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Aren't all crimes hate crimes?

M

MadCowMax

Member
I was just reading through the message about free speech and KKK. Somone mentioned hate crimes. Other than being labeled by the media as 'crimes of love' when is a crime ever committed out of anything but hate?

EDIT
Had to change the topic before I got called on my grammar. 😉
Zippy I have NO idea what you are talking about.
Zippy, yet again I don't know what you're talking about! 😉

Don't they hate not having those things they are stealing?
 
Greed? Need? Desperation?

Muggers don't hate the people they mug- in fact I doubt they could care less what nationality, race, religion, etc. the muggee (😉) is- they just want the friggin money!

By the way, it is "grammar" not "grammer." Heh, you lost either way. 😉
 
no... what about petty theft like shoplifting. I don't think the homeless guy has some kind of grudge against the owner of the grocery store
 
That's exactly the point of hate crime legislation opponents (and my position as well). Murder is always going to be murder -- the motivation is going to be hateful simply because, by definition, it must be. If you kill someone because he's black or because he's been having sex with your wife, you've still killed him -- not much can lessen that. A death is a death is a death.

"Hate crime shoplifting" doesn't make much sense.

For other crimes, there's possibly a benefit to adding a "hate crime" element, but it's almost always used in connection with murder, from what I have seen. Assault and battery doesn't worsen with a racial intent -- it's still bad either way. Rape? Horrific no matter what the motivation. Kidnapping? Unsure about the frequency of "racial kidnapping". Robbery, larceny, burglary? There's only monetary loss there either way. Vandalism? That one could merit some additional penalty. There's one. Also related: arson. That's two.

I don't see the need really except in very isolated cases. In all likelihood, the racial element would be dropped in plea bargaining anyway.
 
How short sighted is this "murder is murder" argument? It isn't all about murders, its about the intent in any crime, not thoght crimes not "if" crimes not "maybe" crimes, it's about all crimes that are motivated by the irrational dislike of a person/persons for something for which they have not control over.









SHUX
 
are all crimes hate crimes? yes. do we need more laws to wedge divisions between different types of people? no. what if i'm half black and half white? would the hate crime law protect me or go against me?
 
<<Aren't all crimes hate crimes?>>

No. If a man or woman is starving and steals a loaf of bread that is hardly a hate crime.
 
How ignorant is this &quot;intent&quot; argument? Murder is not murder by definition without intent, yet the end result of that murder is the death of a human being (hence, HOMICIDE). Are you trying to say that the worth of a human being is determined by the intent of the killer? So, therefore, a black person's death is somehow more heinous than a white person's simply because the murderer was motivated by race to commit the crime? All men are not created equal, huh?
 
I don't care what a person's motivation is, killing someone is no better because there was a lack of &quot;racial motivation&quot;. I'll agree that all crimes are not hate crimes, but all premeditated murders are (killing someone while robbing a 7-11 can hardly be considered a &quot;hate crime&quot;, though it would certainly be a &quot;stupid crime&quot😉. If you plan the act of murder and carry through with it, it's a hate crime, I don't care if the person you kill is white, black, or polka-dotted. Besides, the penalty for premeditated murder should be the worst possible penalty. How can you make the worst possible penalty worse? In that respect &quot;hate crime&quot; laws baffle me. Do you want to execute the guy twice for the murder?

Zenmervolt

EDIT: Typo's
 
All crime is not hate crime, but crime exists because we are without Love. We are without Love because we have been taught to hate ourselves. If we have a future it is through self understanding.
 


<< So, therefore, a black person's death is somehow more heinous than a white person's simply because the murderer was motivated by race >>



No, and you know that's true. Let me say it a little more slowley.......its about the intent in any crime, whether its mugging, vandalism, or whatever.

[/b]WHO IS READY TO PULL THERE HEAD OUT OF THEIR ASS? IT ISN&quot;T ABOUT MURDER!









SHUX
 
Shux,
The problem I have with hate crimes legislation is exactly motive. Motive is relevant only in preventable crimes. If you believe that more punisment is going to prevent &quot;hate crimes&quot; then it becomes important. Otherwise, it's moot. I do not believe that murder is a preventable crime. Consider the place you would have to be mentally to take a life in malice. When in that situation, I doubt the consequences are in your thoughts. You are either depraved, or crazy.

Isn't the real issue here lack of proper, and speedy punishment on almost all serious crimes?

Let me repeat what the others here have said. Slowly. The intent is irrelevant. We punish the act, not the state of mind. Take the Bread stealing incident posted earlier, it is still theft isn't it? Does the store owner somehow lose less money to a needy theif? Your argument doesn't hold up. Many people are victims under circumstances for which they have no control. Not just minorities.

Another argument against this is the whole thought control issue. It is legal to hate anyone, for any reason. (although distasteful) Where do we draw the hate line? When its the cause of the crime? Where it contributes? When there are slurs thrown during the commision of the crime? How do we know for sure what's in the mind of a criminal? At what point does your belief system become unacceptable? Does the majority of the public have the right to force you to abandon your beliefs?

We consider motive during the sentencing, not when charging crimes.
 


<< In texas, when two trains meet each other, both must come to a compleate stop and neither is allowed to move until the other one has left >>



Boy Im sure those texas train drivers are really spitefull bastards arent they?

depends on how you define crime.

Is crime what is agaist the law or is crime what is deemed incorrect by society or is crime something that is morally wrong. what do we mean by society? whose morals are we judging this by?
 
do you think all those penententiary are really helpful ANYWAY? when something is done to battle igonrant hate organizations like KKK i wouldnt try to argue. you sophists with bitter attitude really need to get your heads outta your asses.
 
Brotherman,

This will in no way change the KKK. Their free speech and freedom of association are still protected, as they should be. Can't I get a better arguement than &quot;your head is in you ass&quot;? Help me extract it then. Convince me that the motive defines the crime. Where is there greater harm than the crime itself? I really don't believe the sentence prevents any beating, killing, or terrorizing. Hell, I think those commiting the crime want to shock and anger us. They want to be infamous.

Shalmanese, Crime, in this instnce is- What's against the law. Many immoral acts go unpunished, we can't argue them all here. In fact it seems we can't argue even one amicably.

Bluga, Huh? Can you try to be a little less cryptic?
 
You forget one word that's used in all murder trials: MOTIVE.

Self-defense vs pre-meditated muder??? Same result, what the difference?
 
GaryTcs,

in that sense, no punishment is really of any use, if someone is really up to commit a crime they would do it anyway, or even take someone under influence of halucinating drugs. what about accidental crimes? the whole point of penal system is moot then. why are we punishing them? what is accomplished by sentencing death penalty or sending someone to jail?

heads out of the ass comment was directed at those who obnoxiously try to forget 400 years of racial injustice and have to say something negative in any thread that has to do with contemporary civil right movements.
 
Pennstate, excellent point: what about self-defense? shouldnt that be eliminated as well? since motive is not an issue, the 'criminal' is to be punished equally right?
 
search on google for crazy laws, a lot of things are against the law, most of them are unintended.

I think you need a better definition of &quot;crime&quot; before we can argue something
 
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