Army says no to more tanks, but Congress insists

[Nintendesert]

It sounds like Congress is more making a long term strategic decision to maintain manufacturing capability than dictating to the military what equip they'll fight with. I have no problem with that, that's within their role. (Of course another part seems to be economic, which is also within their role. Now, whether it's a smart use of resources or not is another discussion.)

Fern

I was watching a documentary on British submarine building and they were going through something similar. They had shut down the yards and lost their trained workers. You can't have electricians doing the work when things started up again because they didn't have the journeymen to teach the apprentices. Needless to say the first submarine produced was years late and grossly over budget. It takes a lot of time and money to retool and retrain, perhaps long term it is smarter and even cheaper to not stop this manufacturing and upgrading of M1A1s to M1A2s. That however isn't really the argument these Congresstards are focusing on and are instead playing the whole DEFEND THE HOMELAND! Not buying that shit since there's nobody on this planet that can fight 2400 M1A2 tanks. I'd even wonder if we had enough personnel to even crew all those tanks at one time.

Maybe I missed it in the articles I've read on this one, but if it's economically cheaper to not stop the upgrading process then I'd be all for it. Just sell me on something other than we need it to defend the homeland.

 

[Exterous]

Buying tanks from China, why not?

If only we had some close allies we could buy top quality tanks from if we had too...

It sounds like Congress is more making a long term strategic decision to maintain manufacturing capability than dictating to the military what equip they'll fight with. I have no problem with that, that's within their role. (Of course another part seems to be economic, which is also within their role. Now, whether it's a smart use of resources or not is another discussion.)

Fern

I don't know if I trust Congress' ability to make long term strategic military decisions more than the military's ability to make long term strategic military decisions - esp given their recent track record.

In this blooming age of drones I wonder if keeping the big hulking Abrams in production is a bit like producing battleships after the advent of carrier warfare. Don't get me wrong - I think the thing is effing awesome but we have a ton of spares sitting around

 

[JTsyo]

I was watching a documentary on British submarine building and they were going through something similar. They had shut down the yards and lost their trained workers. You can't have electricians doing the work when things started up again because they didn't have the journeymen to teach the apprentices. Needless to say the first submarine produced was years late and grossly over budget. It takes a lot of time and money to retool and retrain, perhaps long term it is smarter and even cheaper to not stop this manufacturing and upgrading of M1A1s to M1A2s. That however isn't really the argument these Congresstards are focusing on and are instead playing the whole DEFEND THE HOMELAND! Not buying that shit since there's nobody on this planet that can fight 2400 M1A2 tanks. I'd even wonder if we had enough personnel to even crew all those tanks at one time.

Maybe I missed it in the articles I've read on this one, but if it's economically cheaper to not stop the upgrading process then I'd be all for it. Just sell me on something other than we need it to defend the homeland.

I'm calling to call BS on this for the tank. Does the Abrams really use manufacturing techniques that isn't used in the rest of the industry? You can't put the TDP out there and have someone make one in 5 years? I guess I could see an issue with the armor, that's pretty specialized, not many other places you need MBT type armor.

 

[Brovane]

Well in a pinch we could always buy Leopard 2 tanks from the Germans.

 

[Nintendesert]

I'm calling to call BS on this for the tank. Does the Abrams really use manufacturing techniques that isn't used in the rest of the industry? You can't put the TDP out there and have someone make one in 5 years? I guess I could see an issue with the armor, that's pretty specialized, not many other places you need MBT type armor.

Not sure, I'm not a tank builder. There's a lot of things historically that we can't build anymore once the production line got shut down. A lot of NASA rockets etc. due to poor documentation.

I could see some of the electronics being a problem if the tank production gets shut down and the suppliers stop manufacturing those components or go out of business future production might be hampered because you'd need to get multiple production lines back in business before you could turn out a single upgraded tank.

That is the only line of argument that I could entertain as a reason to keep the upgrading process going.

 

[SagaLore]

Ed Verhoff, the company's president, said his sales have dropped from $20 million to $7 million over the past two years. He's also had to lay off about 25 skilled employees and he expects to be issuing more pink slips in the future.

WTF? He lost 13mil in sales, and that cuts 25 employees? That is 680k per employee. I agree with the Army, shut the whole thing down. It would be cheaper to give the employees early retirement courtesy of the tax payer than it would be to give them employment courtesy of the tax payer.

 

[Ldir]

The problem with politicians and bureaucrats is that they lack imagination. What else could tank makers manufacture that would benefit us all? Why can't we buy that instead?

Maybe they can make police tanks instead of army tanks. That seems to be a hot growth area.

 

[BurnItDwn]

Maybe they can make police tanks instead of army tanks. That seems to be a hot growth area.

I bet if they sold the tank body without the gun, and they gave it leather, they could sell it as an expensive momvan, sort of like the Hummer.

 

[Ldir]

I bet if they sold the tank body without the gun, and they gave it leather, they could sell it as an expensive momvan, sort of like the Hummer.

That is a great idea. It would have to include a rear backup camera though. Pay extra for the Deluxe NRA Option Package and they'll include the guns too.

 

[Fern]

WTF? He lost 13mil in sales, and that cuts 25 employees? That is 680k per employee. I agree with the Army, shut the whole thing down. It would be cheaper to give the employees early retirement courtesy of the tax payer than it would be to give them employment courtesy of the tax payer.

He said "skilled employees". Not exactly sure what that means but it is possible other employees were laid off that don't fall under his definition of skilled employees.

Fern

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

With pudgy consumers like yourself, why would they learn to make anything else?

Like 95% of all americans that aren't Chinese you mean?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

He said "skilled employees". Not exactly sure what that means but it is possible other employees were laid off that don't fall under his definition of skilled employees.

Fern

I really hate that term...

What company hires "non skilled" people? They are all fucking skilled at what they do.

It's an American term though, a class term to divide them and us, you may never have had a king but your middle class think they are fucking nobles.

 

[chucky2]

I really hate that term...

What company hires "non skilled" people? They are all fucking skilled at what they do.

It's an American term though, a class term to divide them and us, you may never have had a king but your middle class think they are fucking nobles.

Non-skilled people are the people you can replace easily. Such as, someone holding a label gun and labeling tires at the local Ford plant. Unless you consider performing a mind numbingly boring and unskilled job skilled, this is why we call it unskilled. It's not class warfare term, it's just an accurate term.

I haven't met too many middle class people that think they're nobles. Odd you'd think that...

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Non-skilled people are the people you can replace easily. Such as, someone holding a label gun and labeling tires at the local Ford plant. Unless you consider performing a mind numbingly boring and unskilled job skilled, this is why we call it unskilled. It's not class warfare term, it's just an accurate term.

I haven't met too many middle class people that think they're nobles. Odd you'd think that...

I consider every worker part of the production process, so does every single currently successful company, none of which are American companies.

Every single American middle class dipsheit i've ver met thinks he is actually a noble sitting on a pedestal above the blue collar workers.

You don't have to convince me, your argument how the non-skilled are replaceable is quite enough, do you know three companies that didn't buy into your sheit and haven't had a bad diay in the financial crisis?

Easily replacable are like what, programmers are a dime a dozen, CEO's are mostly unemployed, skilled workers actually willing to work 8 hours a day every day are in demand though.

 

[chucky2]

I consider every worker part of the production process, so does every single currently successful company, none of which are American companies.

Every single American middle class dipsheit i've ver met thinks he is actually a noble sitting on a pedestal above the blue collar workers.

You don't have to convince me, your argument how the non-skilled are replaceable is quite enough, do you know three companies that didn't buy into your sheit and haven't had a bad diay in the financial crisis?

Easily replacable are like what, programmers are a dime a dozen, CEO's are mostly unemployed, skilled workers actually willing to work 8 hours a day every day are in demand though.

Rage on bro, rage on... :thumbsup:

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Rage on bro, rage on... :thumbsup:

Why do people think i'm an agitator when i am just stating the obvious?

Take a look at the most successful nations in this crisis, Germany, Norway and others, what do they have in common? Yeah, you don't need to tell me i'm right, i know i am, i always am.

 

[EagleKeeper]

WTF? He lost 13mil in sales, and that cuts 25 employees? That is 680k per employee. I agree with the Army, shut the whole thing down. It would be cheaper to give the employees early retirement courtesy of the tax payer than it would be to give them employment courtesy of the tax payer.

You do not know what the base cost is of the materials that go into the sale.

He may need $500K of materials per employee.
You then have the overhead of the facility which is built into the cost structure.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Army did not say 'no tanks'.

Like most foodstamp recipients, they said 'it would be better if you just gave me the cash'.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

You do not know what the base cost is of the materials that go into the sale.

He may need $500K of materials per employee.
You then have the overhead of the facility which is built into the cost structure.

If i ever wondered about the cost of an area situated i'd ask you.

Still, this sheit is just cockapoppy and you know that.

The truth is you boys would make better use of it, we can't fucking go there without you and no, we're never in need of tanks, we're not fighting a WWII land invasion scenario and we don't need MORE crap that will rust shut before we can even have people to train on it.

You fucking know this, come on...

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Army did not say 'no tanks'.

Like most foodstamp recipients, they said 'it would be better if you just gave me the cash'.

Not really because this sheit is earmarked money that lobbyists have been licking balls to get money for.

It's the epitome of the US defence forces, no money where needed and all money where the lobbyists convince the politicians to spend it.

It's ridiculous, if England worked like that we'd be out of NATO and have 92000 tanks and no fleet or airforce.

 

[chucky2]

Why do people think i'm an agitator when i am just stating the obvious?

Take a look at the most successful nations in this crisis, Germany, Norway and others, what do they have in common? Yeah, you don't need to tell me i'm right, i know i am, i always am.

The usual cast of funny posters has been absent for a while...way to pick up the slack! :thumbsup:

 

[Nebor]

Maybe they can make police tanks instead of army tanks. That seems to be a hot growth area.