Discussion ARM vs Qualcomm: The Lawsuit Begins

[Raqia]

That's such a misleading generic statement, I'm speechless. He's not 100% lying, but that's so approximate he would not pass the recruiting barrage where I work if he insisted on being 100% correct.

An ISA assuming VLIW or some variants of it (e.g. TI c6x, Intel Itanium) or some memory ordering variant or the existence of SIMD instructions, etc. has dramatic impacts on how a CPU is designed. Of course the ISA alone doesn't drive all decisions on the design of a CPU, but it has enough impacts all around the place that disconnecting one from the other leads to an underperforming uarch. People thinking changing an Arm front-end with an x86 one is just plug and play are delusional; I don't mean to say you can't have a uarch doing well on both ISA, it's just that the extra work beyond decoding is massive and has roots in the supported ISA's.

Agree that ISA's may inform a uArch, but how much value is ARM allowed to claim for an ALA licensee, the entirety of the allegedly "derivative" uArch as ARM (much more) misleadingly claims? (An extreme example might be an ARM emulator running on x86...) ARM themselves tacitly admit that the use and validation of an ISA and its implementation is not the bulk of the value in what they charge for a TLA vs an ALA:

Documents revealed Qualcomm ALA/TLA licensing rates:
ALA– 1.1% / $0.58
TLA – 5.3% / $2.2

Qualcomm vs. Arm trial, Day 1 – Opening statements and surprising revelations – Tantra Analyst

Qualcomm is one of the largest customers of Arm. However ever since Qualcomm announced that it is acquiring Nuvia, the two companies have been at odds regarding

www.tantraanalyst.com

Qualcomm has an ALA and can hire whoever it wants to design its ARM implementations. Even if the design transfer violates the contract with respect to some technical interpretations of wording, I hardly think they can demand the complete destruction of the uArch, the bulk of which contains no new work by ARM. I think that they are within their rights to demand that the work done by them under the prior ALA should be destroyed and redone in order to collect those fees, but the Phoenix uArch coupled w/ Qualcomm's own implementation of the decoders should definitely be considered a different ALA implementation as far as the reach of the value contributed by ARM is concerned.

IMO this should have been settled long ago with 3rd party arbitration, however ARM is asking for the nuclear option to boost short term valuation to float more shares (iirc only 10% are floated today) at inflated prices. This move is in the longer run very much cutting off its own nose to spite its face.

 

[Nothingness]

(An extreme example might be an ARM emulator running on x86...)

Didn't Intel flex its muscles about AVX2 software emulation on Arm? I can't find the link anymore but IIRC it was an official statement.

 

[FlameTail]

Didn't Intel flex its muscles about AVX2 software emulation on Arm? I can't find the link anymore but IIRC it was an official statement.

I heard that Microsoft- the 900 pound gorilla in the room, told Intel to shut up.

 

[ikjadoon]

Didn't Intel flex its muscles about AVX2 software emulation on Arm? I can't find the link anymore but IIRC it was an official statement.

IIRC, Intel was unhappy about Arm devices emulating even just x86 when the Snapdragon 835 was launching on Windows 10.

Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, claims x86 emulation is a patent minefield

Intel doesn’t name names, but Windows 10 on ARM is surely the target of its ire.

arstechnica.com

https://www.axios.com/2017/12/15/intel-steer-clear-of-our-patents-1513302880

(original link 404s; Wayback Machine has it, though)

However, there have been reports that some companies may try to emulate Intel’s proprietary x86 ISA without Intel’s authorization. Emulation is not a new technology, and Transmeta was notably the last company to claim to have produced a compatible x86 processor using emulation (“code morphing”) techniques. Intel enforced patents relating to SIMD instruction set enhancements against Transmeta’s x86 implementation even though it used emulation. In any event, Transmeta was not commercially successful, and it exited the microprocessor business 10 years ago.

Only time will tell if new attempts to emulate Intel’s x86 ISA will meet a different fate. Intel welcomes lawful competition, and we are confident that Intel’s microprocessors, which have been specifically optimized to implement Intel’s x86 ISA for almost four decades, will deliver amazing experiences, consistency across applications, and a full breadth of consumer offerings, full manageability and IT integration for the enterprise. However, we do not welcome unlawful infringement of our patents, and we fully expect other companies to continue to respect Intel’s intellectual property rights. Strong intellectual property protections make it possible for Intel to continue to invest the enormous resources required to advance Intel’s dynamic x86 ISA, and Intel will maintain its vigilance to protect its innovations and investments.

Steven Rodgers is executive vice president and general counsel for Intel Corporation. Richard A. Uhlig is an Intel Fellow in Intel Labs and director of Systems and Software Research.

I didn't catch know about Microsoft's response, @FlameTail. Was there a report on that?

 

[jdubs03]

Update here:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1870209359071867175

Looks like Qualcomm is going to win on Q2 and Q3.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1870207530472726966

 

[Hesperax]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1870213740441858406

Q1 is Deadlocked. Qualcomm won Q2 and Q3.

Not sure if Q1 matters since Qualcomm did a Reverse Triangle Merger with Nuvia.

 

[Hesperax]

The Jury Questions for Reference:

 

[Win2012R2]

WOW!!!

 

[trivik12]

What does it mean? I am sure Arm will appeal? It will go all the way to Supreme Court. But in the interim QCOM will keep releasing new products. Can they also adopt ArmV9?

 

[Raqia]

What does it mean? I am sure Arm will appeal? It will go all the way to Supreme Court. But in the interim QCOM will keep releasing new products. Can they also adopt ArmV9?

I don't think the court will want to waste much of its time and this one point of contention is related to Nuvia, not Qualcomm. I would say damages would be limited in that case since it was concluded that Qualcomm had a valid license for Oryon, and Nuvia's Phoenix with ARM's initial work was never released.

Qualcomm has an ARMv9 ALA already which extends well past this decade with its option to extend. Fortunately for competition, they will be able to compete w/ the likes of Apple, nVidia et al. and will have enough time to spearhead a pivot to an alternative like the RISC-V ecosystem before ARM has them by the throat again.

 

[soresu]

Can they also adopt ArmV9?

If the ALA was specific to v8-A they may have to renegotiate for a v9-A license, and ARM may be able to refuse that to them if they are set on being stupid.

 

[poke01]

IMO, this means the ARM ecosystem is safe. Good, looks like QC will stay will use ARM ISA for a long time. Bad news for x86

 

[soresu]

and will have enough time to spearhead a pivot to an alternative like the RISC-V ecosystem before ARM has them by the throat again.

People need to stop hanging on this because it just isn't viable.

The sheer amount of native ARM code in the smartphone space was enough to create an unassailable bulwark against Intel breaking into it with x86 options, and I don't imagine that the situation has become any less problematic for competing ISAs since.

In the Mac or WoA markets the problem is even worse, because the code bases people want ported to them tend to be beefier than most smartphone/tablet apps to the point that we still don't have native ARM ports for a whole raft of major applications on WoA.

It would take Apple switching to RISC-V and enforcing the change, and frankly I just don't see that as likely at this point.

Obviously using a royalty free ISA would be ideal, but it's not such a problem that Apple are losing sleep over it, especially not when they clearly have enough pull with ARM to get something like SME created in the ISA to align with their own additions.

 

[adroc_thurston]

The sheer amount of native ARM code in the smartphone space was enough to create an unassailable bulwark against Intel breaking into it with x86 options, and I don't imagine that the situation has become any less problematic for competing ISAs since.

That really wasn't the issue.
Now, modem IP? too bad.

 

[poke01]

RISC-V isn’t happening for another 15-20 years. It’s ways too limited software wise, implementation wise and hardware wise but the amount of work put into is considerable mainly by startups.

No major company isn’t supporting it and now with Qualcomm winning most of the case then it just assures ARM ISA dominance
for a long time.

 

[soresu]

That really wasn't the issue.

Modems obviously were a major point of contention, but app compatibility and/or performance certainly wasn't a non issue.

 

[poke01]

That really wasn't the issue.
Now, modem IP? too bad.

Apple will crack it after 8 years. I don’t count the 2025 modem it’s too limited. It’s hard but doable.
2026 will be a fun year for iPhones.

—-
Intel was stupid to sell the radios, oh well.

 

[adroc_thurston]

Modems obviously were a major point of contention

It was the only real one.

but app compatibility and/or performance certainly wasn't a non issue.

Intel could've bruteforced these. RF warchest? uh oh

Apple will crack it after 8 years

every time

I don’t count the 2025 modem it’s too limited. It’s hard but doable.
2026 will be a fun year for iPhones.

every goddamn time.

Intel was stupid to sell the radios, oh well.

RF stuff is hardly useful unless you're a phone vendor.

 

[adroc_thurston]

nothing ever happens bros won again

 

[poke01]

Intel could've bruteforced these. RF warchest? uh oh

How is Apple managing to release one in 2 years??

Licensing agreements with QC?

 

[soresu]

It was the only real one.

I knew 2 people who had Intel/Android tablets back when they were available.

(they weren't tech people like us, so they were a good yardstick for the average consumer)

It wasn't the only one.

 

[adroc_thurston]

How is Apple managing to release one in 2 years??

by it being bad (probably very bad).

I knew 2 people who had Intel/Android tablets back when they were available.

Yeah I know Bay Trail era stuff.
Again, the #1 issue was the modem.

 

[poke01]

by it being bad (probably very bad).

Agree, the first one will be very bad

 

[gdansk]

ARM is better off losing this case anyway. Long term it's better to have Qualcomm assault the PC market now even if royalty is lower.
Should have waited until Qualcomm had to renegotiate their ALA

 

[lakedude]

Qualcomm has an ARMv9 ALA already

Are you sure about that?