As an outsider, I feel I must warn you

[laserburn]

I used to browse this forum looking for technical information, but some of the things being said here made me have to act. I have to get a load of my mind and tell you couple of things you should know about your government. I do not intend to hurt anybody?s feelings in this post, please read it carefully and without prejudice.
I live in Yugoslavia (or Serbia & Montenegro as it is called of recently) and I had what you may call a closer look at Uncle Sam?s actions and motives. There are some things you should know:
USA is not the most democratic country in the world!
1. You do not have what is usually called ?social justice?. Government does not care about individuals. You do not have health insurances provided by the government, nor any serious social programs for helping less fortunate. You try finding poor people sleeping under the bridge in France or Germany!
2. As a result of that neglect USA has large crime rates. One of every 100 Americans is in jail. That is unbelievable considering USA national income!
3. You have a political system that consists of only two parties. Big shots are able to grease both of those. Ask yourself how come Microsoft wasn?t punished after all those things it did. America is run by big businesses.
4. Uncle Sam has aggressive and short-sited foreign policy. USA supported numerous dictators in the past that did terrible things to their own people. USA government didn?t care, as long as they were fighting communism. There are many examples: Chile, Argentina, South Africa, Panama, Nicaragua? Whenever those dictators asked USA for a loan, it was granted. Today those countries are among poorest in the world and US has no intentions of writing off their debt. US armed Iraq to fight Iran and ten years after those same weapons were turned against US. Same thing happened in Afghanistan. Here is an example closer to my home: in 1999 US launched its Kosovo campaign, supposing to help repressed Albanians in Kosovo. They coordinated their air strikes with ground attacks of so called Albanian Liberation Army. Today you?ll find Albanian Liberation Army on the list of terrorist organizations! Leaders of ALA stand trial today for their war crimes before human rights tribunal, but I don?t see any equally guilty American generals there.
And I fear the worst is yet to come. When our former dictator Slobodan Milosevic came to power, he used the same rhetoric that Bush is using today (blaming other countries for helping our enemies, accusing free thinkers for lack of patriotism and treason?). I was only a child than but I still remember clearly. He will need more war to expand his authority. You must protest against any further military interventions! As corny as it sounds hate can not be stopped by hate, but only by love. War will only cause even more hate for the USA and even more acts of terrorism.
Please, give me your comments and questions. I will be happy to answer them.

 

[UltraQuiet]

Originally posted by: laserburn
I used to browse this forum looking for technical information, but some of the things being said here made me have to act. I have to get a load of my mind and tell you couple of things you should know about your government. I do not intend to hurt anybody?s feelings in this post, please read it carefully and without prejudice.
I live in Yugoslavia (or Serbia & Montenegro as it is called of recently) and I had what you may call a closer look at Uncle Sam?s actions and motives. There are some things you should know:
USA is not the most democratic country in the world!
1. You do not have what is usually called ?social justice?. Government does not care about individuals. You do not have health insurances provided by the government, nor any serious social programs for helping less fortunate. You try finding poor people sleeping under the bridge in France or Germany!
2. As a result of that neglect USA has large crime rates. One of every 100 Americans is in jail. That is unbelievable considering USA national income!
3. You have a political system that consists of only two parties. Big shots are able to grease both of those. Ask yourself how come Microsoft wasn?t punished after all those things it did. America is run by big businesses.
4. Uncle Sam has aggressive and short-sited foreign policy. USA supported numerous dictators in the past that did terrible things to their own people. USA government didn?t care, as long as they were fighting communism. There are many examples: Chile, Argentina, South Africa, Panama, Nicaragua? Whenever those dictators asked USA for a loan, it was granted. Today those countries are among poorest in the world and US has no intentions of writing off their debt. US armed Iraq to fight Iran and ten years after those same weapons were turned against US. Same thing happened in Afghanistan. Here is an example closer to my home: in 1999 US launched its Kosovo campaign, supposing to help repressed Albanians in Kosovo. They coordinated their air strikes with ground attacks of so called Albanian Liberation Army. Today you?ll find Albanian Liberation Army on the list of terrorist organizations! Leaders of ALA stand trial today for their war crimes before human rights tribunal, but I don?t see any equally guilty American generals there.
And I fear the worst is yet to come. When our former dictator Slobodan Milosevic came to power, he used the same rhetoric that Bush is using today (blaming other countries for helping our enemies, accusing free thinkers for lack of patriotism and treason?). I was only a child than but I still remember clearly. He will need more war to expand his authority. You must protest against any further military interventions! As corny as it sounds hate can not be stopped by hate, but only by love. War will only cause even more hate for the USA and even more acts of terrorism.
Please, give me your comments and questions. I will be happy to answer them.

Well it's a good thing you started posting here because we were all just in this idiotic stupor thinking that the US was a perfect country. If anything important comes up, either in my personal or professional life, I'll be sure to get in contact with you immediately. You are obviously the second smartest person on this board (Moonbeam being the smartest, of course).

Thank God laserburn is here.

 

[CPA]

1) That is correct and that is how it should be.

2) Not neglect, merely too many laws on the books.

3) Kind of a potpourri of issues here. Yes, two major parties, but that is what the public lives with. If we wanted it different, it could happen. MS issue: Do you work for Netscape? America ran by big business > America ran by big government

4) While I won't counter or agree to all the examples of this point, I will state that I agree that the US needs to stay out of most other countries issues and also pull in most of our overseas bases. But you know what would happen if we did? You and your friends would be on here complaining that we were isolationists and complaining that we weren't doing enough to safeguard the world. Example, look at the current S Korea/N Korea issue. China doesn't want to do anything about it, S Korea bitches and moans about our presence, but then backslides when some people suggest we should pull out. And the rest of the world? They sit idly by waiting to see how we are going to handle the N Korea issue. Where's France or Germany?

 

[Zebo]

You are absolutly right. The right wing "heritage foundation" ranks american freedom 9th behind Hong Kong which is first and several european countries. The Left wing Freedom house ranks us 25th because of our lack of regaurd for human rights.


Many people don't travel so don't see it. I've been to almost every european country and almost every Asain country and IMO this is still probabaly the best place as far as a complete package though.

- Widest varity of landscape, hell in California you can Surf, hit the desert for fourwheeling, and ski all in the same day.
- Best opportunities, I became a partime developer this year with no experiance and no barriers to entry.
- Protected against anyone
- Any mid/large size city and carries anything you want from anywhere
- American football not that silly game you'all play ( sports are awesome)
- Freedom to protect youself (2nd amendment)
- Best (but most expensive) medical care
etcetctect

Another point is with Bush and company we are able to do a regime change, unlike solbodan in your former dictatorship.

 

[konichiwa]

Originally posted by: CPA

3) Kind of a potpourri of issues here. Yes, two major parties, but that is what the public lives with.

Wrong. You try starting a third party. Just look at Ralph Nader -- he had a surprisingly large base of support, yet he failed to garner more than, what, 5% of the vote? A two-party system is pretty detrimental and IMO it's due to the immense corruption and convolution of the campaign finance situation.

 

[laserburn]

This is serious stuff.
Ultra quiet, is that the most constructive remark you can give?

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: konichiwa

Originally posted by: CPA

3) Kind of a potpourri of issues here. Yes, two major parties, but that is what the public lives with.

Wrong. You try starting a third party. Just look at Ralph Nader -- he had a surprisingly large base of support, yet he failed to garner more than, what, 5% of the vote? A two-party system is pretty detrimental and IMO it's due to the immense corruption and convolution of the campaign finance situation.

Oh please, Ralph Nader? If he only garnered 5% of the vote, then that means he didn't have a large base of support and probably because of his radical leftist ideals.

I don't argue that money plays a key element in the party system, but if people wanted to really change it they could. Nothing, including money, forces anybody to pull that lever for a Dem or Repub.

 

[Corn]

Well it's a good thing you started posting here because we were all just in this idiotic stupor thinking that the US was a perfect country. If anything important comes up, either in my personal or professional life, I'll be sure to get in contact with you immediately. You are obviously the second smartest person on this board (Moonbeam being the smartest, of course).

Thank God laserburn is here.

[nanny fascist mode] Your posts are insulting and you are a dick. Nobody here likes you and as their self-appointed spokesperson I request that you leave this forum at once! [/]

 

[konichiwa]

Oh please, Ralph Nader? If he only garnered 5% of the vote, then that means he didn't have a large base of support and probably because of his radical leftist ideals.

Fair enough, but perhaps that in and of itself is evidence towards the fact that a third party will most likely never arise, assuming the system stays at it is. Without the exposure that is brought by the obscene amounts of money poured into Dem/Repub campaigns, you will never stand a chance. But I find it a bit hard to swallow the assertion that the reason there has never been a viable third candidate is because the public doesn't want one, or because none exist that have views which coincide with the American peoples' views as a whole.

I don't argue that money plays a key element in the party system, but if people wanted to really change it they could. Nothing, including money, forces anybody to pull that lever for a Dem or Repub.

No, but if you don't know the names of the other candidates because they don't have the money or means to barage you with thousands of advertisements, TV spots and blind telephone calls, your choices are:

Pull the Dem lever
Pull the Repub lever
Find yourself disgusted and not vote at all (which seems to be the road that many are choosing lately)

 

[LunarRay]

Laserburn,
In a forum you may find folks who will agree with you that would not in face to face dialog. Some will agree no matter what. That is their right and I defend it. However, I will critize my government all I please because it IS mine. But, not to you. I will to each citizen who disagrees with me. It is my right to do that too. Each of use who are citizens are not just citizens but the very power that our government wields. We are not just citizens we are the soldiers who effect the policy that we wish enacted through the representative process. We are not just citizens of the US, we are the distant relative of folks from most every nation on this planet.
We are not perfect. We do not seek perfection.... WE ARE FREE! We seek freedom for us and all mankind. To achieve this we make mistakes but, we will not sit while freedom dies. Sure we befriend folks who are not the best people around but, it furthers our agenda of freedom.... we have poor... and good god we spend to help them... perhaps if we sent a bit less overseas we could help more. Our citizens suffer more and in so doing help other nations that little bit more. We have crime and punishment... goes with freedom. Goes with having wealth and goes with having illness and goes with greed. We have all these things.... But, what we have that is most important is we have each other. The fellow I agrue with today will stand with me tomorrow against any enemy any foe for the common good of Our Nation.
Enjoy what you have if not well we tried and we're not perfect. No need to thank or agree if you be free then be free.

 

[LunarRay]

UQ,


Well it's a good thing you started posting here because we were all just in this idiotic stupor thinking that the US was a perfect country. If anything important comes up, either in my personal or professional life, I'll be sure to get in contact with you immediately. You are obviously the second smartest person on this board (Moonbeam being the smartest, of course).

Thank God laserburn is here.[/quote]

Gee... now I feel bad... won't you ask Moonbeam or I to help too. We or I won't charge much..

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: konichiwa

Originally posted by: CPA

3) Kind of a potpourri of issues here. Yes, two major parties, but that is what the public lives with.

Wrong. You try starting a third party. Just look at Ralph Nader -- he had a surprisingly large base of support, yet he failed to garner more than, what, 5% of the vote? A two-party system is pretty detrimental and IMO it's due to the immense corruption and convolution of the campaign finance situation.

A 2 party system is not perfect, but I would have to say it is more stable than an n-party where drastic swings in goverment can and will occur.

 

[IamDavid]

Originally posted by: laserburn
I used to browse this forum looking for technical information, but some of the things being said here made me have to act. I have to get a load of my mind and tell you couple of things you should know about your government. I do not intend to hurt anybody?s feelings in this post, please read it carefully and without prejudice.
I live in Yugoslavia (or Serbia & Montenegro as it is called of recently) and I had what you may call a closer look at Uncle Sam?s actions and motives. There are some things you should know:
USA is not the most democratic country in the world!
1. You do not have what is usually called ?social justice?. Government does not care about individuals. You do not have health insurances provided by the government, nor any serious social programs for helping less fortunate. You try finding poor people sleeping under the bridge in France or Germany!
2. As a result of that neglect USA has large crime rates. One of every 100 Americans is in jail. That is unbelievable considering USA national income!
3. You have a political system that consists of only two parties. Big shots are able to grease both of those. Ask yourself how come Microsoft wasn?t punished after all those things it did. America is run by big businesses.
4. Uncle Sam has aggressive and short-sited foreign policy. USA supported numerous dictators in the past that did terrible things to their own people. USA government didn?t care, as long as they were fighting communism. There are many examples: Chile, Argentina, South Africa, Panama, Nicaragua? Whenever those dictators asked USA for a loan, it was granted. Today those countries are among poorest in the world and US has no intentions of writing off their debt. US armed Iraq to fight Iran and ten years after those same weapons were turned against US. Same thing happened in Afghanistan. Here is an example closer to my home: in 1999 US launched its Kosovo campaign, supposing to help repressed Albanians in Kosovo. They coordinated their air strikes with ground attacks of so called Albanian Liberation Army. Today you?ll find Albanian Liberation Army on the list of terrorist organizations! Leaders of ALA stand trial today for their war crimes before human rights tribunal, but I don?t see any equally guilty American generals there.
And I fear the worst is yet to come. When our former dictator Slobodan Milosevic came to power, he used the same rhetoric that Bush is using today (blaming other countries for helping our enemies, accusing free thinkers for lack of patriotism and treason?). I was only a child than but I still remember clearly. He will need more war to expand his authority. You must protest against any further military interventions! As corny as it sounds hate can not be stopped by hate, but only by love. War will only cause even more hate for the USA and even more acts of terrorism.
Please, give me your comments and questions. I will be happy to answer them.

First off, welcome to the forums.

Second, why does everyone equate what we, the US, did in the past to our current foreign policy? It changes every four years and our current policy is infinitely different from that of 3 years ago. If Bush had his way we would no longer support ANY dictators or tyrants. He doesn't even support our very recent allies Saudi Arabia. I know he may say he does but we are pulling completely out of SA and then we will sit back and watch it fall. Knowing we will be able to get our oil from Iraq, Russia and other places.

Third, Our government is what "we" make it. It changes just like our foreign policy and is sometimes outdated but we do try our best to keep up to date with the times.. It may seem like a harsh system to someone looking in but it has worked wonderfully. Look where it got us. #1 in everything.

Forth, Even with all of our so called flaws most people would do anything to live here. European countries are stagnant in population yet America is still booming. Just the way it should be.

And lastly, We saved your A** and just about everyone else's at one time or another throughout our history. You all where killing each other like animals until Clinton used our military to settle you down. Your old country used to be one of the great countries of the world but now your nothing but a struggling third world country being supervised by the UN like some elementary school kids who can't get along..

Oh, and about MS. Its called capitalism. MS has violated the laws many times and been punished. If they continue to do so they will be punished more. What do you think we should have done? Taken Bill Gates out and shot him? Sorry, we live in a civilized country.

 

[IamDavid]

dp

 

[laserburn]

To CPA: I don't feel it's the way it should be. I know it burdens the economy but tomorrow it may happen that you need expensive medical treatment and end up on the street. People tend to agree with things as they are. I watched some Arabian girls argue that women should not drive because it is illegal in their country.
To Corn: As much as I agree with you, it is not OK to tell anyone to shut up. Democracy and all...
To HJD1: Those are your views and I respect them. But I am afraid that your country is not doing the right thing for its citizens or for the rest of mankind. True patriot will not seek apologies for actions of his government, but try to make his country even better.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: laserburn
To CPA: I don't feel it's the way it should be. I know it burdens the economy but tomorrow it may happen that you need expensive medical treatment and end up on the street. People tend to agree with things as they are. I watched some Arabian girls argue that women should not drive because it is illegal in their country.
To Corn: As much as I agree with you, it is not OK to tell anyone to shut up. Democracy and all...
To HJD1: Those are your views and I respect them. But I am afraid that your country is not doing the right thing for its citizens or for the rest of mankind. True patriot will not seek apologies for actions of his government, but try to make his country even better.

HJD1 responds,
If you garner anything from the infighting amonst the members herein it ought to be folks trying to sway the thinking of some or all who are here. Each post I read allows me to see another voice with another view. Or many voices with the same view.. This gets translated into votes during the election process. This is how it is done. This is what changes policy... A change in the elected. Protest is another. When in office, if the current policy is material and not to our liking we will let the elected officials know. This too is FREEDOM. I do not apologize to any one for any action regarding the subject matter addressed. I simply say I tried. If that is not good enough.... I tried.

 

[UltraQuiet]

Originally posted by: laserburn
This is serious stuff.
Ultra quiet, is that the most constructive remark you can give?

No it's not but it is the standard blurb I give to pretentious 12 year olds who start off their post with "tell you couple of things you should know about your government". I need a lesson about the US from you like I need a lesson in reality from Moonbeam.

 

[tcsenter]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: konichiwa

Originally posted by: CPA

3) Kind of a potpourri of issues here. Yes, two major parties, but that is what the public lives with.

Wrong. You try starting a third party. Just look at Ralph Nader -- he had a surprisingly large base of support, yet he failed to garner more than, what, 5% of the vote? A two-party system is pretty detrimental and IMO it's due to the immense corruption and convolution of the campaign finance situation.

A 2 party system is not perfect, but I would have to say it is more stable than an n-party where drastic swings in goverment can and will occur.

Not to mention that the candidate for whom a clear majority did not vote can be elected. Three party system:

Candidate A: 31%
Candidate B: 33%
Candidate C: 36%

Candidate C wins, despite the fact that 64% of the country voted for someone else other than Candidate C = no political mandate. If you think a simple majority, 50% + one vote, is a tough situation for a political mandate, think of how it would be when the winning candidate only got 36% of the vote. It permits candidates to cater to a small but well-organized minority and be elected. This was in no small part what the founders were trying to prevent by devising the electoral college.

As far as our Yugoslavian friend's take on our country, I wouldn't have expected anything less from him. Same old, tired, worn-out, discredited, antiquated, 19th century, bankrupt socialist European thinking.

Yawn...

 

[tcsenter]

As far as our Yugoslavian friend's take on our country, I wouldn't have expected anything less from him. Same old, tired, worn-out, discredited, antiquated, 19th century, bankrupt socialist European thinking.

Not to mention, factually incorrect on several accounts. A representative example being:

"US armed Iraq to fight Iran and ten years after those same weapons were turned against US. Same thing happened in Afghanistan."

lol!

Iraq and Afghanistan were armed alright, but you might want to check around and see whether the US manufactures American hardware or Soviet hardware. (hint: The AK-47, the SCUD, T-59 and T-69 tanks, and the MIG are not American hardware. Where did they get it?).

Iraq received more weapons transfers from Yugoslavia than the US.

 

[IamDavid]

Iraq received more weapons transfers from Yugoslavia than the US.

And to this day Yugoslavia is STILL one of the worlds largest arms dealers.. I just watched that on 60 Minutes a while back. Not sure how accurate it was but it looked legit.

 

[jackschmittusa]

laserburn

Welcome to the forums. Whether I agree with any of your points is irrelevent because it is always interesting to see a viewpoint that exists beyond my own experience. You may have to develop a thicker skin to post here, but feel free to contribute as you desire. I myself have many very strong opinions on diverse subjects. I do feel that they are reasoned opinions though and not only like to present my reasoning to others, but welcome the presentation of opposing views based facts and reasoning. I always like to think that I am right but if anyone can show me new things to consider that convince me I was wrong, I will change my opinion. Sometimes we can't see the forrest for the trees and it does help to consider an outside perspective. I do agree that many of your observations have merit.

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: tcsenter

Candidate A: 31%
Candidate B: 33%
Candidate C: 36%

Candidate C wins, despite the fact that 64% of the country voted for someone else other than Candidate C = no political mandate. If you think a simple majority, 50% + one vote, is a tough situation for a political mandate, think of how it would be when the winning candidate only got 36% of the vote. It permits candidates to cater to a small but well-organized minority and be elected. This was in no small part what the founders were trying to prevent by devising the electoral college.

This can be solved simply by adopting a Proportional Represnetaion system. In order to get 50% or more of votes in parliament, Party C would have to build a coalition with A or B, in which case close to 70% of the people who voted will have a representative in the ruling coalition.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. Having a multiparty PR system is much more democratic than the FPTP system that is used in Canada and the US.

Quebec will adopt a PR system before their next election and I hope Canada can do the same within a decade.

 

[jjones]

I live in Yugoslavia (or Serbia & Montenegro as it is called of recently) and I had what you may call a closer look at Uncle Sam?s actions and motives.

Why tell us this and then go on to recite typical mindless eurotrash thought on things you know absolutely nothing about. How about giving us actual details surrounding your closer look at Uncle Sam's actions and motives as relates to something you do know about? How did this closer look take place in the former Yugoslavia for you? What real life stories can you relate that are relevent? I'd be honestly interested to know, but I have no interest in this tired old diatribe from the euros.

 

[Zebo]

Hehe Look at the anger in this thread "eurotrash" etc, funny to see people looking in the mirror don't like what they see and go on to attack the messeger. You must understand we are under the gun of compitition, laserburn, afraid of losing our jobs without no support system in place, being a loser because we don't drive an H2 we are conditioned to support our greed, or have no choice in the matter. We must be nice to those capitalists you decry or they will simply take thier monopoly money someplace else. How dare you to challege this. Americans are winners not losers. So Fusk you. It's mine mine mine.

Welcome

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak

Originally posted by: tcsenter

Candidate A: 31%
Candidate B: 33%
Candidate C: 36%

Candidate C wins, despite the fact that 64% of the country voted for someone else other than Candidate C = no political mandate. If you think a simple majority, 50% + one vote, is a tough situation for a political mandate, think of how it would be when the winning candidate only got 36% of the vote. It permits candidates to cater to a small but well-organized minority and be elected. This was in no small part what the founders were trying to prevent by devising the electoral college.

This can be solved simply by adopting a Proportional Represnetaion system. In order to get 50% or more of votes in parliament, Party C would have to build a coalition with A or B, in which case close to 70% of the people who voted will have a representative in the ruling coalition.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. Having a multiparty PR system is much more democratic than the FPTP system that is used in Canada and the US.

Quebec will adopt a PR system before their next election and I hope Canada can do the same within a decade.

A multiparty system still gives control to a minority. I will take a 2 party system which forces partys to change over time(stability) over a multiparty system which can cause drastic change overnight(chaos).