[Ars] AMD sued over allegedly misleading Bulldozer core count

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AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
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3,357
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For those that talked about the Mobile "Compute" Cores,

https://www.amd.com/Documents/Compute_Cores_Whitepaper.pdf

Compute Core:
Any core capable of running at least one process in its own context and virtual memory space, independently from other cores.
and,

THE COMPUTE CORE NOMENCLATURE
Beginning in 2014, products from various semiconductor companies, particularly those that are members of the HSA Foundation, will begin introducing heterogeneous devices. To assist in evaluating these new processor solutions, AMD is adopting the Compute Core nomenclature as a designation for processors that meet the HSA specifications and as a general method of comparing these solutions. With the first generation of heterogeneous processors based on the architecture of the APU codenamed “Kaveri”, AMD will begin designating the number of compute cores in the following manner.

AMD A10-7850K APU with Radeon™ R7 graphics 12 Compute Cores (4 CPU + 8 GPU)
Also, PR material specify what "Compute" Cores are, so that people will not confuse CPU x86 cores with the rest.

kaveri_overview_large.jpg
 
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ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
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We all know why they call it compute cores. Its nothing but a PR attempt to fool people. Its legal, but that's about it.
 

TheELF

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2012
3,973
730
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Also, PR material specify what "Compute" Cores are, so that people will not confuse CPU x86 cores with the rest.

kaveri_overview_large.jpg
I am sure there is one of these posters in every shop that sells these laptops...
 

freeskier93

Senior member
Apr 17, 2015
487
19
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Here is the full text as found at The Register:
http://regmedia.co.uk/2015/11/06/amd_bulldozer_lawsuit.pdf

TL:DR

The plaintiff, Tony Dickey, was not happy with the performance of his FX-9590 and now wants to sue on the basis that "AMD’s “8-core” Bulldozer was slower than Intel’s 4-core CPU and its own 6-core CPU is that it does not have “8-cores,” but only eight module processing units with shared components."

EDIT: Should be 4 modules, not 8, but that's a direct quote from the document so I'm leaving it.

Slightly longer version:

The primary shared component in question is the FPU, while also mentioning shard cache. They show die shots of an older Phenom II core and Intel Westmere core showing how each core has it's own FPU, L1, and L2. They then show a full die shot of a Bulldozer module showing the shared FPU, shared L2, and some other shared things. Of course they don't mention that the FPU is actually 2 128-bit FMACs that can work independently or together.

Nothing is ever mentioned about the integer cores either, the way this document reads is the only calculations that ever take place are floating point. They also fail to realize cache naming is relative to the architecture, Bulldozer's shared L2 cache would be more similar to Intel's shared L3 cache and Bulldozer breaks L1 down into a couple more levels.

I believe there is slight validity and AMD should have used the "module" term more, but from a technical perspective it's obvious things were omitted to fit the agenda. I don't see any validity in this case, their primary argument of shared FPU is shaky ground at best. It's easy to look at the progression of computational processing and see the FPU isn't even a required component, even today many embedded systems don't have FPUs.

Their argument would be stronger if they focused on the shared front end components, like shared fetch/decode, but at the end of the day each module still has two independent integer cores each with their own scheduler.
 
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Dresdenboy

Golden Member
Jul 28, 2003
1,730
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citavia.blog.de
freeskier93, small correction: 4 modules, not 8.

And even the shared L1 cache + frontend are able to provide ca. 2 decoded x86 ops per cycle per core, more than 1.

It will be an interesting case.
 
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AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
14,001
3,357
136
I am sure there is one of these posters in every shop that sells these laptops...

Are there any Intel posters in every shop explaining the SMT and what is Hyperthtreading to Laptop customers ??
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
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Are there any Intel posters in every shop explaining the SMT and what is Hyperthtreading to Laptop customers ??

Hyperthreading isn't marketed as something misleading to deceive customers like the "compute core" case.
 

AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
14,001
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Hyperthreading isn't marketed as something misleading to deceive customers like the "compute core" case.

The context was that Intel presented to the media and the tech site what Hyperthreading is, how it works and perform. They dont put posters about Hyperthreading in the shops. Same for AMD Compute Cores, it has been explained to the press and on the official AMD web-site. No need to have any posters in the shops.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
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The context was that Intel presented to the media and the tech site what Hyperthreading is, how it works and perform. They dont put posters about Hyperthreading in the shops. Same for AMD Compute Cores, it has been explained to the press and on the official AMD web-site. No need to have any posters in the shops.

Nice try but no cigar.

Remember this?
hexa-1.png

2yk0rv7.jpg


6 compute cores, right? Shady business is shady business.
 

AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
14,001
3,357
136
Nice try but no cigar.

Remember this?
hexa-1.png


6 compute cores, right? Shady business is shady business.

That is HP advertising, not AMD. And yes this is not correct.

2yk0rv7.jpg


Now this is better because it explained what those "6" cores are.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
106
That is HP advertising, not AMD. And yes this is not correct.

Now this is better because it explained what those "6" cores are.

Yes, its covered up to mislead. Shady marketing.

About equal to calling my 6700K for 32 cores and then make a subnote on that it really isn't.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
106
Are you sure of that ???? :sneaky:

When the package says dual core or quad core it is so. Its not a dual core attempted to be sold as a quad or a quad core attempted to be sold as a octo core.

You messed up big time trying to pull hyperthreading into this to change the goalpost.
 

AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
14,001
3,357
136
Yes, its covered up to mislead. Shady marketing.

And again this was an HP advertisement, it got nothing to do with AMD.

AMD is talking about "Compute" cores, not Hex-cores. Understand the difference.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
106
And again this was an HP advertisement, it got nothing to do with AMD.

AMD is talking about "Compute" cores, not Hex-cores. Understand the difference.

You know as well as everyone else its based on AMDs compute core terms. AMD only made up compute cores to be able to show more cores than there is on a sales poster.

And when the AMD package says 12 COMPUTE cores, it has 12 COMPUTE cores.

Yes, trying to mislead the average customer. Do you do the same in your AMD shop?
 

AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
14,001
3,357
136
You know as well as everyone else its based on AMDs compute core terms. AMD only made up compute cores to be able to show more cores than there is on a sales poster.

I suggest you read this again,

https://www.amd.com/Documents/Compute_Cores_Whitepaper.pdf

Yes, trying to mislead the average customer. Do you do the same in your AMD shop?

What i do is trying to educate people that Core i7 is not always 4C 8T :sneaky:

Or that Celeron and Pentium are not always what they think they are but could also be ATOMs :sneaky:
 

Maxima1

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
3,515
756
146
An i3 is sold as a dual core. And i7 is sold as a quad etc.

Well, not the same for each category, but they love the association the marketing brings. Mobile ULV i7 isn't quad, and I know that has fooled people.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
106
I suggest you read this again,

https://www.amd.com/Documents/Compute_Cores_Whitepaper.pdf



What i do is trying to educate people that Core i7 is not always 4C 8T :sneaky:

Or that Celeron and Pentium are not always what they think they are but could also be ATOMs :sneaky:

Right, so as expected you defend it also in your shop. Not easy when you are both financially and emotional invested in AMD.

And Athlons isn't always what they think either. But could be Kabini chips. Same goes for Ax vs Ax numbering.

Yet again the goalpost change backfires on you.
 
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freeskier93

Senior member
Apr 17, 2015
487
19
81
freeskier93, small correction: 4 modules, not 8.

And even the shared L1 cache + frontend are able to provide ca. 2 decoded x86 ops per cycle per core, more than 1.

It will be an interesting case.

That's a direct quote from the document, for such a (relatively) short it is it wasn't proof read very well. There are a number of mistakes.
 

AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
14,001
3,357
136
Not easy when you are both financially and emotional invested in AMD.

Funny because im way more emotional and especially financially invested in Intel since my bulk revenue is coming from Intel based hardware. But i see you are making a good effort to make it personal again, sorry to disappoint you ;)

And Athlons isn't always what they think either. But could be Kabini chips.

Yeap, that also need an explanation to the customer.