Are you watching Europe implode?

[Red Dawn]

Corporatism and socialism are both creations by the left wing. Too bad you're too stupid to realize.

I think that honey bucket you've been drinking from has warped your brain.

 

[HendrixFan]

Negative. The hugest part of the budget is entitlements like social security, medicare/medicaid and welfare. This is why we're next. We're trying to follow in the proven failures of socialism as can be seen in Eurpope.

Medicare/Medicaid and Social Security have run surpluses for decades, they have more than paid for themselves. If the excess was kept aside there would be no impending disaster trying to pay out benefits as the scale tips. The only "failure" of "socialism" like Medicare/Medicaid/SS is that they were looted for decades and once they no longer bring in a massive surplus to be usurped, the rest of the government doesn't know what to do to support ($$$) itself.

 

[nCred]

I don't know why people are discussing welfare and healthcare, that has very little to do with this crisis. If you look at the whole EU, the budget deficits are 6,8 % of GDP compared to 10 % for the US. Welfare country no.1 Sweden had a budget deficit of 0,5 % in 2009 according to these numbers.
Link

The Problem is that some countries for different reasons are destabilizing the Eurozone. Some have spent irresponsibly for years without having the economy for it, like Greece and Spain. Ireland was hit very badly by the financial crisis.

 

[sandorski]

I don't know why people are discussing welfare and healthcare, that has very little to do with this crisis. If you look at the whole EU, the budget deficits are 6,8 % of GDP compared to 10 % for the US. Welfare country no.1 Sweden had a budget deficit of 0,5 % in 2009 according to these numbers.
Link

The Problem is that some countries for different reasons are destabilizing the Eurozone. Some have spent irresponsibly for years without having the economy for it, like Greece and Spain. Ireland was hit very badly by the financial crisis.

Scapegoating, laziness, and Ideological opposition.

 

[Jhhnn]

Medicare/Medicaid and Social Security have run surpluses for decades, they have more than paid for themselves. If the excess was kept aside there would be no impending disaster trying to pay out benefits as the scale tips. The only "failure" of "socialism" like Medicare/Medicaid/SS is that they were looted for decades and once they no longer bring in a massive surplus to be usurped, the rest of the government doesn't know what to do to support ($$$) itself.

"Kept aside" isn't really the right way to put it. To do that, the govt would have needed to invest the funds in the private sector for them to hold value, or to have created businesses competing with the private sector. Either would have been politically unacceptable to conservatives.

The real problem is all the other, higher priority debt that's been created through the combination of over-spending and under-taxing from Reagan forward. The vast majority of that debt was created under repub admins, and is held by the investor class, the people who benefited most from Repub tax policy.

The SS trust comprises only ~$3T of the total federal debt. If that and the $1T debt that existed when Reagan took office were the only debt, we'd be pretty much worry-free wrt debt.

 

[Rebel44]

I don't know why people are discussing welfare and healthcare, that has very little to do with this crisis. If you look at the whole EU, the budget deficits are 6,8 % of GDP compared to 10 % for the US. Welfare country no.1 Sweden had a budget deficit of 0,5 % in 2009 according to these numbers.
Link

The Problem is that some countries for different reasons are destabilizing the Eurozone. Some have spent irresponsibly for years without having the economy for it, like Greece and Spain. Ireland was hit very badly by the financial crisis.

I agree.

 

[IGBT]

“The euro is doomed,” said Andrew Wilkinson, senior market analyst at Interactive Brokers Group LLC in Greenwich, Connecticut. “It’s like a clown without its makeup. The strains among the partners are becoming clear and it’s becoming harder to see global growth not being threatened by this.”

 

[tommo123]

i wonder if there's any chance of the UK, Germany and France basically dumping the weaker/poorer countries and joining in some new alliance?

 

[sMiLeYz]

I don't know why people are discussing welfare and healthcare, that has very little to do with this crisis. If you look at the whole EU, the budget deficits are 6,8 % of GDP compared to 10 % for the US. Welfare country no.1 Sweden had a budget deficit of 0,5 % in 2009 according to these numbers.
Link

The Problem is that some countries for different reasons are destabilizing the Eurozone. Some have spent irresponsibly for years without having the economy for it, like Greece and Spain. Ireland was hit very badly by the financial crisis.

This is the heart of it, the euro was a very bad idea for some it's members to begin with.

What's happen is the financial crises have essentially made ALL advanced nations poorer, with drop in asset prices and financial sector profits.

Entitlements have very little to do with the problems at hand.

 

[BoberFett]

I think that honey bucket you've been drinking from has warped your brain.

Suddenly I'm craving a peanut butter and honey sandwich.

 

[freegeeks]

i wonder if there's any chance of the UK, Germany and France basically dumping the weaker/poorer countries and joining in some new alliance?

the UK has not adopted the euro and is basically also one of the weaker countries

 

[werepossum]

Why are you saying wow?

It's pretty common for the total taxation amount to approach 60% in European countries.

Just remember that next time says "Let's be like Europe". How the hell do you think they finance all that cool stuff, like government enforced vacation periods, maternity leaves for fathers, etc.

60% taxation is "wow" land in my book.

Funny story - I once worked for a wrecker manufacturer that bought the American distribution rights to a Swedish wrecker company. Almost right after we bought it, it went bankrupt. I was speaking with a Swedish guy a couple months later and told him the story, and he had a good laugh. He told me smallish Swedish companies almost always go bankrupt because the income tax after a certain level is around 90 - 95%, so the owners pay themselves exorbitant salaries that the companies can't possibly support. The owners get modestly rich even after the confiscatory taxes, the company files bankruptcy, the government takes it over and auctions it, and the whole thing begins again. This is a system that progressives find very alluring.

 

[werepossum]

I don't know why people are discussing welfare and healthcare, that has very little to do with this crisis. If you look at the whole EU, the budget deficits are 6,8 % of GDP compared to 10 % for the US. Welfare country no.1 Sweden had a budget deficit of 0,5 % in 2009 according to these numbers.
Link

The Problem is that some countries for different reasons are destabilizing the Eurozone. Some have spent irresponsibly for years without having the economy for it, like Greece and Spain. Ireland was hit very badly by the financial crisis.

Let's see, this irresponsible spending was on:
(A) Unicorns and rainbows.
(B) Missiles and nuclear warheads.
(C) NASCAR and bluegrass festivals.
(D) Welfare and "free" health care.

Seeing why people are discussing welfare and "free' health care yet?

 

[nCred]

60% taxation is "wow" land in my book.

Funny story - I once worked for a wrecker manufacturer that bought the American distribution rights to a Swedish wrecker company. Almost right after we bought it, it went bankrupt. I was speaking with a Swedish guy a couple months later and told him the story, and he had a good laugh. He told me smallish Swedish companies almost always go bankrupt because the income tax after a certain level is around 90 - 95%, so the owners pay themselves exorbitant salaries that the companies can't possibly support. The owners get modestly rich even after the confiscatory taxes, the company files bankruptcy, the government takes it over and auctions it, and the whole thing begins again. This is a system that progressives find very alluring.

You have no idea what you are taking about, the corporate tax rate in Sweden is 28 % LINK That's lower than in the US. The highest income tax you can ever pay is around 60 %.

Let's see, this irresponsible spending was on:
(A) Unicorns and rainbows.
(B) Missiles and nuclear warheads.
(C) NASCAR and bluegrass festivals.
(D) Welfare and "free" health care.

Seeing why people are discussing welfare and "free' health care yet?

Nice to see you missed the point. Some countries spend much more on welfare than Greece. Greece actually has one of the lowest tax rates in the EU. The point is you can't spend a lot more than you make. BTW Greece military expenditure is the highest in EU if you compare with GDP LINK

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

the UK has not adopted the euro and is basically also one of the weaker countries

was just about to post this.
the UK ain't doing to great themselves.

 

[StageLeft]

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/financ...ess-blocks-indiscriminate-imf-aid-for-europe/

According to Ambrose, "The US Senate has voted 94:0 to block use of taxpayers’ money for IMF rescues that make no economic sense or bail-outs for countries like Greece that far are beyond the point of no return."

 

[nick1985]

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/financ...ess-blocks-indiscriminate-imf-aid-for-europe/

According to Ambrose, "The US Senate has voted 94:0 to block use of taxpayers’ money for IMF rescues that make no economic sense or bail-outs for countries like Greece that far are beyond the point of no return."

Good to hear.

 

[cubeless]

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/financ...ess-blocks-indiscriminate-imf-aid-for-europe/

According to Ambrose, "The US Senate has voted 94:0 to block use of taxpayers’ money for IMF rescues that make no economic sense or bail-outs for countries like Greece that far are beyond the point of no return."

but dodd says that the amendment will probably be modified... so they get the headline of standing against, but watch the real bill in a couple weeks...

and the euro going to parity with the usd would make an interesting situation, methinks... we can get coolie-made products out of the euro zone? the only problem there is that even the east euros have forgotten what hard work is about, but a bunch of them might be willing to pollute like the chins to take advantage of the shift in export patterns...

 

[bamacre]

Good to hear.

I guess it is "good to hear," as in, it sounds good. :\

 

[Mursilis]

I created the Greece thread, but this is now clearly beyond Greece. Greece's "implosion" has had a stay of execution by a sizable bailout, the strings attached to it being substantial austerity measures imposed primarily on the public sector (pay cuts, for example).

Forgive the singularity of my source, but Telegraph is not a fly by night, so with that:

Spain cuts public-sector wages by 5%, among other things
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...udget-primacy-over-sovereign-parliaments.html

New austerity coming down the pike from Portugal (scant on specifics)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...gal-takes-it-punishment-with-fresh-taxes.html

Ireland surely isn't far behind. These countries have already suffered hugely from the recession, and the austerity measures, which realistically are needed (IMO), are going to put them close to or into something more resembling a depression (though I think a modern-day depression is far less depressing than one 80 years ago).

Many feel the European Union experiment is approaching its zenith.

When are you going to kick off the "Are you watching the U.S. implode?" thread? Sure, it's early, but it's probably also inevitable.

 

[zephyrprime]

The problem with all these austerity programs is that they are deflationary. The EU must increase liquidity to offset the deflationary pressures of austerity programs or the programs will fail due to gdp contraction.

 

[cubeless]

The problem with all these austerity programs is that they are deflationary. The EU must increase liquidity to offset the deflationary pressures of austerity programs or the programs will fail due to gdp contraction.

now i get it... the gov't has to provide more fiat cash to keep supporting the programs that they can't afford because to stop would make it so people can't keep buying stuff they couldn't afford in the first place and their economies will contract so that the tax revenue will keep declining...

there's a storm a'commin'...

 

[StageLeft]

When are you going to kick off the "Are you watching the U.S. implode?" thread? Sure, it's early, but it's probably also inevitable.

I hope I don't have to. Perhaps proximity gives me stiffer standards but not until things are truly dire would I do it.

The problem with all these austerity programs is that they are deflationary. The EU must increase liquidity to offset the deflationary pressures of austerity programs or the programs will fail due to gdp contraction.

Yes, but the reason they have to happen in the first place is an excess of easy money. It's a nasty pickle they've put themselves into.

 

[Mursilis]

I hope I don't have to. Perhaps proximity gives me stiffer standards but not until things are truly dire would I do it.

I hope you don't have to either, but I can't see the US as anything other than Greece minus 30 years or so. I don't think the question regarding US fiscal crisis is no longer if, but when.

 

[sandorski]

I hope you don't have to either, but I can't see the US as anything other than Greece minus 30 years or so. I don't think the question regarding US fiscal crisis is no longer if, but when.

A lot can happen in 30 years.