Arizona bill: gay discrimination or religious rights?

[Moonbeam]

Objection! Assumes facts not in evidence.

The purpose of a hypothetical is to assume facts that imply deductive conclusions if those facts are true. Your job is not to announce out of your ass that the facts are not in evidence, but to show that they aren't in evidence. But that would overtax your two brain cells, so I won't hold my breath.

 

[Moonbeam]

FTFY

I'm not sure you could extrapolate that poll to the nation at large, much less the world.

I seriously doubt that we have an accurate sampling of the various groups involved in the poll plus some of the answers are loaded. There are extremists within in all groups and they are paid the most attention which will also skew results. Hate is a pretty strong word; I'd be willing to bet most of us don't know co-workers, relatives and even friends well enough to actually hate them.

As far as the bill itself (and it's near twin in Kansas) I can't understand why any businessperson would willingly turn away business in any economy, much less in an economy that is in recovery mode.

Funny, all I see are folk who would rather die than change.

 

[boomerang]

The purpose of a hypothetical is to assume facts that imply deductive conclusions if those facts are true. Your job is not to announce out of your ass that the facts are not in evidence, but to show that they aren't in evidence. But that would overtax your two brain cells, so I won't hold my breath.

Have you forgiven your mom yet?

 

[Daverino]

Objection! Assumes facts not in evidence.

As a Christian, I could claim that my religion tells me I should not serve non-Christians. Which of course would mean I would not serve you, as you are a fundamentally un-Christian person in my view.

That would really suck for you if I was an EMT and you were having a heart attack, but oh well.

 

[alzan]

Funny, all I see are folk who would rather die than change.

Yeah. Wasn't it Paul who said "In all things, moderation" Pretty sure that includes religious faith and practice.

 

[PokerGuy]

Not familiar with it, but so long as it lets you ban and fire gays for being gay you're all for it.

Absolutely not. I'm not in favor of discriminating against anyone. However, I'm also for people to have the right to freely practice their religious beliefs. Funny how people around here are all too quick to toss out freedoms for things they don't agree with (religion), in favor of other supposed "freedoms".

 

[row]

People claimed a religious objection to desegregation as well. They said mixing races was un-Christian.

some catholic and protestant churches did in fact support discrimination, slavery, all manner of leftist policies of the day. of course didn't happen in your life time. nor your parents. more than likely, your parents parents time. i have it on good authority that folks believed the earth was flat at one time, and get this. some were convinced that global warming was produced by anthropogenics

If we allow religious objections to serving homosexuals, we allow religious objections to serving blacks, women, people with guns, people without guns, toaster lovers, you name it.

muggers, rapists, thieves, pedophiles, leftists, you name it. everyone who has ever lived has practiced selective association. including Jesus. it's called "free association"

... cannot masturbate, cannot eat lobster, cannot cut your hair or your beard, cannot eat rare steak, and that blind men cannot offer up prayers...

the christian bible doesn't say a word about masturbation. anywhere.:whiste:

a business owner should have every right to choose who they serve, and who they don't. regardless of their reason.

a consumer should have every right to choose who they do business with, and who they don't. regardless of their reason.

 

[Incorruptible]

Private property rights must be defended. The owner of a business has the right refuse to service and businesses that do this will lose customers and gain a bad reputation. They also risk angering their current customers and most businesses wouldn't do this since they want to make as much money as possible.

Also it's nice to see people wanting to violate their freedoms for the fake rights of others. As well real Christians wouldn't do this since it goes against the religion.

 

[MrPickins]

It's gonna cost AZ a bunch to defend in court. (Before it's eventually struck down.)

 

[PokerGuy]

That would really suck for you if I was an EMT and you were having a heart attack, but oh well.

Nope, sorry, that doesn't make any sense. If your religious beliefs interfere with your ability to do that job, then you should be doing another job. Clearly emergency services are not the same as other services where there are choices available.

The same question was brought up in the discussion of pharmacists who don't want to dispense medicines based on religious objection. Same logic applies there: if your religion prevents you from doing the job (dispensing the medicines as prescribed by a physician), then you need to go find another job.

 

[Daverino]

the christian bible doesn't say a word about masturbation. anywhere.:whiste:

a business owner should have every right to choose who they serve, and who they don't. regardless of their reason.

a consumer should have every right to choose who they do business with, and who they don't. regardless of their reason.

OK, technically onanism (Genesis 38:8-10), but it doesn't change the point.

And on the other points, we disagree. You as a business owner have a right to choose who you wish to serve so long as your business is private. If you choose to operate a public business, you must accommodate the public. That is the law and it has been that way since 1967.

 

[Daverino]

Nope, sorry, that doesn't make any sense. If your religious beliefs interfere with your ability to do that job, then you should be doing another job. Clearly emergency services are not the same as other services where there are choices available.

Well you'd think so. Luckily for me, AZ wants to pass a law that would allow such things. Now I get to determine who are the Real Christians™ deserving of my goods and services. . .

 

[row]

OK, technically onanism (Genesis 38:8-10), but it doesn't change the point.

And on the other points, we disagree. You as a business owner have a right to choose who you wish to serve so long as your business is private. If you choose to operate a public business, you must accommodate the public. That is the law and it has been that way since 1967.

i don't disagree that it is in fact the law. it just happens to be one that is overbearing and overreaching

 

[Retro Rob]

Nope, sorry, that doesn't make any sense. If your religious beliefs interfere with your ability to do that job, then you should be doing another job. Clearly emergency services are not the same as other services where there are choices available.

Are you saying that it can be objectionable to perform emegercy humane services for a gay person?

 

[PokerGuy]

No, what needs to happen is the SCOTUS needs to just classify sexuality as protected status from any discrimination.

Your unwavering support for judicial activism was never in doubt

 

[PokerGuy]

Well you'd think so. Luckily for me, AZ wants to pass a law that would allow such things. [Now I get to determine who are the Real Christians™ deserving of my goods and services. . .

Wrong, that's not what the law says, at least not based on what I've read. That's just your strawman.

 

[PokerGuy]

Are you saying that it can be objectionable to perform emegercy humane services for a gay person?

How do you fail so miserably at reading and comprehension?? That's not at all what I said.

 

[Retro Rob]

How do you fail so miserably at reading and comprehension?? That's not at all what I said.

Just checking.

 

[PokerGuy]

If you choose to operate a public business, you must accommodate the public. That is the law and it has been that way since 1967.

Nope, that's not the law. You do not have to accommodate everyone in the public, you just cannot discriminate based on specific categories (race, color, religion, or national origin).

You are free to discriminate against the shoeless by requiring those who want service to wear shoes.

 

[bradly1101]

If you're open to the public...you're open to the public regardless of the business owners bigotry imo. If the business owner is insulted in some way (e.g. gays flaunt their sexual orientation to intentionally anger him) he should be allowed to kick them out. Now, how to write that into law? I have no idea.

Trying to anger him? What if it's two guys holding hands buying wedding rings? Is that intentionally angering behavior?

Edit: This brings to mind something that too many "righteous" Christians don't get. Jesus intentionally hung out with the lowest dregs of society...and the reason he did this was not to judge them, but to show them God's mercy and save them. God takes us all as we are...warts and all.

Warts, dregs, needs to be saved? Gay dollars help drive this economy big-time. In fact I'll be upgrading my desktop soon. Maybe I'll send a photo of me and my partner to Amazon to piss them off. I wonder if I'll get my stuff.

 

[bradly1101]

The same goes for atheists...it would be wrong for them to discriminate against religious people as well imo. And as we saw in a recent poll here, there are many more athiests that hate Christians than vice versa. Bigotry is ugly regardless of flavor.

I have yet to meet a hateful, bigoted atheist. I have however met many religious people who are. Atheism doesn't mean 'hatred of Christians or any religious people'.

 

[Retro Rob]

I have yet to meet a hateful, bigoted atheist. I have however met many religious people who are. Atheism doesn't mean 'hatred of Christians or any religious people'.

You...sir, haven't been paying attention. We have a very vocal one on this very board!

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

I have yet to meet a hateful, bigoted atheist. I have however met many religious people who are. Atheism doesn't mean 'hatred of Christians or any religious people'.

We have several here.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2369542

 

[werepossum]

If you're open to the public...you're open to the public regardless of the business owners bigotry imo. If the business owner is insulted in some way (e.g. gays flaunt their sexual orientation to intentionally anger him) he should be allowed to kick them out. Now, how to write that into law? I have no idea.

Edit: This brings to mind something that too many "righteous" Christians don't get. Jesus intentionally hung out with the lowest dregs of society...and the reason he did this was not to judge them, but to show them God's mercy and save them. God takes us all as we are...warts and all.

“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.” (Matthew 7:1–5)

Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment. (James 2:12-13)
​

This, and well said.

People claimed a religious objection to desegregation as well. They said mixing races was un-Christian.

If we allow religious objections to serving homosexuals, we allow religious objections to serving blacks, women, people with guns, people without guns, toaster lovers, you name it.

And also this.

If you're serving tacos out of your back room or renting out your garage apartment, fine, accommodate whomever you wish. Otherwise if you're in the business of serving the public, then serve the damned public regardless of your personal feelings.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Trying to anger him? What if it's two guys holding hands buying wedding rings? Is that intentionally angering behavior?



Warts, dregs, needs to be saved? Gay dollars help drive this economy big-time. In fact I'll be upgrading my desktop soon. Maybe I'll send a photo of me and my partner to Amazon to piss them off. I wonder if I'll get my stuff.

Respecting people different than you should be normative behavior in our society. Yeah...I'm a dreamer.