Arizona, the most Constitutional state left in the union

[TechAZ]

Apples and oranges.



Exdeath covers it fairly well. Also, you can choose not to drive, and find another method of transportation, thereby avoiding DWI checkpoints. You can't practically choose to avoid going out in public where you can be stopped by police for your papers.



Largely, this.

Maybe some people don't understand that here in Phoenix, there are groups of illegals....sorry, undocumented workers, who just hang out in front of Home Depots and wait for people to hire them for work. It is very noticeable, and it's bullshit that police weren't able to do anything about it.

Maybe I'm wrong, but this might be why.

 

[bob4432]

why not link driver's license to gun license? so when they look up in the computer it will show up with both.

because you don't need a gun license in AZ to have or now have limited concealed carry. you can still get a ccw permit that other states recognize and also a couple other benefits, but the ccw info, from what i hear, comes up at least w/ dps if you get pulled over.

i will verify w/ a phx cop friend and see what info comes up people since dps and pd between the cities is a bit different.

 

[bob4432]

Maybe some people don't understand that here in Phoenix, there are groups of illegals....sorry, undocumented workers, who just hang out in front of Home Depots and wait for people to hire them for work. It is very noticeable, and it's bullshit that police weren't able to do anything about it.

Maybe I'm wrong, but this might be why.

well that and the daily stops w/ the 10-20 undocumented persons in the vehicle. or the 6-10 in the bed of a truck w/ wood and stuff over them. unless you live here and see it nearly daily on the news you wouldn't understand the volume of undocumented persons coming in daily. plus add in the AZ rancher that was just recently gunned down on his ranch in south AZ kind of pisses people.

the feds won't do anything about it and neither would our last governor, so we are forced to do it ourselves w/ a governor that listens to the people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctrLrhrXB1M

 

[txrandom]

well that and the daily stops w/ the 10-20 undocumented persons in the vehicle. or the 6-10 in the bed of a truck w/ wood and stuff over them. unless you live here and see it nearly daily on the news you wouldn't understand the volume of undocumented persons coming in daily. plus add in the AZ rancher that was just recently gunned down on his ranch in south AZ kind of pisses people.

the feds won't do anything about it and neither would our last governor, so we are forced to do it ourselves w/ a governor that listens to the people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctrLrhrXB1M

When does the law go into effect? Hopefully they will actually use it and other states will see the usefulness.

 

[her209]

IIRC, Arizona will make it a felony to employ an illegal immigrant which gets a :thumbsup: from me.

 

[feralkid]

IIRC, Arizona will make it a felony to employ an illegal immigrant which gets a :thumbsup: from me.

I don't think even the lunatic AZ Legislature has the balls or votes to do that.

Though I'd like to see it happen.

 

[bfdd]

Even the USP Compacts are rather large. A K40 or P11 or something of that size would be prefereble for total concealment.

On the other hand, I no longer have to be conscious of wearing a coat while I'm carrying. I've never had any real need or desire to conceal, and thus never got a permit, but it's inconvenient at times being conscious of whether or not I may be inadvertently concealing.

Compact isn't that large, my brother has a USP 40 Compact and it's pretty nice. I like the XD I have personally, .45, I wish I could carry here. That shit doesn't fly in California with all the anti-gun hippies running the show.

 

[bfdd]

IIRC, Arizona will make it a felony to employ an illegal immigrant which gets a :thumbsup: from me.

that would be awesome.

 

[IronWing]

IIRC, Arizona will make it a felony to employ an illegal immigrant which gets a :thumbsup: from me.

Quite incorrect. Under the bill, employers can only get nailed if they "knowingly" hire illegals. "I didn't know" is a valid defense for employers. If they get caught, employers are required to self certify that they fired all the illegals currently on staff and they get a stern letter. On second offense they might lose their business licenses. Again, it has to be knowing and willful.

On the other hand, under this bill, if someone picks up a hitchhiker who hapens to be an illegal, the driver can be nailed for a felony. In this case "I didn't know" isn't a valid excuse.

The bottom line is that the legislation is not designed to get rid of illegals, it is designed to keep them underground, exploitable. Exploitable illegal labor runs Arizona's farms and ranches and built its cities.

 

[woolfe9999]

So go make a thread about it. :awe:

Sorry, the point was fair game because of the way the OP constructed his thread title. He didn't make it specific to guns. It's a lesson in why not to overstate conclusions in your thread titles.

- wolf

 

[woolfe9999]

Where in the Constitution does it prohibit that?

The 4th Amendment prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures. Apparently the Arizona law puts virtually no standards on when and why someone can be stopped and asked for ID.

Even if this is Constitutional, it sounds rather police statish to me.

- wolf

 

[Darwin333]

Driving is a privilege.

What does that have to do with unreasonable search and seizure? Last I checked, you didn't forfeit your rights simply because you are doing something that is a privilege. Do you also lose your 5th amendment rights while driving?

 

[Darwin333]

DWI checkpoints are announced ahead of time and you can choose to avoid the area. It's also public property, and everyone is equally checked without discrimination.

Ahh, well as long as they are equally searching everyone thats ok then? As long as they search an entire neighborhood of houses, without discrimination, its perfectly ok, right? The issue with DWI checkpoints has nothing to do with discrimination and everything to do with searching a person and his property with absolutely no probable cause.

And "you can avoid the area" is not a valid argument.

 

[blackangst1]

Maybe some people don't understand that here in Phoenix, there are groups of illegals....sorry, undocumented workers, who just hang out in front of Home Depots and wait for people to hire them for work. It is very noticeable, and it's bullshit that police weren't able to do anything about it.

Maybe I'm wrong, but this might be why.

Ive used them before But yah...the Home Depot here off the 101 and 59th Ave always has at least a dozen.

And calling an illegal alien an undocumented worker is like calling a drug dealer an undocumented pharmicist.

 

[bob4432]

Quite incorrect. Under the bill, employers can only get nailed if they "knowingly" hire illegals. "I didn't know" is a valid defense for employers. If they get caught, employers are required to self certify that they fired all the illegals currently on staff and they get a stern letter. On second offense they might lose their business licenses. Again, it has to be knowing and willful.

On the other hand, under this bill, if someone picks up a hitchhiker who hapens to be an illegal, the driver can be nailed for a felony. In this case "I didn't know" isn't a valid excuse.

The bottom line is that the legislation is not designed to get rid of illegals, it is designed to keep them underground, exploitable. Exploitable illegal labor runs Arizona's farms and ranches and built its cities.

can you post the areas of the bill that you are explaining? i hate to break it to you, but the illegal situation is not an AZ problem only, we see probably the most due to the terrain at the border area but it is still a huge issue in NM, TX and CA, just that the current AZ legislature and gov are actually doing something about it.

personally, i would much rather see the feds take care of the problem since it is a national border, but they are too pussified to do shit about it. i would like to see logical immigration reform where the people wanting to get into the country can w/out knowing somebody - but the corruption on the south side mixed w/ the bullshit on our side makes it a multi-year ordeal.

i have friends around the country and some are legal aliens and even they are pissed about the illegal situation because they did things correctly and took the time to fill out the papers, wait and theh come, plus pay all the taxes where the illegals do not. lumping this into an AZ only problem is just ignorant. this is a national situation. and of course, the feds just standing there saying they will do something but do nothing. phx hasn't become the kidnap capital of the US because the feds are doing a good job...the video link i posted above is not that out of the ordinary - the fact that they got 28 people in the van is a bit high, but nearly every day some bust is on the news whether it be 10 in the bed of a pickup, a drop house here or there, etc.

 

[exdeath]

Ahh, well as long as they are equally searching everyone thats ok then? As long as they search an entire neighborhood of houses, without discrimination, its perfectly ok, right? The issue with DWI checkpoints has nothing to do with discrimination and everything to do with searching a person and his property with absolutely no probable cause.

And "you can avoid the area" is not a valid argument.

Wow we went from being stationed at a fixed public place with advance notice to sweeping neighborhoods and breaking into private property and home invasions.

Quite a stretch.

Also do you even know how a DWI checkpoint works? They don't escalate to a stop or search unless there is probable cause that you are intoxicated (eg: open bottle, smell, slurred speech, etc). The checkpoint is just to establish close contact with the public at a problem area. They are still required to have probable cause to pull you aside and conduct a search.

Also peering into your vehicle window with a flashlight from outside is not unreasonable search, as nothing is revealed that wouldn't be revealed in plain open view to any casual person walking past the vehicle.

If DWI checkpoints are unconstitutional, then so is having a police officer standing around at the mall with his eyes open.

Not that I support anything that is remotely police-statish, just providing an opposing reasonable justification.

The Constitution must always be taken with context of supporting documents and opinions and philisophical views of the many people who contributed to it. Perhaps you should read up on the sorts of experiences that lead to the need for the 4th amendment, and see that simply having law enforcement stationed in a public area waving people through and only stopping people who give probable cause does not violate it. A DWI checkpoint in and of itself merely establishes contact with the public and allows an opportunity to witness probable cause, it does not allow random searches.

 

[MotF Bane]

Ahh, well as long as they are equally searching everyone thats ok then? As long as they search an entire neighborhood of houses, without discrimination, its perfectly ok, right? The issue with DWI checkpoints has nothing to do with discrimination and everything to do with searching a person and his property with absolutely no probable cause.

And "you can avoid the area" is not a valid argument.

lolwut?

 

[bob4432]

The 4th Amendment prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures. Apparently the Arizona law puts virtually no standards on when and why someone can be stopped and asked for ID.

Even if this is Constitutional, it sounds rather police statish to me.

- wolf

well, it is not too hard for a cop to find a reason to legally pull over a car.

 

[IronWing]

can you post the areas of the bill that you are explaining? i hate to break it to you, but the illegal situation is not an AZ problem only, we see probably the most due to the terrain at the border area but it is still a huge issue in NM, TX and CA, just that the current AZ legislature and gov are actually doing something about it.

personally, i would much rather see the feds take care of the problem since it is a national border, but they are too pussified to do shit about it. i would like to see logical immigration reform where the people wanting to get into the country can w/out knowing somebody - but the corruption on the south side mixed w/ the bullshit on our side makes it a multi-year ordeal.

i have friends around the country and some are legal aliens and even they are pissed about the illegal situation because they did things correctly and took the time to fill out the papers, wait and theh come, plus pay all the taxes where the illegals do not. lumping this into an AZ only problem is just ignorant. this is a national situation. and of course, the feds just standing there saying they will do something but do nothing. phx hasn't become the kidnap capital of the US because the feds are doing a good job...the video link i posted above is not that out of the ordinary - the fact that they got 28 people in the van is a bit high, but nearly every day some bust is on the news whether it be 10 in the bed of a pickup, a drop house here or there, etc.

Here is the bill.

I never claimed that it was an Arizona issue but this is an Arizona thread. Employers all over the country enjoy the financial benefits of employing exploitable illegal labor.

Maybe if Sheriff Joe didn't spend so much time mugging for the cameras, hawking his book, beating up brown people, writing himself checks from the public treasury, and picking on prisoners he would have more time to go after kidnappers and Phoenix wouldn't have that distinction.

 

[bob4432]

Here is the bill.

I never claimed that it was an Arizona issue but this is an Arizona thread. Employers all over the country enjoy the financial benefits of employing exploitable illegal labor.

Maybe if Sheriff Joe didn't spend so much time mugging for the cameras, hawking his book, beating up brown people, writing himself checks from the public treasury, and picking on prisoners he would have more time to go after kidnappers and Phoenix wouldn't have that distinction.

the kidnapping situation is directly related to the illegal immigration situation but people bust his balls all the time for doing anything related to that. personally not a big fan of the sheriff but he does get stuff done which is a lot more than many others in this state dealing w/ this problem, well until nappy left, then things started to get moving.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

I commend AZ for upholding the 2nd amendment. Sadly CA is a living testament to Benjamin Franklin' famous quote in bob4432's sig.

 

[bob4432]

more in regards to the illegal immigration issue that think AZ is being heavy handed and don't really understand the magnitude of the situation since they are out of state.

5 Ariz. shuttle services raided in smuggling bust
Posted 4/16/2010 9:37 AM ET
By Bob Christie And Jacques Billeaud, Associated Press Writers
PHOENIX — Federal agents, some in black hoods, swarmed over five Arizona shuttle businesses in a major crackdown on human trafficking, arresting dozens of van operators and smugglers accused of transporting illegal immigrants from the Mexican border to Phoenix.
Authorities said Thursday's raids were the largest human smuggling bust in U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement's seven-year history, and represented a blow to a vital link in an elaborate immigrant trafficking chain.

"It will be extremely difficult to repair that chain. It is the missing link that greatly disrupts the infrastructure of human smuggling organizations," said Dennis Burke, U.S. attorney for Arizona.

Investigators said the four shuttle services in Tucson and one in Phoenix were created solely to help smugglers transport thousands of illegal immigrants under a veil of legitimacy.

The businesses are suspected of giving the migrants fraudulent receipts to make the trips look legitimate and coaching them on what to say if their vans were pulled over by police.

"They didn't advertise at all, because they didn't need to, they had a built-in clientele," said Matthew Allen, the chief of investigations for U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement in Arizona.

Arrests were made in Phoenix, Tucson and two other Arizona towns along the border, Nogales and Rio Rico. Investigators also made arrests in Tennessee, and Mexican authorities detained people in the border state of Sonora. In all, 47 people were in custody, including the leaders of three smuggling operations.

More than 800 agents from nine law enforcement agencies were involved in the bust. Dozens of agents in Phoenix -- some wearing black hoods over their faces -- swarmed a shuttle business early Thursday in a strip mall in a heavily Latino neighborhood.

No one answered phone calls at two of the accused shuttle businesses, Sergio's Shuttle in Phoenix and Saguaro Roadrunner Shuttles in Tucson. There were no Tucson phone listings for the other three accused shuttle services.

The raids occurred amid a heated debate over immigration in Arizona, the busiest illegal gateway into the United States for several years.

Arizona is on the verge of approving a sweeping anti-immigration law that would make it a crime under state law to be in the country illegally while requiring local police to question people about their immigration status if there is reason to suspect they are here illegally.

Jennifer Allen, director of the Border Action Network, a Tucson-based immigrant rights group, said the show of force by federal agents will ultimately hurt the cooperation they get from immigrant communities because residents will be less inclined to call authorities when they witness crimes.

"If communities are afraid to call the police to let them know about criminal activity, criminal activity is going to go right to those neighborhoods," Allen said.

John Morton, assistant secretary of Homeland Security for U.S. Customs and Immigration Enforcement, said investigators gathered evidence that will show the shuttle operators knew they were moving illegal immigrants, despite the claims of many other shuttle operators in the past that they were performing a legitimate service.

"They are in knee-deep. They know exactly what's going on," Morton said. "It's a calculated farce."

Investigators say smugglers would guide immigrants from the Mexican border 65 miles north to Tucson so that they could walk around Border Patrol checkpoints. Once in Tucson, the immigrants would get into shuttle vans would take them to Phoenix via Interstate 10, a route that is patrolled by police but doesn't have checkpoints.

Immigration agents said the five shuttle businesses didn't perform legitimate transportation services, such as bringing customers to airports.

Forty-five percent of all immigrant arrests by U.S. Customs and Border Protection are made in Arizona, and smugglers use Phoenix as a hub for moving illegal immigrants across the country.

The nation's fifth-biggest city has plenty of highways to move people around, growth that makes it easier for smuggling operations to blend into neighborhoods, and countless "drop houses," where immigrants are hidden and smuggling fees are collected before smugglers bring their customers into the country's interior.

http://content.usatoday.net/dist/custom/gci/InsidePage.aspx?cId=azcentral&sParam=33283155.story

 

[IronWing]

I don't think anyone disputes that there is a problem. However, passing blatantly un-Constitutional bills that are sure to get smacked down in court isn't solving anything, it is mere political grandstanding. The AZ legislature would be better serving the people of Arizona if they would knock off this nonsense and balance the state budget.

 

[bob4432]

I don't think anyone disputes that there is a problem. However, passing blatantly un-Constitutional bills that are sure to get smacked down in court isn't solving anything, it is mere political grandstanding. The AZ legislature would be better serving the people of Arizona if they would knock off this nonsense and balance the state budget.

could you highlight the exact parts that are unconstitutional? the sad reality is that if there are unconstitutional parts in the law, the fed gov will do something about it but still do nothing about the illegal immigration situation, probably not until the 2012 election time where they will push amnesty, of course not to do anything for the immigration issue, but just to further the politicians careers.