Army says no to more tanks, but Congress insists

[dmcowen674]

4-29-2013

http://news.yahoo.com/army-says-no-more-tanks-115434897.html

Army says no to more tanks, but Congress insists



Lawmakers from both parties have devoted nearly half a billion dollars in taxpayer money over the past two years to build improved versions of the 70-ton Abrams.


But senior Army officials have said repeatedly, "No thanks."




"If we had our choice, we would use that money in a different way," Gen. Ray Odierno, the Army's chief of staff, told The Associated Press this past week.


Why are the tank dollars still flowing? Politics.


Keeping the Abrams production line rolling protects businesses and good paying jobs in congressional districts where the tank's many suppliers are located.



If there's a home of the Abrams, it's politically important Ohio. The nation's only tank plant is in Lima. So it's no coincidence that the champions for more tanks are Rep. Jim Jordan and Sen. Rob Portman, two of Capitol's Hill most prominent deficit hawks, as well as Democratic Sen. Sherrod Brown.



Still, far fewer tanks are coming out of the Lima plant than in years past. The drop-off has affected companies such as Verhoff Machine and Welding in Continental, Ohio, which makes seats and other parts for the Abrams.



Ed Verhoff, the company's president, said his sales have dropped from $20 million to $7 million over the past two years. He's also had to lay off about 25 skilled employees and he expects to be issuing more pink slips in the future.


"When we start to lose this base of people, what are we going to do? Buy our tanks from China?" Verhoff said.

 

[dmcowen674]

Those people in Ohio need to find a different line of work, may I suggest learning how to manufacture hamburgers.

That is the only thing Americans make anymore.

 

[Exterous]

This has been an ongoing story since last year. If the military, which has a reputation for wanting to spend a lot of money, is telling you they don't need something then you should probably listen

"When we start to lose this base of people, what are we going to do? Buy our tanks from China?" Verhoff said.

At least for the time being the age of heavy mechanized forces is largely over. Who do we need to fight that would require such a drastic increase in tanks deployed or cause such losses that need to be replenished that the thousands of tanks sitting unused in the desert wouldn't be enough?

 

[chimaxi83]

Those people in Ohio need to find a different line of work, may I suggest learning how to manufacture hamburgers.

That is the only thing Americans make anymore.

With pudgy consumers like yourself, why would they learn to make anything else?

 

[Brainonska511]

At least for the time being the age of heavy mechanized forces is largely over. Who do we need to fight that would require such a drastic increase in tanks deployed or cause such losses that need to be replenished that the thousands of tanks sitting unused in the desert wouldn't be enough?

All of Africa?

 

[Jhhnn]

The problem with politicians and bureaucrats is that they lack imagination. What else could tank makers manufacture that would benefit us all? Why can't we buy that instead?

 

[nextJin]

This happens for all things not just the military. We have a shit load of tanks and the only thing we honestly need are common parts for maintenance, not whole new ones.

Besides that plant in Lima rebuilds 2 a month if I am not mistaken.

 

[Nebor]

I can understand not wanting to shut down the nation's only tank manufacturing apparatus, but surely there's a better way to go about doing it.

 

[God Mode]

Tanks are useless in most of the worlds current conflict zones.

 

[Nintendesert]

This happens for all things not just the military. We have a shit load of tanks and the only thing we honestly need are common parts for maintenance, not whole new ones.

Besides that plant in Lima rebuilds 2 a month if I am not mistaken.

The ONLY legit argument that these corrupt Congressman make is in regards to trained workers. Many of these jobs require apprenticeship and if you shut down an entire industry it will take a long time to restart it because there's nobody there training new apprentices to take over the journeyman positions when those workers retire or move on.

That has happened to the ship building industry and others, however, if there's a war where we ever need over 2,400 tanks I think we'll either have a new tank and new machining requirements and jobs to learn or we'll sure as hell figure it out in short order on how to make repairs and manufacture more tanks regardless of available trained workers.

This really all comes down to Ohio wanting its pork (and when the military says NO, and only Congress says yes, it's pork) and nobody wanting to say no because Ohio is an important swing State.

 

[JTsyo]

Thingwith the Abrams is that it's huge and expensive to maintain overseas. Heard a story from Iraq of a tank supporting infantry. All they had were KE rounds and when asked to shoot down a wall to allow access for infantry, all they could do was put a a hole through a block of houses a few inches in diameter. The purpose on a MBT is to take on another armor and I don't see that need being used soon. It's the wrong tool for the current wars.

 

[Attic]

Basically they have to spend this money or else. This happens in all areas of government and it fuels hugely wasteful spending everywhere the governments touch reaches.

 

[dawheat]

Would it cost over a billion dollars to retool the line if they shut it down until 2017? You'd still come out a billion bucks ahead.

 

[dawp]

why do you think defense contractors have a presence in every state? so shit like this would happen. hard to kill a project if every state is effected.

 

[uhohs]

I've always wondered why we don't have tank/ground drones in addition to the drones in the air.

 

[Naeeldar]

why do you think defense contractors have a presence in every state? so shit like this would happen. hard to kill a project if every state is effected.

Exactly. The airforce has a jet project like this right now. I know one of the big areas it's built is down in alabama and it works well. Congress gets voted in because the people are happy. The people vote their congress in because of the jobs etc... And then you get a massive program spanning states so enough people in congress would never ever vote to can the project.

 

[Nintendesert]

I've always wondered why we don't have tank/ground drones in addition to the drones in the air.

Depending on terrain it can be extremely difficult to maintain normal communications let alone communications enough to control a land based drone.

I'm not saying it's not doable but driving your remote controlled tank into a tunnel and losing control would be quite embarrassing.

 

[nageov3t]

it's stimulus spending?

 

[Pocatello]

Buying tanks from China, why not?

 

[Moonbeam]

We should have a tank in every garage. It would prevent invasion and takeover by the government and make road rage a thing of the past as the gene for it slowly becomes extinct.

 

[Vic Vega]

The military doesn't dictate to the Federal Government, we have a civilian controlled military in this country.

 

[Fern]

One one hand I think the military knows best how to allocated funds. OTOH, I understand keeping our manufacturing in place. Since it looks like it's only a token amount of tanks being produced I don't mind.

As far as tanks not be able to shoot down walls and only being useful against other armor, I think that's an easy fix and I think tanks are pretty flexible, or at least have the capability of being so.

Fern

 

[OverVolt]

it's stimulus spending?

Yea my thoughts exactly.

 

[Darwin333]

The military doesn't dictate to the Federal Government, we have a civilian controlled military in this country.

This is true but it is patently retarded to not listen to said military when it comes to spending billions of dollars. Saying that the civilian leaders, or our politicians, know what the army needs better than I dunno, the freaking army is equally retarded. Unfortunately, as you point out they do have the power to make retarded decisions.

 

[Fern]

This is true but it is patently retarded to not listen to said military when it comes to spending billions of dollars. Saying that the civilian leaders, or our politicians, know what the army needs better than I dunno, the freaking army is equally retarded. Unfortunately, as you point out they do have the power to make retarded decisions.

It sounds like Congress is more making a long term strategic decision to maintain manufacturing capability than dictating to the military what equip they'll fight with. I have no problem with that, that's within their role. (Of course another part seems to be economic, which is also within their role. Now, whether it's a smart use of resources or not is another discussion.)

Fern