Arizona to Fed on immigration - screw you

[Kadarin]

Well, thats what I want, and it may be what many folks here on the forums want, but I would not be so bold as to suggest its what the majority of Americans want.

I would be that bold.

 

[blackangst1]

I can tell this probably getting me nowhere, but what the hell I've wasted this much time might as well waste some more. You may be 100% correct and the Feds are wasting their time, there will never be any abuse, and I will end up eating crow. I simply want people to see about things from a different point of view for a moment and think about them.

So hypothetically what if you were from say New Mexico or Utah, both border Arizona.
According to Arizona law DL from those states do not prove non-alien status.
How does a US citizen from one of those states traveling in Arizona prove to a LEO that they are indeed a US citizen if questioned? (Noting that most people only travel with the standard DL, Insurance info, and registration.)

I dont know. Ask LEO. You have to remember its not up to you to prove youre innocent, its up to them to prove youre guilty. Thats the foundation of our laws, in case youve forgotten. Remember "reasonable suspicion"?

edit: BTW maybe you can also rant on AZ's human smuggling laws while youre at it. I mean, lets say youre a latino bus driver carrying 20 latino children in a bus. You get pulled over. Obviously the children dont have ID, so, you suspect human smuggling and take em all in.

Sounds reasonable right? Thats exactly what people said would happen when AZ passed this law. But guess what: it hasnt happened. And as a result of this law, hundreds of smugglers have been turned over to ICE. AZ passed this law for the same reason they passed SB1070...because the feds arent doing their job. And that law mirrors federal human trafficking law, yet hasnt been thrown out as unconstitutional.

 

[spidey07]

I would be that bold.

And you'd be correct. A recent poll.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/07/fox-news-poll-arizona-right-action-immigration/

The new poll finds the biggest concern about illegal immigration is the overburdening of government programs. Forty-four percent cite the strain on government services — far outdistancing all other concerns. About one in five (19 percent) says their biggest concern is illegal immigrants taking jobs away from U.S. citizens, while smaller numbers mention an increase in crime (6 percent) and terrorism (6 percent).

 

[CrackRabbit]

I dont know. Ask LEO. You have to remember its not up to you to prove youre innocent, its up to them to prove youre guilty. Thats the foundation of our laws, in case youve forgotten. Remember "reasonable suspicion"?

Correct.
This is the point where the racial profiling abuse I have been harping about can happen.
"reasonable suspicion" is the sticky point, what qualifies that?
If none of the documents provided prove citizenship or legal residency, what does the LEO use to determine the "reasonable suspicion" that the person being questioned is not a citizen or legal resident?
And how, at this point, does the LEO keep from using race or ethnicity as part of that "reasonable suspicion"?


Edit: I think the bus driver analogy is maybe a bit far fetched. 20 adults stuffed into a minivan, with no ID at all, who try to bail when stopped, not so much. Something like that I feel would meet "reasonable suspicion" without being racial profiling.
I understand Arizonian's frustration with the lack of federal enforcement of laws. I feel that SB1070, though well intentioned, doesn't provide enough protections for US citizens and legal residents from undue law enforcement harassment. That is on top of the issue of the possibility of racial profiling that may take place to determine "reasonable suspicion".

See aren't things nicer when everyone remains civil, even if we disagree?

 

[blackangst1]

Correct.
This is the point where the racial profiling abuse I have been harping about can happen.
"reasonable suspicion" is the sticky point, what qualifies that?
If none of the documents provided prove citizenship or legal residency, what does the LEO use to determine the "reasonable suspicion" that the person being questioned is not a citizen or legal resident?
And how at this point does the LEO keep from using race or ethnicity as part of that "reasonable suspicion"?

After all this outrage, at this point you STILL havent read Terry v Ohio, OR Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, have you. That was a statement BTW not a question.

/sigh

Tell you what. If youre still confused after reading those, then we talk. Until then, theres no point arguing about something you yourself wont bother to look in to. Youre beginning to be worse than the death panel crowd.

 

[shortylickens]

And you'd be correct. A recent poll.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/07/fox-news-poll-arizona-right-action-immigration/

Umm, that poll came from Fox News. Please understand if I dont trust it.

 

[spidey07]

Umm, that poll came from Fox News. Please understand if I dont trust it.

Fine. Take 10 points from one side and add it to the other. Point remains.

 

[CrackRabbit]

After all this outrage, at this point you STILL havent read Terry v Ohio, OR Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, have you. That was a statement BTW not a question.

/sigh

Tell you what. If youre still confused after reading those, then we talk. Until then, theres no point arguing about something you yourself wont bother to look in to. Youre beginning to be worse than the death panel crowd.

I read both, and the Arizona stop and identify statute for good measure.

In my scenario the person has identified themselves beyond what Arizona law requires. At that point the LEO has very few options as to what constitutes "reasonable suspicion" that the suspect is not a legal resident.
Further detainment would likely be due to racial profiling.

Edit: In the Terry case the suspects were behaving in a manner that caused the officer to take note and observe before moving in to detain.
While there are many observable behaviors that can give an officer "reasonable suspicion" that a person is committing the crime of being in the country illegally a simple traffic stop or questioning a guy standing on a street corner I do not believe provide the "reasonable suspicion" as defined by Terry especially if the Arizona stop and identify statutes are met.

 

[blackangst1]

I read both, and the Arizona stop and identify statute for good measure.

In my scenario the person has identified themselves beyond what Arizona law requires. At that point the LEO has very few options as to what constitutes "reasonable suspicion" that the suspect is not a legal resident.
Further detainment would likely be due to racial profiling.

Edit: In the Terry case the suspects were behaving in a manner that caused the officer to take note and observe before moving in to detain.
While there are many observable behaviors that can give an officer "reasonable suspicion" that a person is committing the crime of being in the country illegally a simple traffic stop or questioning a guy standing on a street corner I do not believe provide the "reasonable suspicion" as defined by Terry especially if the Arizona stop and identify statutes are met.

And you still question reasonable suspicion? You say you've read it, but did you understand what you read? Its a pretty widly used thing in law enforcement...

And to you, in the spirit of remaining civil, I will offer you what I offered someone else with the same non issues you have. Ive pasted from another thread:

Im not sure what youre looking for here. It seems you are looking for a laundry list of specific circumstances in which LEO can question immigration status. That, sir, is unreasonable. Reasonable suspicion is at the officers discretion, as it should be. Theres no way a laundry list of "permitted circumstances" could possibly be written into law. If you did it with this law, you would have to do it for every law. But, as I mentioned above, AZ LEO has already been down this road, and have been shown to be professional, respectful, and within the law. Is is possible some officer will profile? Absolutely. But you cant legislate that possibility away. It just cant be done. What can be done, however, is to make the legislation as restrictive as possible, which is what AZ has done. But if abuses happen, they will need to be looked at one case at a time, as has been done over 2100 times in Maricopa County. If abuses DO happen, you can bet the courts will be all over it.

Ive never said it wasnt a possibility. In fact, what Ive said was, it is; however, Ive also pointed out that the rules of reasonable suspicion are pretty defined, by SCOTUS. Ive also said that any investigations that find that profiling did in fact take place, I support punishing that behavior. In all your reading I guess you missed that. Perhaps you also missed where I stated AZ LEO is not a rookie in the racial profiling accusation game. The first federal investigation into such practices, that I know of, was about 4-5 years ago, as well as ACLU lawsuit against Maricopa, as well as another 1200 or so lawsuits against Maricopa in the last 4 years...all of which failed to come up with a conviction. Why? Because in this country an illegal alien can sue, and they, along with those here legally who support them, are PISSED. Im not talking about the average illegal but rather the criminal sector.Because AZ LEO are costing the human, drug, and weapons smugglers BILLIONS. Do you not think if all this abuse was so rampant, and the possibilities so great, at least ONE case would come to fruition?

And as Ive said before, the statutes for reasonable suspicion are pretty clear, and it wouldnt be difficult to ask a few random questions to see response. The few times Ive been stopped for things, I was always asked where I was going, where I lived, what I was doing in the area, etc. Was I profiled? Because someone here illegally is probably gonna crack under such basic questions. THAT could create reasonable suspicion.

Here's a tip for you: being in this country IS an illegal activity. And if you look through ICE records of those AZ LEO has turned over to them, you would see AZ LEO isnt looking at seemingly innocent people. The majority of turn overs are criminals. Have you seen our crime stats? Illegals make up less than 5% of our population yet are responsible for >40% of violent crime. We are a major hub and destination for human and child trafficking. The majority or the US's meth now comes from Mexico, thus much of it passes through our state. We have the highest number of kidnaps in the US, 2nd highest in the world. In other words, LEO doesnt have time to go after Joe Martinez who picks tomatos, unless of course his employer is raided.



And finally, this:

Obviously we've reached an impasse. Your only contention seems to be the possibility of racial profiling happening. You seem to think its very likely. In return, I have offered evidence to the contrary. I have offered evidence that AZ LEO has been tested time, and time, and time again, thousands of times, only to be found by the courts to be above board. Why you somehow think things will change now is anyone's guess. All of your other issues i.e. the notion of reasonable suspicion, has been covered ad nauseum, yet you still question it. Why? *shrug* I dunno but its validity in investigation is already pretty much way of law for more than just immigration enforcement. I have also offered dozens of cases where laws similar to AZ's had stood. So at this point, I guess we'll agree to disagree, unless you have something substantitive to offer. Up until now, I have offered not only opinion but court cases, statute quotations, and news articles. All you have is allegation, suspicion, and what if's. Not a very strong stand. Let me know if you come up with something other than conjecture and FUD.

Have a good day.

 

[bfdd]

I find it funny that all of you wanting to boot all of them out immediately don't seem to the mind the cost increases that will occur across the board for a lot of necessary items like food. Not to mention the tax base that would be lost.

Yet you squeal about any possible price increases that may come out of a cap and trade bill and state that it'll wreck the whole economy.

LOL @ tax base. you're an idiot

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

LOL @ tax base. you're an idiot

It would be hard to imagine that sales taxes etc would come close to offsetting the cost of social services illegals consume.

 

[bfdd]

It would be hard to imagine that sales taxes etc would come close to offsetting the cost of social services illegals consume.

There is no way they are a significant tax base.

 

[shortylickens]

There is no way they are a significant tax base.

I dunno, in northern Virginia (particularily Manassas) most of them drive around in nice cars and have expensive toys. Many are in fairly decent houses too.

 

[spidey07]

I dunno, in northern Virginia (particularily Manassas) most of them drive around in nice cars and have expensive toys. Many are in fairly decent houses too.

I'd be rolling large as well if I got paid cash and didn't pay taxes.

 

[shortylickens]

I'd be rolling large as well if I got paid cash and didn't pay taxes.

To say nothing of the drugs many of them bring and sell.

 

[postmortemIA]

To say nothing of the drugs many of them bring and sell.

And let me add that unemployment rate would drop, gov and states would see their budgets increase. Although they don't work most grateful jobs, if there were 13mil less people to compete for jobs, it would be different story. Or, we can find 13mil legal immigrates who would do their jobs and pay taxes.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

And let me add that unemployment rate would drop, gov and states would see their budgets increase. Although they don't work most grateful jobs, if there were 13mil less people to compete for jobs, it would be different story. Or, we can find 13mil legal immigrates who would do their jobs and pay taxes.

Nope. The reason unemployment rates are high is that people are laid off. Since the government will have to view them as citizens, they'll wind up on Medicaid. That's going to increase the cost of social services in all 50 states, driving up the cost of health care and sucking treasuries dry.


Most of those who do find work won't be paying much income because they'll find low paying jobs and what little they pay in taxes won't cover the additional costs.

 

[spidey07]

Arizona Governor responds to Obama. Take this as a big FUCK YOU OBAMA, do your job. She should run for president.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLgZ1LWLlko&feature=player_embedded

 

[blackangst1]

POTUS mocking AZ enforcing what WADC wont? Wow what a jackass.

 

[spidey07]

POTUS mocking AZ enforcing what WADC wont? Wow what a jackass.

It's obvious Arizona had to do this. They are under siege and the federal government is doing nothing.

 

[blackangst1]

It's obvious Arizona had to do this. They are under siege and the federal government is doing nothing.

Yes, I know. I live here and see it pretty much daily.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Arizona Governor responds to Obama. Take this as a big FUCK YOU OBAMA, do your job. She should run for president.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLgZ1LWLlko&feature=player_embedded

wow, just wow.....

jan brewer 2012?

 

[ShawnD1]

A large portion of LEGAL immigrants support what AZ is doing.

This is actually true in a lot of places. Immigrants who legally enter the country and go through all the bullshit hoops and paper work have some of the harshest opinions against illegals.