you should have seen on the news, I can confirm right now that people are still protesting in my hometown.

Sure there are. Democrats still bitter about the election, not just average citizens protesting the war.

 

[Moonbeam]

Sure there are. Democrats still bitter about the election, not just average citizens protesting the war.
-----------------------------------------
I think you mean selection, not election.

 

[laserburn]

To Michael and Mookow: Yes, there were protests. But the actual question is why the majority didn't stand up against something so wrong as starting a war half a world away from US to overthrow some dictator in a country that most Americans cant find on a map. Yes, Sadam is a bad guy, but it goes against every rule in the book to attack a country because it's leader won't do what you say.
To HJD1: My knowlege of English is not good enough to understand irony behind those words.
To etach: I am getting my information mostly from Serbs living in US (almost a milion of them, about a third of them live in Chicago). They like e-chating with folks back home and I feel that they can easily and objectively compare two systems. I also read papers and surf. Milosevic did his best to dig up every dirty detail about America. I bealived none that I've heard and only half of what I saw and still...
I bealive that every one of you agrees that I am right of at least one thing. One thing here, one thing there... Maybe someone will see the big picture eventualy.

 

[Zebo]

To HJD1: My knowlege of English is not good enough to understand irony behind those words.

I hear ya, moonbeam too.

 

[Michael]

laserburn - The majority of people in the US did not think it was wrong to go to war with Iraq. I'll ignore your editorializing about how "wrong" it was. Support for the war was overwhelming in Washington as well.

Your opinion of the morality (right/wrong) doesn't really make any difference. Attacking a country because its leader doesn't do what you say is probably one of the leading reasons for war in history. If they do what you say, there is little reason for war, right?

You're blinding yourself and seem to think your opinions are the only "right" ones. The US is a different country with a different culture and mindset. It can be argued quite strongly that the power and wealth that the US has gives it a different set of responsibilities as well. The protesters were all over the place and very loud and public and their message was no war. The US went to war.

I am not an American but I live in the US.

Michael

 

[LunarRay]

Laserburn, Quote.
To HJD1: My knowlege of English is not good enough to understand irony behind those words.

Gee, I thought it was pretty clear.

Are you familiar with the term "Manifest Destiny"? It is the manifest destiny of the United States to free the world from oppression and thereby, secure for ourselves the freedom to expand our philosophy of life and living throughout the world, solar system and galaxy. MEANS! We, those currently in power and administrations before, believe it a duty of a free people (us) to install freedom where ever the absence of freedom exists. It is an inalienable right of all people to be free.

It has been revealed to us from the lips of God himself. MEANS! "...We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness..." A quote from part of our Declaration of Independence. I assume someone was given the notion that God was involved at some point directly... perhaps Moses.

Nothing short of divine intervention will obviate what has now become the kenetic energy of freedom.
MEANS! That to change the above philosophy God must revisit the issue and speak again perhaps saying something like "I only meant on this one occasion" or the like.

The oil is simply a bi-product. MEANS! You suggested we had other motives and we probably did so I suggested the oil was a part of the scheme but suggest not the main reason.

Seek out Moonbeam for a more detailed picture of this oxymoronic tapestry of love. MEANS! Moonbeam would reasonably and probably conclude the ends don't justify the means. What is freedom if you are dead or love thy neighbor not bomb him (oxymoron). Tapestry = complex and of rich design.

You are well spoken and I was not (in this post) trying to be cryptic or use words to obfuscate the real meaning. Maybe.

 

[jackschmittusa]

Manifest Destiny was the justifacation for getting rid of those damn Indians. They were of course ignorant savages who did not have any idea how to use the land as god intended. Of course, as non-Christians, they weren't to be given much consideration anyway. We were on a divine mission to bring them around to our will or kill them. It was possibly the worst policy against humanity that the U.S. ever carried out. And all under color of god's will. If we are on the same course today, I fear that we will never learn and would deserve to be considered evil by the rest of the world.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
Manifest Destiny was the justifacation for getting rid of those damn Indians. They were of course ignorant savages who did not have any idea how to use the land as god intended. Of course, as non-Christians, they weren't to be given much consideration anyway. We were on a divine mission to bring them around to our will or kill them. It was possibly the worst policy against humanity that the U.S. ever carried out. And all under color of god's will. If we are on the same course today, I fear that we will never learn and would deserve to be considered evil by the rest of the world.

Manifest destiny is a future event accepted as inevitable. The definition; "an ostensibly benevolent or necessary policy of imperialistic expansion" was the one associated with the US issue with going from coast to coast. This is what I think is the difference between what I said and what you said.

:Q

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
Manifest Destiny was the justifacation for getting rid of those damn Indians. They were of course ignorant savages who did not have any idea how to use the land as god intended. Of course, as non-Christians, they weren't to be given much consideration anyway. We were on a divine mission to bring them around to our will or kill them. It was possibly the worst policy against humanity that the U.S. ever carried out. And all under color of god's will. If we are on the same course today, I fear that we will never learn and would deserve to be considered evil by the rest of the world.

Indians and Europeans. Didn't quite get rid of either, but came too close.

 

[laserburn]

To Michael: I can't in my right mind say that the war was righteous. But OK, I will give in, if somebody gives me A SINGLE GOOD REASON for this war. And I don't mean things like we fought for democracy because I can easily explain to you that that's not true. And I don't mean reasons like we needed the oil because that's not really righteous, is it? Michael, I know that right & wrong don't mean anything in politics, but I am trying to establish why did common Americans thought US should go to war.

To HJD1: You got to be kidding?! US fihting for world freedom? That's a good one. US fights only for interests of US! I can give you an example close to my home. USA louched Kosovo campaign in order to establish military presence in that important corridor that links Europe and middle east. US attacked Panama because of the cannal, not because of drug trafficking which US government knew about when they helped Noriega claim power.
Speaking of oxymoron...I bealive that people who signed that decleration of independance used to own slaves.

To jackschmittusa: Unfortunately you are already considered evil by a large part of the world. But it's not too late to change. I myself never perceived Americans as evil or stupid. Just mislead.

 

[jackschmittusa]

Manifest destiny is a future event accepted as inevitable. The definition; "an ostensibly benevolent or necessary policy of imperialistic expansion" was the one associated with the US issue with going from coast to coast. This is what I think is the difference between what I said and what you said.

HJD1

I am sure that that definition was as moraly high sounding in its day as it sounds now. But the fact is that it was used as justifacation theft, murder, curtural destruction, race hatred and many other crimes against humanity. I'm sure that the Indians and Mexicans felt that their lands and culture had a divine right to exist and even had historical persence to bolster their claims.

The expansion was only inevitable because the U.S. had the force of arms to impose their will on others and the numbers to occupy the land as opposing forces were driven off or destryed. And we had the force of will. That will was driven by greed.

The only benevolent aspect in peoples minds at the time was that we would save the pagan Indians from buring in hell. It was necessary to whip the Mexicans because "Who the hell are the Mexicans to make rules for Americans living on Mexican land!"

All of this was done in the name of god.

This was a black period in American history. The term Manefest Destiny carries many dark connotations. There is no way to clean it up and re-use it in a positive way anymore than you could clean up the term holocaust and use it in a positive way.