Article: Why the New Camaro will Fail

MasterAndCommander

Diamond Member
Feb 1, 2004
3,656
0
71
Why the New Camaro Will Fail
By Eric Peters
Published 6/20/2006 12:07:16 AM

Watching Ford bathe in the glory of its resurgent, retro-style Mustang has surely been agonizing for General Motors -- as well as deja vu all over again.

Back in 1964, when the first Mustang appeared, GM also had to stand there empty handed, with nothing to offer customers but fumbling excuses -- and promises that something was in the works. Three years later, in 1967, the first Camaro finally appeared. It was a good-looking car and did well. But the Mustang had a critical three-year head start. Camaro was caught playing catch-up. It had some good years -- especially in the mid-late 1970s and through the 1980s, when Tuned Port Injection IROC-Zs were as common as Ocean Pacific shorts and boom boxes as street performers -- but faltered badly in the 1990s after a not-so-hot restyle.

Sales drooped to unsustainable levels within a few years and GM eventually cancelled the Camaro (and its sheetmetal sister, the Pontiac Firebird) after the 2002 model year.

Now GM is frantically rushing an all-new Camaro to market, perhaps as soon as 2007. The news has been accompanied by great fanfare and hagiographical commentary in the motor press -- the same way news that Pontiac would be bringing back the GTO ginned up much tub-thumping and happy scribbling back in 2003. (Much of this rah-rahing issued from the pens and laptops of over-40 guys who could remember the good old days when obstreperous V-8 muscle cars prowled the streets -- and pined for their youthful days-gone-by returning.)

But the revived GTO died quickly and quietly -- despite heroic horsepower numbers and better performance than any classic-era GTO ever delivered. Some of us saw it coming from the get-go.

The new Camaro will probably die on the vine for the same reasons -- and a couple of new ones, too.

And again, it's not all that hard to understand why. Or to see the iceberg dead ahead.

Unlike the Mustang -- which has always managed to appeal to a broad base of buyers ranging from young women to old men and everyone in between -- the Camaro is and always has been a strutting muscle machine. A car for drive-throughs, Friday night cruising, and teenage boys.

That works fine when it's 1969 -- and young, single guys can still afford to buy (and insure) such a car. It doesn't work so well in today's hamstrung, hyper-regulated and cost-inflated world. Part of what killed the latter-day GTO was its $30k price point. The young (under 30) guys who might want such a car couldn't afford it -- and the older guys who could had grown up. They wanted something less goofy. So did their wives. The same problem will surely beset the coming Camaro -- unless GM, by some miracle of Enron-esque accounting, figures out a way to sell the thing for less than $25,000.

And that still leaves the insurance issue. (Will GM offer to cover the nut?) And the reality that the market slice for cars of this type has become narrower than Paris Hilton's waistline. Ford has already vacuumed up a goodly chunk of the prospective buyers. Import sport compacts will prove stiff competition for the remainder. How many new Camaros must GM sell to make the project economically viable? And how hard will that be given the late start, limited buyer pool -- and the very real danger of $3 per gallon (or more) fuel? A 15 mpg V-8 muscle car in a world of $70 fill-ups is apt to be about as popular as Hummers and Navigators and Excursions -- sheetmetal Brontosauri that face extinction (or at least, massive discounting just to get them off dealers' lots).

These are daunting challenges.

But the thing that will drive a stake through the new Camaro's hood, deep into its small-block heart, is the polarizing, hyper-macho cod piece styling. If the production car ends up looking like the show car that's been in every buff magazine and all over the news, it will be the belly flop heard 'round the world.

The enduring genius of Ford's Mustang is that it transcends testosterone -- and the muscle car era. Fitted with a hi-po engine and stripes, it's a car that guys absolutely love. But it doesn't alienate women -- and women are half the market, don't forget (and most guys have a woman in their lives who they'd prefer not to annoy with their choice of car). The previous generation (1994-2002) Camaro was an "in your face" kind of car -- and so is this new one. You either love it -- or you hate it. And the question is, can GM afford such a confrontational machine with inherently limited appeal -- one that's already hobbled by being late to the game, fighting for a relatively small subset of prospective buyers and which will likely arrive just in time for the next ugly uptick in gas prices?

The smart money (or mine, at least) says don't bet the farm on it.

It's 2007 -- not 1967.

Like a botox'd, aerobicized, fish-netted Cher crooning on the mothballed battleship Iowa, you can sing longingly about turning back time all you like. Actually doing it, of course, is a tougher thing to engineer.

Eric Peters is an automotive columnist and author of Automotive Atrocities: Cars We Love to Hate (MBI)
 

Stumps

Diamond Member
Jun 18, 2001
7,125
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0
ummm this might be a silly question but as an aussie we don't get to many yank cars out our way.

Why did the Camaro and Firebird fail during the 90's? I always thought they were nice looking cars(especially the firebird) I must admit that while I'm a huge ford fan(Long live the mighty Falcon...may you continue to outsell the competition) I would have bought either of the GM cars.
 

Scouzer

Lifer
Jun 3, 2001
10,358
5
0
Originally posted by: Stumps
ummm this might be a silly question but as an aussie we don't get to many yank cars out our way.

Why did the Camaro and Firebird fail during the 90's? I always thought they were nice looking cars(especially the firebird) I must admit that while I'm a huge ford fan(Long live the mighty Falcon...may you continue to outsell the competition) I would have bought either of the GM cars.

Too crude.
 

Pocatello

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 1999
9,754
2
76
Originally posted by: Scouzer
Originally posted by: Stumps
ummm this might be a silly question but as an aussie we don't get to many yank cars out our way.

Why did the Camaro and Firebird fail during the 90's? I always thought they were nice looking cars(especially the firebird) I must admit that while I'm a huge ford fan(Long live the mighty Falcon...may you continue to outsell the competition) I would have bought either of the GM cars.

Too crude.

The current Mustang is crude too, hasn't it always been? But it's selling well. The GTO didn't sell well because it didn't have the look of a muscle car and it was too expensive. I do think that he has a point about the number of muscle car buyers are small. Muscle cars with big V-8 are for enthusiasts and GM should recognize that, just like convertibles like the Miata or the Solstice. The Camaro can be successful as long as GM can keep people interested, keep the price down, and don't overproduce, which leads to the perception that the car is no longer desirable and has to be sold with 0% interest or other gimmicks.
 

0

Golden Member
Jul 22, 2003
1,270
0
0
The GTO looked like a G6. That's why it failed. There was no link back to its roots in terms of looks. This article is dead wrong, the Camaro won't make that same mistake.
 

Pocatello

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 1999
9,754
2
76
Originally posted by: 0
The GTO looked like a G6. That's why it failed. There was no link back to its roots in terms of looks. This article is dead wrong, the Camaro won't make that same mistake.

I thought it looks like a bigger Cavalier from the side.
 

iamwiz82

Lifer
Jan 10, 2001
30,772
13
81
Originally posted by: 0
The GTO looked like a G6. That's why it failed. There was no link back to its roots in terms of looks. This article is dead wrong, the Camaro won't make that same mistake.

I agree with you on the GTO thing. I said it in another thread and "put in my place" with comments that it would have been a success with another name. I seriously doubt that.
 

lokiju

Lifer
May 29, 2003
18,526
5
0
Meh, if it's a good car and GM doesn't water it down like they ALWAYS do then I see no reason why it couldn't keep pace with the Mustang sales.

 

fbrdphreak

Lifer
Apr 17, 2004
17,555
1
0
GM needs to offer a lower end trim level with something like the 5.3L truck engine & a 5-speed manual, an SS or Z-28 version with the 6.0L & a 6-speed, a decent interior, and pricing to match (and then exceed with the SS/Z-28) the Mustang.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
meh, the camaro was always gay. trying too hard to be macho...just tacky and low class.
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
76
I agree with lots of the author's points, the most salient being price. GM has a tendency to design cars for an attractive price goal, then someone down the line decides the car is so great they can incrementally increase the price.

Take the under $20k Pontiac Solstice and Saturn Skye. If they actually sold them for that, they would have been a big seller. But they aren't worth 25-30k.

Same thing with the GTO. It would have sold for $25k, but they try to sell them way above 30k. Almost 35k.


I bet the buzz about the Camaro will be a high performance version for what a Mustang GT starts at, around 27k. But they won't actually sell them for less than 32k.


 

KentState

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2001
8,397
393
126
Originally posted by: 0
The GTO looked like a G6. That's why it failed. There was no link back to its roots in terms of looks. This article is dead wrong, the Camaro won't make that same mistake.

How did the GTO "fail?" There was a limited number of cars that GM was allowed to import into the US each year according to an agreement with the UAW. I think you where expecting it to sell at a rate that was not even possible. The entire goal of bringing the car to the US was to reintroduce the GTO name. GM knew all along that they would introduce a new GTO around '09 that would have roots back to the original.
 

PricklyPete

Lifer
Sep 17, 2002
14,582
162
106
I know I'm interested in the new Camaro. It has a good chance of being my next vehicle...and my fiance loves it as well.

I have to agree that the author does have some good points. Lets hope he is proved wrong.
 

GuitarDaddy

Lifer
Nov 9, 2004
11,465
1
0
Originally posted by: fbrdphreak
GM needs to offer a lower end trim level with something like the 5.3L truck engine & a 5-speed manual, an SS or Z-28 version with the 6.0L & a 6-speed, a decent interior, and pricing to match (and then exceed with the SS/Z-28) the Mustang.


I would like to see three trim levels

Base w/V6 to compete with the base V6 mustang
Then the two that you list, 1 to compete with the GT, and the top of the line to compete with the Cobra/500
 

CVSiN

Diamond Member
Jul 19, 2004
9,289
1
0
Originally posted by: Pocatello
Originally posted by: Scouzer
Originally posted by: Stumps
ummm this might be a silly question but as an aussie we don't get to many yank cars out our way.

Why did the Camaro and Firebird fail during the 90's? I always thought they were nice looking cars(especially the firebird) I must admit that while I'm a huge ford fan(Long live the mighty Falcon...may you continue to outsell the competition) I would have bought either of the GM cars.

Too crude.

The current Mustang is crude too, hasn't it always been? But it's selling well. The GTO didn't sell well because it didn't have the look of a muscle car and it was too expensive. I do think that he has a point about the number of muscle car buyers are small. Muscle cars with big V-8 are for enthusiasts and GM should recognize that, just like convertibles like the Miata or the Solstice. The Camaro can be successful as long as GM can keep people interested, keep the price down, and don't overproduce, which leads to the perception that the car is no longer desirable and has to be sold with 0% interest or other gimmicks.

The current Mustang is not crude at all. A very refined very comfortaable very FAST low dollar sports car... that the aftermarket has already embraced yet again.. as well as Fords performance divsion as well...
300HP is just a base line number before all the CHEAP things that even girl mustang owners do to thier cars.. 500 streetable Horsepower for only another 3-5k (whipplecharger and exhaust) is nothing to balk at..
Chevy has NEVER gotten this right... The Camaro has never dominated the stangs.. the firebird came close with the WS6 but in the end it was too pricy and limited aftermarket for the beast that make it much less appealing than a stang..

GMs problem overall is they want to keep the high level performance in the Corvette..
they dont want to make a "pony" car that can embarrass thier showstopper for a fraction of the cost.

Ford on the other hand other than the Limited production Ford GT the mustang is thier showpony..and they treat it as such... high performance availible though them or thier aftermarket suppliers.. at a fraction of the cost of a GM/Dodge car in the same class.

Ford has stumbled a few times along the way with the mustang but right now they riding a home run...
 

AdamK47

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,782
3,606
136
Originally posted by: CVSiN
Originally posted by: Pocatello
Originally posted by: Scouzer
Originally posted by: Stumps
ummm this might be a silly question but as an aussie we don't get to many yank cars out our way.

Why did the Camaro and Firebird fail during the 90's? I always thought they were nice looking cars(especially the firebird) I must admit that while I'm a huge ford fan(Long live the mighty Falcon...may you continue to outsell the competition) I would have bought either of the GM cars.

Too crude.

The current Mustang is crude too, hasn't it always been? But it's selling well. The GTO didn't sell well because it didn't have the look of a muscle car and it was too expensive. I do think that he has a point about the number of muscle car buyers are small. Muscle cars with big V-8 are for enthusiasts and GM should recognize that, just like convertibles like the Miata or the Solstice. The Camaro can be successful as long as GM can keep people interested, keep the price down, and don't overproduce, which leads to the perception that the car is no longer desirable and has to be sold with 0% interest or other gimmicks.

The current Mustang is not crude at all. A very refined very comfortaable very FAST low dollar sports car... that the aftermarket has already embraced yet again.. as well as Fords performance divsion as well...
300HP is just a base line number before all the CHEAP things that even girl mustang owners do to thier cars.. 500 streetable Horsepower for only another 3-5k (whipplecharger and exhaust) is nothing to balk at..
Chevy has NEVER gotten this right... The Camaro has never dominated the stangs.. the firebird came close with the WS6 but in the end it was too pricy and limited aftermarket for the beast that make it much less appealing than a stang..

GMs problem overall is they want to keep the high level performance in the Corvette..
they dont want to make a "pony" car that can embarrass thier showstopper for a fraction of the cost.

Ford on the other hand other than the Limited production Ford GT the mustang is thier showpony..and they treat it as such... high performance availible though them or thier aftermarket suppliers.. at a fraction of the cost of a GM/Dodge car in the same class.

Ford has stumbled a few times along the way with the mustang but right now they riding a home run...

Never dominated the Stangs... LO friggen L. You better wipe your mouth. You have a little bit of Ford on your lip.
 

AdamK47

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,782
3,606
136
Originally posted by: MasterAndCommander
Maybe he meant it in terms of overall sales :confused:

That would still be incorrect. They out sold the Mustangs in the late 70s (for some odd reason).
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
52,615
46,282
136
Originally posted by: CVSiN
GMs problem overall is they want to keep the high level performance in the Corvette..
they dont want to make a "pony" car that can embarrass thier showstopper for a fraction of the cost.

Ford on the other hand other than the Limited production Ford GT the mustang is thier showpony..and they treat it as such... high performance availible though them or thier aftermarket suppliers.. at a fraction of the cost of a GM/Dodge car in the same class.

GM offers a lot of high performance options these days, the Cadillac V series expansion being of note lately. You should have seen the Chicago Auto show, people were mobbing the Caddy display more than the high end euro cars.

They tried with the GTO but the design was crap, while the powerplant was fine.

As far as touching Ford GT performance in a GM car, I have ony one thing to say: 2006 Corvette Z06. Also for quite a lot lower pricetag I might add.
 

DougK62

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2001
8,035
6
81
Originally posted by: CVSiN
Originally posted by: Pocatello
Originally posted by: Scouzer
Originally posted by: Stumps
ummm this might be a silly question but as an aussie we don't get to many yank cars out our way.

Why did the Camaro and Firebird fail during the 90's? I always thought they were nice looking cars(especially the firebird) I must admit that while I'm a huge ford fan(Long live the mighty Falcon...may you continue to outsell the competition) I would have bought either of the GM cars.

Too crude.

The current Mustang is crude too, hasn't it always been? But it's selling well. The GTO didn't sell well because it didn't have the look of a muscle car and it was too expensive. I do think that he has a point about the number of muscle car buyers are small. Muscle cars with big V-8 are for enthusiasts and GM should recognize that, just like convertibles like the Miata or the Solstice. The Camaro can be successful as long as GM can keep people interested, keep the price down, and don't overproduce, which leads to the perception that the car is no longer desirable and has to be sold with 0% interest or other gimmicks.

The current Mustang is not crude at all. A very refined very comfortaable very FAST low dollar sports car... that the aftermarket has already embraced yet again.. as well as Fords performance divsion as well...
300HP is just a base line number before all the CHEAP things that even girl mustang owners do to thier cars.. 500 streetable Horsepower for only another 3-5k (whipplecharger and exhaust) is nothing to balk at..
Chevy has NEVER gotten this right... The Camaro has never dominated the stangs.. the firebird came close with the WS6 but in the end it was too pricy and limited aftermarket for the beast that make it much less appealing than a stang..

GMs problem overall is they want to keep the high level performance in the Corvette..
they dont want to make a "pony" car that can embarrass thier showstopper for a fraction of the cost.

Ford on the other hand other than the Limited production Ford GT the mustang is thier showpony..and they treat it as such... high performance availible though them or thier aftermarket suppliers.. at a fraction of the cost of a GM/Dodge car in the same class.

Ford has stumbled a few times along the way with the mustang but right now they riding a home run...

hahahahahahah.

You need to reverse your statement. The F-Body has nearly ALWAYS dominated the Mustangs (in performance). The only case you could make for the Mustang is the late 80s/early 90s 5.0 Mustangs.

Supercharge a brand new 300hp Mustang and get 500hp? Big deal. You could do that with an F-Body since the late 90s.

GM's problem overall has NOTHING to do with performance. It has to do with marketing the cars to the crowd that buys the base model V6's - that's the bread and butter for car sales of ANY vehicle, and where GM crashed and burned.

Take off your fanboy blinders.

 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
52,615
46,282
136
Originally posted by: DougK62
Originally posted by: CVSiN
Originally posted by: Pocatello
Originally posted by: Scouzer
Originally posted by: Stumps
ummm this might be a silly question but as an aussie we don't get to many yank cars out our way.

Why did the Camaro and Firebird fail during the 90's? I always thought they were nice looking cars(especially the firebird) I must admit that while I'm a huge ford fan(Long live the mighty Falcon...may you continue to outsell the competition) I would have bought either of the GM cars.

Too crude.

The current Mustang is crude too, hasn't it always been? But it's selling well. The GTO didn't sell well because it didn't have the look of a muscle car and it was too expensive. I do think that he has a point about the number of muscle car buyers are small. Muscle cars with big V-8 are for enthusiasts and GM should recognize that, just like convertibles like the Miata or the Solstice. The Camaro can be successful as long as GM can keep people interested, keep the price down, and don't overproduce, which leads to the perception that the car is no longer desirable and has to be sold with 0% interest or other gimmicks.

The current Mustang is not crude at all. A very refined very comfortaable very FAST low dollar sports car... that the aftermarket has already embraced yet again.. as well as Fords performance divsion as well...
300HP is just a base line number before all the CHEAP things that even girl mustang owners do to thier cars.. 500 streetable Horsepower for only another 3-5k (whipplecharger and exhaust) is nothing to balk at..
Chevy has NEVER gotten this right... The Camaro has never dominated the stangs.. the firebird came close with the WS6 but in the end it was too pricy and limited aftermarket for the beast that make it much less appealing than a stang..

GMs problem overall is they want to keep the high level performance in the Corvette..
they dont want to make a "pony" car that can embarrass thier showstopper for a fraction of the cost.

Ford on the other hand other than the Limited production Ford GT the mustang is thier showpony..and they treat it as such... high performance availible though them or thier aftermarket suppliers.. at a fraction of the cost of a GM/Dodge car in the same class.

Ford has stumbled a few times along the way with the mustang but right now they riding a home run...

hahahahahahah.

You need to reverse your statement. The F-Body has nearly ALWAYS dominated the Mustangs (in performance). The only case you could make for the Mustang is the late 80s/early 90s 5.0 Mustangs.

Supercharge a brand new 300hp Mustang and get 500hp? Big deal. You could do that with an F-Body since the late 90s.

GM's problem overall has NOTHING to do with performance. It has to do with marketing the cars to the crowd that buys the base model V6's - that's the bread and butter for car sales of ANY vehicle, and where GM crashed and burned.

Take off your fanboy blinders.

teh winnar

Ford sold the chicks on the V6.
 

Ronstang

Lifer
Jul 8, 2000
12,493
18
81
Originally posted by: AdamK47 3DS
Never dominated the Stangs... LO friggen L. You better wipe your mouth. You have a little bit of Ford on your lip.

You missed his point and he is right. The Mustang continually outsold the combination of the Camaro and Firebird to the tune of nearly 2:1 in the last decade. The Mustang continues to exist.....the Camaro is a dream. GM's marketing department has been asleep at the wheel with it's fingers on the pulse of someone other than that of the American public for DECADES. The Camaro in later years was really only popular with the people who simply could not afford the whole package....the teen-late 20s macho crowd. The Camaro/Firebird has never been a well balanced package that appeals to a lagre crowd....especially the more mature they become.

I want the Camaro to suceed. I want GM to pull their heads out of their butts. The problem is I tend to agree with everything the author is talking about since I have been saying the exact same things for many years.

 

dug777

Lifer
Oct 13, 2004
24,778
4
0
Originally posted by: KentState
Originally posted by: 0
The GTO looked like a G6. That's why it failed. There was no link back to its roots in terms of looks. This article is dead wrong, the Camaro won't make that same mistake.

How did the GTO "fail?" There was a limited number of cars that GM was allowed to import into the US each year according to an agreement with the UAW. I think you where expecting it to sell at a rate that was not even possible. The entire goal of bringing the car to the US was to reintroduce the GTO name. GM knew all along that they would introduce a new GTO around '09 that would have roots back to the original.

Interesting if true...

I tend to agree with the comments that put iwiz back in his box in his own words, that the Monaro should never have been brought to the US as the GTO. Anywho, it clearly was never appreciated by Yanks, and that much should have been obvious if they'd done any market research, from what the rabid Monaro haters on this forum say....
 

CVSiN

Diamond Member
Jul 19, 2004
9,289
1
0
Originally posted by: AdamK47 3DS
Originally posted by: MasterAndCommander
Maybe he meant it in terms of overall sales :confused:

That would still be incorrect. They out sold the Mustangs in the late 70s (for some odd reason).

becasue Ford was riding the POS Mustang II in the late 70s.. then the figured out the Fox Body and it was all down hill from there...

as for you Chevy performance morons... Ive had ..
1 IROC Z28 (350)
1 GTA Trans AM (350)
1 Formula Firebird (350)
1 1985 Corvette (350 TPI)
on the GM side of the house..
So I'm not talking out my ass...

on the Ford Side Ive had..
1 1984 GT (5.0 302)
1 1988 GT (306 bore total 1993 cobra conversion 400hp with NOS)
1 1991 LX (5.0 302 stock)
1 1993 LX (347 Stroker 750 HP with Vortech S trim)
1 1995 GT Convertable (302 Auto Stock biscuit)

Now every single Mustang even stock beat the stuffinfs out of all the GMs I've ever had.. as well as streetraced agaisnt on the Florida/Texas street scene... for the prices involved it was cheaper and faster to throw cheap easy boltons on a 302 lightweight stang and eat larger displacement cars from Chevy and Dodge...

even my Supercharged 9 second car had less than 10k in it after the price of the car which was only 10k at the time.

Ford has outsold every year of Camaro and still exists to this day... going stronger than ever.. and no the girls arnt buying 6 cyls... they are buying GTs and showing them off proudly.

as for 500 HP bolt on sure camaros could do that too (if they started with an SS or a WS6)... but a Ford I can not only do that but at the same time stroke the motor... new cam(s) new heads underdrive pulleys new intake all for the same price the Chevy guy would spend for 1-2 componants... and be way way over 500...

K1052.. reading comprehension 4 teh lose.... read what I said again mr. tool..

Nothing .. I repeat NOTHING in Chevys inventory goes faster than the z06 and they dont plan on doing that... now Ford.. like was stated unlike Chevy.. not only builds the stang at a point thats pretty agressive these days.. but ALSO markets makes and sells Ford Racing parts for the stang as well as SVT parts at the dealers.... they encourage you to build these cars up.. and they are much easier to work on than GMs finger breakers...

GM is a 1 trick Pony... I have never been afraid to race ANY GM product in my stangs... and have won way more money than I have lost... the muscle car of choice on the street racing circuit as well as the SCCA tracks is still the stang from 5.0s to todays GTs

the WS6s and SSs have faded from view and are hardly ever seen on the streets anymore around here... and the prices have skyrocketed on ones that do go up for sale..

no thanks for 23k I'll still buy a new GT over a used WS6 or SS.. hell I'd still buy a 1987-1993 5.0 over any of those still..