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Are your For or Against women being allowed into ground combat positions

platinumike

Platinum Member
I should note that iam against it myself.


By Rowan Scarborough, The Washington Times

The all-male Green Berets are up in arms over a proposal to allow women to train as combat medics.

A top Army physician at its Special Operations Command proposed allowing female soldiers to enter combat medics training, touching off fears among Green Berets that the change could one day lead to female commandos.

The doctor's proposal triggered an angry letter from a course instructor.

"I need some help with what I see as a potential blow to the readiness and combat effectiveness of further special forces and Ranger medics, Navy Seal and Recon corpsmen," he wrote to two U.S. senators in Washington.

A copy of the letter, minus the medic's name, was provided to The Washington Times.

A senior officer at Fort Bragg, N.C., headquarters to Special Forces and the vaunted Delta Force anti-terrorism team, overruled the surgeon. But the Green Berets fear the debate will resonate north to Washington, where women's advocates will use the doctor's proposal to lobby for the change.

Col. Warner D. Farr, a former enlisted medic and now the command's surgeon, submitted an official request to delete the male-only designation for the Special Forces medic's course several weeks ago.

Special Forces units are closed to women as are all land combat jobs. The female students who might enter the course would come from the command's 528th Special Operations Support Battalion, a supply outfit. It includes noncombat female medics. Commandos opposed to women in combat feared that the women could evade the combat exclusion on a "technicality" since they are part of the command.

Commandos hope Maj. Gen. William Boykin, who headed Delta Force when its members engaged in the 1993 shootout in Somalia, has quashed the debate by overruling Col. Farr. Gen. Boykin heads the command's John F. Kennedy Warfare Center and School, which oversees Special Forces medic training.

In a statement to The Times from its public affairs office, the command said the doctor's proposal never got above the staff level.

"In a close review of [command] directive and applicable regulations, it was determined that the change recommended . . . is not needed. [The command] will follow current policy in determining who attends the [course]. The statement added, "The SO combat medic course is a joint course designed for interoperability among combat forces such as Rangers, special forces, Seals; and by law those combat elements are closed to women."

But Green Berets remain concerned. They fear that the Pentagon's Defense Advisory Committee on Women in the Services will use the debate at Fort Bragg to urge Defense Secretary William S. Cohen to open combat medics' training to women. The committee already is pressing the Navy to let women serve on submarines and the Army to allow women to join certain artillery units.

The 24-week medics course is a demanding test, as specially selected medics are transformed into special operations troops as tough as the warriors they treat.

The medic, in his letter to two senators, wrote:

"This is a combat medic course. During this course, students are trained to handle casualties under austere conditions and while in close proximity to the enemy. They are even trained to provide 'care under fire' for casualties. During the training, candidates willfully expose their patients enabling compete physical exams. They also perform several medical procedures on completely nude patients.

"They also perform many physically rigorous tasks. Students carry simulated combat loads. . . . This includes rucksack and weapon. At times these weights exceed 100 pounds. . . . The students will also carry a casualty in a jungle litter several kilometers, at night, through the woods, with complete combat load. If you ask any of my former students, they will tell you this is a real smoker and many were barely able to do it. . . . Keep in mind these are men that have passed the Ranger School, Seal and special forces assessment and selection programs, some of the toughest training in the military."

The medic instructor sent the letter to his two home-state senators, Rick Santorum and Arlen Specter, Pennsylvania Republicans. A spokesman for Mr. Santorum said the letter was referred to a Senate Armed Services subcommittee and to the commander of U.S. Special Operations Command in Tampa, Fla.

Roger Charles, a former Marine Corps officer and member of a group named Soldiers for the Truth, called it "lunacy" to bring women into Special Forces medic training.

"This is so stupid, it makes me want to both cry and laugh," said Mr. Charles, whose group believes the military is losing its warrior spirit. "It's a deadly serious issue, being treated as just another incremental advance for gender equality on the battlefield by the 'PC' crowd, who, by the way, don't have a clue about what it means to have to carry/drag a wounded Marine/ soldier while under fire from multiple machine guns."
 
They wanted equality. They've got it. I think a woman should be allowed into ground combat positions. They have a right to try😉)
 
If they pass all standarized tests (assuming they're the same ones men get, not easier) then why the f!ck not
 
As someone in the Infantry, I say sure if they look like Demi Moore 😉

Originally posted by: arcenite
If they pass all standarized tests (assuming they're the same ones men get, not easier) then why the f!ck not

In all seriousness, I agree. I think it is silly that they currently have two different physical tests, one for men and one for women. They should standardize the test and if you can pass it, you can continue one. If you can't, then you are out. Shouldn't matter if you are male/female.
 
Originally posted by: arcenite
Originally posted by: CRXican
don't think they could handle it

G.I. Jane was only a movie

Why wouldn't they be able to handle it?

Cuz they aren't crazy and stupid like us males. Besides, if it came down to it, male instinct will cause the guys to protect the females anyway.
 
Originally posted by: arcenite
Originally posted by: CRXican
don't think they could handle it

G.I. Jane was only a movie

Why wouldn't they be able to handle it?

I have no problem letting them do it, but the physical strength just isn't there in 90% of women.
 
Originally posted by: arcenite
Originally posted by: CRXican
don't think they could handle it

G.I. Jane was only a movie

Why wouldn't they be able to handle it?


Thins such as strength, and reliability, theese teams are detached in squads of 12. Maybe the other 11 dudes would feel uncomfortable if they had to rely on a woman to carry them out if there leg gets blown off or something. Sure there are some triathlon woman out there, but they are very rare.
 
Originally posted by: JeffCos
Originally posted by: arcenite
Originally posted by: CRXican
don't think they could handle it

G.I. Jane was only a movie

Why wouldn't they be able to handle it?

I have no problem letting them do it, but the physical strength just isn't therein 90% of women.

I agree, but this is why the physical test should be standardized. I'm all for the 10% having a shot at it. I've trained with some very capable women that I'd take over some men that I've trained with.
 
Man, when my ex had PMT you could put a gun in her hand and send her towards the enemy... they'd stand no chance.
 
I'm for it... But I don't the the idea of men who think they're women (also known as 'gay') in the military tho...
I can see the flamin' (no pun intended!) that's gonna come my way after that remark! hehehe
 
If they can do EXACTLY what a man can do then go for it, they are pretty masculine in which case but I'm all for it if that's what they want. Oh hell, just make all women and all men commando companies, making them equivalent but don't let em work together. 😕

 
I would say no because the interaction among men and women, *will* be different than among a group of guys. Also, women are just wired differently. I think that combat is no place for a woman.
 
Originally posted by: Sentinel
If they can do EXACTLY what a man can do then go for it, they are pretty masculine in which case but I'm all for it if that's what they want. Oh hell, just make all women and all men commando companies, making them equivalent but don't let em work together. 😕

ok so i see here that the general consensus is that women should be allowed if they can do everything that is expected and more.
 
Originally posted by: DainBramaged
I would say no because the interaction among men and women, *will* be different than among a group of guys. Also, women are just wired differently. I think that combat is no place for a woman.

I know some women who fit perfectly well in with a group of guys and the conversation or attitude in the room doesn't really change. Sure, they might not be super common but these women should be given a chance IMO.
 
Originally posted by: russianpower
They wanted equality. They've got it. I think a woman should be allowed into ground combat positions. They're just as capable as men.
Negative all around. It's not equal now because they have different tests and standards. They have different test and standards because they can't complete the same ones as men. Therefore they are NOT just as capable as men, physically.

It comes down to this. If I'm injured and someone has to carry me off the field, is the woman who passed the lowered PT bar as capable as a man at dealing with the situation? If they could, why can't they pass the same tests as men?

If they can pass the men's test, sure let them at it. I'm against anyone who can't handle the job. This is the Army, not the office.
 
For, although almost none of them will be able to pass unbiased training in something like the SEALS, considering so many highly conditioned physically superior men fail.
 
Originally posted by: russianpower
They wanted equality. They've got it. I think a woman should be allowed into ground combat positions. They're just as capable as men.


The problem is that they're not.

In the past, women have lobbied to get into many male-only positions, then sued when they weren't able to pass the intense physical training that all recruits are required to pass.

The were certain requirements that the military felt all members would need. Things like being able to carry 130 lbs on your back while running xxx miles. Requirements like this ensured that the recruits were strong enough to do the job. Women got into the program but failed to pass the physical requirements. They sued and got the military to lower the requirements, undermining the goal of the program, which was to ensure that all recruits are strong enough to perform their task.

Imagine if you were in battle and you got wounded. In the old days you could be damn sure that the soldier next to you could pick you up and carry you to safety. Nowadays, the PC trend allows the weak to enter positions once reserved for the strong. The person next to you now might not be able to carry you because she's not strong enough to carry that much weight.

If a woman can pass the same EXACT test that a man can, then fine. It's not likely though since nearly all STRONG MEN can't make it into those elite groups. But I am 100% against lowering the standards to allow more women to enter

 
Women in general perhaps couldn't due to lack of physical strength, but there are some women who could so we should focus on those ones.

 
Originally posted by: arcenite
Originally posted by: CRXican
don't think they could handle it

G.I. Jane was only a movie

Why wouldn't they be able to handle it?

For the same reasons that Chicago made it easier for woman to pass the fireman test. They couldn't handle the test the men went through, so the city reduced the test requirements, thus increasing the risk to both firemen and citizens. I'm not saying there isn't one women who could do it, but the requirements should be the same and not scaled down for the sole purpose of passing a women.
 
Originally posted by: Skoorb
For, although almost none of them will be able to pass unbiased training in something like the SEALS, considering so many highly conditioned physically superior men fail.

yup. SEALs Rangers Special Forces, etc. all require such enormous ammount of physical strenth, that its not even physical anymore, its become mental. I dont think women have the mental brain and things like testosterone,etc. But I guess GI Jane is giving theese women a pipe dream.
 
Originally posted by: platinumike
Originally posted by: Sentinel
If they can do EXACTLY what a man can do then go for it, they are pretty masculine in which case but I'm all for it if that's what they want. Oh hell, just make all women and all men commando companies, making them equivalent but don't let em work together. 😕

ok so i see here that the general consensus is that women should be allowed if they can do everything that is expected and more.

No, you stupid wise and beautiful woman, the "general consensus" is that women should be allowed if they meet the established standards. And while you're at it, put some Visine in and find your Shift key.

- M4H
 
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