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Arizona SWAT Team no knocks on innocent former marine and kills him

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Jaskalas said:
You advocate murder.
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And you are a hysterical nut.

I have made it pretty fucking clear that the loss of life in this situation was totally unwarranted. You disgrace the dead by driving your crack pot theories more so than finding the best way to save lives 1st and foremost - both the Marine's and the SWAT members.

A life that is willing to die for the civilians of this country is far more worthy than I can possibly imagine; it is a terrible loss. And the solution is not shooting "them" before they shoot you.

The "them" in this case is someone who is willing to risk their lives for us as well. You may think drugs is something that is not worth it, but they are armed the way they are for a reason. And, our government clearly supports their efforts to stop drugs.

You seem more focused on screaming about home invasions and overlords than coming up with a solution that would ensure our protectors are not killing one another.

Then again, sounds like you feel it's OK to off one "type" of protector over the other - if that is indeed the case; go fuck yourself man, you make me sick.
 
Macamus Prime said:
You seem more focused on screaming about home invasions and overlords than coming up with a solution that would ensure our protectors are not killing one another.
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You are too ignorant to read then?

Jaskalas said:
I have a simple requirement for not killing home invaders. Identity yourselves and give ample time to surrender.
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15 seconds is murder. They forced the violent confrontation. All they had to do was wait and they wouldn't have murdered a man trying to protect his family.
 
According to the Sheriff, the raid was the end result of a 20-month investigation. If so, it's even more ridiculous that this raid was so rushed and sloppy. They waited nearly two years to acquire a search warrant, yet couldn't give the suspect more than 15 fucking seconds to answer the door, or couldn't just search when he wasn't home?

The Sheriff also gave us some new weasel words: in a storage unit rented by Guerena's mother they found "high-end military gear and advanced weatherprotective clothing." If this is anything like the "portion of a law-enforcement uniform" (i.e. hat with the words "Border Patrol" on it), I'm guessing they found a swiss army knife and a raincoat.
 
Macamus Prime said:
What is the reality of the environment he lived in with his family? Was the neighborhood where the Marine lived in experiencing constant home invasions? Also, was the Marine invaded quite a few times in the past?
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I believe his wife's family was the victim of a home invasion that left someone dead.

The home invasions I know of and heard of, are made up of thugs and gangstars. Not decked out SWAT members.

Also, if someone with that amount of firepower showed up, I would be dead no matter what.
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Exactly. Why did the police use a SWAT team? What ever happened to knocking on a door and serving a freaking warrant? I'm all for SWAT teams and no-knock warrants and the like when they're justified, but where is the justification for raiding this guy's house like that?
 
BeauJangles said:
Exactly. Why did the police use a SWAT team? What ever happened to knocking on a door and serving a freaking warrant? I'm all for SWAT teams and no-knock warrants and the like when they're justified, but where is the justification for raiding this guy's house like that?
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they use swat teams to serve warrants all the time anymore saldy

this whole deal was a huge cockup by the police(atleast it looks that way).

the sherrif is doing his best to muddy the water and is mostly looking like a tard. Im sure this fancy gear they found in storage isnt fairly standard gear you can get from bdu.com/ that alot of soldiers have
 
Macamus Prime said:
America's healthcare system is institutionalized and unjustifiable since it seeks profits at the expense of human suffering - lots of people seem to be fighting to keep that bastard going.
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Irrelevant to the argument. I support single payer universal healthcare, by the way.

Also and more importantly; the Marine would still be alive. Thanks for not praising that point. Good job.

:thumbsup:
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Everything about this story points to a colossal procedural SNAFU by the State and SWAT team. and it seems you're arguing the point that it's Geurena's fault the SWAT team shot him because he had a gun (i apologize if that is not what you are intending to say, but it's what i read). Blaming the victim is easy, but it's a lazy analysis of a complex situation. The marine would still be alive if the people that need to be held accountable actually performed their job in a professional and humane manner, starting with the obvious: they denied medical assistance to Guerena, still alive, for over an hour.

But that's totally cool if people get their homes entered at the wrong address (happened!), their dogs or kids shot (happened!), as long as John Smith manages to get "lucky", avoid being riddled with bullets, and sue the fuckers, right? You have not actually presented an argument that a select group of citizens benefiting from lawsuits justifies the use of oppressive and unwarranted government force against other citizens or even makes it desirable if not justified.

I also think you're presenting a false dichotomy with your a) and b) choices a few posts back. I agree with you that the media will spin these stories as such, that the SWAT team will get a slap on the wrist as it goes with nearly all police brutality cases, and that yeah somewhere some guy might get a legal windfall because of a police force screw up. But where's the c) reform the process to prevent unnecessary risk and death to citizens and law enforcement, for example?
 
xj0hnx said:
ROE, where they are, overall mission means shit when bullets start flying.

Yea, he was awaken by people storming into his house, he should have just let them destroy his family, what was he thinking? You do realize that the difference between the cops busting in your door, and some home invaders is that one is wearing a uniform?

We get that you love your government overlords, and wish to serve them as best you can, but some Americans believe in being free, free to not have their homes invaded by SWAT for no reason.
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Dude, you're having an argument with My Little Pony. That's like asking if Susie can skip nap time to come out and debate the economy.

Friends don't let friends debate idiots. Just walk away. Seriously.
 
a777pilot said:
Sheriff Clarence Dupnik

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IA838Any7iY

Now we see what you had in mind.......

Hey, Sheriff, go fuck yourself!
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Wow surprised someone *just* found the connection...why does it not surprise someone against free speech and right to own guns would have a gastapo police force. What a anti american scumbag president should send the FBI down there like in the 60s for civil rights investigations.

This is also same guy despite getting numerous calls for a obvious crazy man to be removed from premises did nothing and blamed weapon after his department failures. So I expect this investigation to go nowhere too.
 
Macamus Prime said:
a) die and have your ass painted as an agressor?

Or

b) take a busted door, 1 hour in cuffs, a tramatized wife/child, an apology by the SWAT team captain, a news story, a few talk shows where a Marine recounts what was going on, further spreading the message that the local law enforcement is stupid and some sort of cash?
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Since he didn't have the benefit of hindsight at the time you must also include C

C) Lay bound on the floor while he watches his wife gang raped and then her and his children killed before they finally put a bullet in him (if he is lucky).

That is the problem when police pull of raids like this on law abiding citizens, the police are the absolutely last people you are expecting to come through the door. If you assume its the police and you are wrong you get option C and you have mere seconds, usually in a disoriented state which the standard police tactic ensures, to make that decision.

Personally I think the marine figured out it was the police but it was already to late. That is why, imo, he held his fire
 
Darwin333 said:
That is the problem when police pull of raids like this on law abiding citizens, the police are the absolutely last people you are expecting to come through the door. If you assume its the police and you are wrong you get option C and you have mere seconds, usually in a disoriented state which the standard police tactic ensures, to make that decision.
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I can't believe there is really a debate here. First of all, this fifteen second thing is bull shit. Watching the video, there is only seven seconds from the time the door is breached until the first shot is fired. Seven. Also, reading further into the story, the dude's in laws were killed not too long ago in a home invasion.

This last December, the girlfriend and I were sound asleep in bed when someone started pounding on the front door. Three o'clock in the morning in the middle of the week someone is pounding on the front door. So, I roll out of bed and rack a round in the chamber on my gun, (M&P 9 Pro I use for competition shooting) and head toward the front door. Couldn't see anything out of the peep hole, so I opened it keeping the gun behind the door. Good thing I did because standing at my front door, in full gear holding an assault rifle, was a member of the SWAT team. He informed me that we needed to bring the dogs in the house because they were looking for someone that was seen breaking into cars. Shortly there after I watched three SWAT team members going through my back yard. Very surreal. They did find the guy in a back yard a few houses down.

So, now that story time is over, the point is this. If they were outside yelling something like "This is the police".... I didn't hear them. I didn't hear anything except the pounding on the door. I had no idea who it was until I opened the door. So, it stands to reason that this guy had no idea who was there until after the door was breached, which gave him only seven seconds to figure out who it was.

The sad thing is..... This incident, like the last time, wont change anything.
 
Truly sad. Sounds like a execution. Then a cover up.

I hope some of those police go to jail and the agency ends up paying millions in compensation to his wife and kid(s).

Hell if the Marine saw combat and had come off a few tours of Afghanistan and Iraq he would certainly be in the frame of mind to defend himself and have weapons. He could have even had a flash back or had PTSD or other related disorder cause him to grab a weapon and not even know it.

If they would have done their homework then they would have known a former Marine and veteran was in the home. Then they could have at least knocked and waited, then if no answer shoot tear gas in there. Then no one had to die.

Definitely a reason to own your own home, make sure it is concrete and put heavy duty steel doors on it. That way they have to ask you to open the darn door, cause they cannot beat it in.
 
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The way this Sheriff is handling it is piss poor with snarky news releases about him having a border patrol hat, body armor, etc with implication Geurena was some militant that deserved to die. These fucktards need to understand public confidence in law enforcement is essential to their survival being outnumbered 1000:1 let alone basic cooperation and law and order which you can't have when Tuscon/Pima Sheriff looks like some hit squad. This is not going to go away and they better own up to some basic holes in their story.

You know you fucked up when former cops are in the march against you...
 
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Artista said:
Sounds like a execution.
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🙄

Why are conspiracy theorists so fucking stupid?
Watch the video, moron. Music playing in the APC, pretty casual attitude -- watch the guy put his thumb in his ear as though the siren is the only thing he expects to be facing anytime soon; listen to the "kill that" trail off to kinda plaintive; watch the guy knocking -- he leans in off-balance, and walks away with his back to the door; watch the guy with the ram with his gay little side-skip, he too walking away tall with his back to the door and then taking the time to balance the ram on its edge, and watch him run away when the shooting starts; and watch the entry team stay in the doorway.

NOTHING in that video aligns with the idea that they are facing a guy that they do not like, have concocted a plan to kill, and are in the process of carrying out said plan. For that you'd expect to see them showing the highest level of prioritizing alertness (ruthlessly filtering out nonessentials), and to see the entry team offensively rush in.
It just doesn't happen. Instead everything points to a routine drug search.
 
Jaskalas said:
Solution, place explosives at your front door. Instead of going for your gun - connect a wire.
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Why would you do that? Use directed force, not open ended explosives and trigger it with someting cute like a CiNi dropper.

Would ruin your front door but the intruder would be pleading with a hole somewhere...

Too bad if it's a neighbour asking for help or something though, but the US is a war zone where everyone should be armed and ready at all times so it's to be expected.
 
Artista said:
Why is it that people like you have to result to insults? I can only pray that a swat team kicks your door down sometime soon and gives you the same treatment.:twisted:
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So because he belittles you for being the utter retard you are you want him dead?

Let me guess, Christian from the South, amirite?

So very much like the Taliban...
 
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